Author Topic: Combustible paper cartridges  (Read 8316 times)

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Offline Cornbelt

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2010, 03:58:57 PM »
  Sounds like you hit on the right formula for being left alone!

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2010, 06:42:44 AM »
Nope... Ain't been to the range in months...  :-[  Always Honey-do's on the weekend and when I do get some free time I just want relax.  Usually I sit in the man cave, drink likker, smoke cigaretts and play with explosives...  :P

Nothin' wrong with that! I just thought you might want to try a few before you launch into mass production.
 I've been building rockets but it's been so dry and fire danger so high I haven't wanted to test them. Then the thought occurs to me like "dang, I have all these rockets and I don't know if any of them will fly". ;D  But it's been raining for a couple of days now so time to fire off a few!
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2010, 01:08:50 PM »
I tried the paper cartages with cigarette papers , but found it to be more work than it was worth to me.
                                         Beerbelly

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2010, 06:38:17 AM »
I tried the paper cartages with cigarette papers , but found it to be more work than it was worth to me.
                                         Beerbelly
[/quote

 I'd venture a guess that most who have tried it would tend to agree. ;D
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2010, 08:09:23 AM »
... found it to be more work than it was worth to me.

... most who have tried it would tend to agree. ;D

Well, maybe you right...  :-\   But I have found that I hate measuring out powder and pouring it into each cylinder at the bench during extended shooting sessions.  Solution:  prepackaged powder charges.   ;D

I also determined I didn't like smearing lube over the chamber mouths; messy and time consuming.   :-\  solution:  use a lubed over powder wad.   ;D

Problem:  I haven't found an easy way to roll the powder, wad and ball into one package.   :(
Solution:  just premeasure/package the powder charge only.   ;D  then it's just a matter of dropping the combustable paper package into a cylinder and follow it with a wad and ball!  How easy is that!     :D

Saaaaaaaay....  :-\  If I could glue the wad to the ball... like with beeswax... :P
Richard
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2010, 10:06:24 AM »
                            AtlLaw I have a double barrel 12, that for dove hunting, I pre- package the powder and shot in separate coin wrappers. But for my 51 I just measure it out.

Offline Cornbelt

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2010, 05:43:05 PM »
With a .31 I use a round pencil and stick the paper to the bullet while rolling.
 Thought about getting fancy and using a hollow pencil so I could dump in the powder before I slid it off. But I ain't tried it yet.

Offline NickSS

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2010, 01:19:50 AM »
I make combustable cartridges pretty much like described in this thread.  To store a supply of then to take with me when woods walking I made two cartridge blocks similar to what was used way back in the 1860s.  I got some soft pine bords and had them planed down to 1/4 inch thick and long enough to fit in my pistol cartridge box that is a copy of a CW one.  I clamp two boards together and clamp them in my drill press and bored six 15/32" holes with my drill press. I lay six cartridges in one half of the block, place the other half over it and wrap the black with a strip of paper and glue it together.  I also place a piece of sting along the top of the block.  Two of these blocks fit in my cartridge box for twelve reloads and as the box has a double flap it is protected against rain fairly well.  The blocks hold the ball reasonably tight so the cartridges do not shift around and get busted.  I have been using the same two blocks for about 25 years now and they work well.

Offline chihuahua floyd

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2010, 04:04:34 PM »
I've tried the combustable catridge once.  Used the paper that you use when you buy gas station doughnuts.  Rolled cylinder on tapered dowel, capped with small square and glue stick, powder and ball lubed with Lee Liquid alox.
Use a large irrigation syringe to lube after loading into cylinder.
CF
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2010, 06:56:03 PM »
With a .31 I use a round pencil and stick the paper to the bullet while rolling.
 Thought about getting fancy and using a hollow pencil so I could dump in the powder before I slid it off. But I ain't tried it yet.

Might make it work with some copper tubing ;)  Then just find the length you need and push a plug down to that depth.  Then it'll be hollow and leave your powder in the paper.  8)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline mrussel

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2010, 07:09:23 PM »
Hey Billy!
Actually I have a 36 and a 44.  The cartridges I made were for the 36.

I had a cigarette rolling machine 'bout 50 years ago.  But it didn't use pre-rolled papers.  Seems to me I saw something like you're talking about, but it was also long ago.   :-\

And even if you found some they'd proably be more expensive then what effort you saved rolling your own.  And I don't know how those pre-rolled papers would survive nitrating.   :-\

Finally,  ;D  since I quit smoking there isn't a cigarette around here for me to measure.  I think they are a good bit bigger around then the 36's chambers though.

Think I'll make some 44's!   ;D



 I actually had one of those about 15 or 20 years ago. (OMG,it was THAT LONG AGO!) Mine used standard papers. It took almost as much skill to roll one in the machine as it did to do it by hand.

Offline jlchucker

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2010, 02:34:09 PM »
I found a couple of my old paper cartridges that I made with cigarette paper about 20 years ago.  I used to use Bugler brand papers.  Since that time, I have to agree with Beerbelly.  Except for the purposes of carrying a few extra rounds while woodswalking without having to lug a flask and loose balls, making cartridges up is more trouble than it's worth.  I don't smoke, so don't pay much attention at the general store to those that buy cigarettes--but a couple of weeks ago, someone walked into our local store and asked for cigarette papers.  They got carded--much the same as when kids try to buy beer!!  For cigarette PAPER no less!!!  I glanced at the cigarette shelf behind the counter.  These days there's more than just Bugler there--I never realized that rolling was so popular LOL!  I used to roll my cartridges in 36 and 44, but round ball only. I rolled them one at a time around a wooden mandrel that I made from a tapered piece of dowel.  Never thought of one of those cigarette machines.  How would you get the finished product tapered enough to load into a cylinder?   For just plinking purposes these days  like Beerbelly implies, I'll avoid all of that preparation and stick with loose powder and ball and load my gun as I go along.


Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2010, 03:37:42 PM »
It is a bit of work, but I tell ya, in one way it's worth it.  The boys sat around deer camp watching me load my Dragoon talking about how much time it took.  The big time consumer is measuring the powder.  Now that's not a problem if you only load the cylinder once a week.  But if I want to shoot some, it gets a little wearysome.   :-\  So, having pre-measured charges available to drop in the cylinder speeds things up quite a bit!   ;D

'sides, like I said, the prepacked cartridges look cool!   8)
Richard
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Offline Cornbelt

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2010, 03:44:59 PM »
A spare cyl is pretty cool too.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2010, 04:02:10 PM »
I understand the CBA shooters that use C&B revolvers are big on the spare cylinders.  And I was just reading where it wasn't uncommon for Cavalry Troopers to carry a spare or two.  'course if it's good enough for Clint Eastwood it should be good enough for me, but... :-\
Richard
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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2010, 05:15:32 PM »
Just a heads up guys, this issue (nov/dec '10) of backwoodsman mag has an interesting article on the manufacture of foil cartridges for our C&B revolvers.  I have one spare cylinder for my remmie that comes in handy for the range. just moved this spring and will hopefully be getting my garage/shop built this next spring/summer. I'll have room to pick up the hobbies in earnest again. Sure hate having stuff scattered.

Atlaw, do you have a flask with pre set spout, or are you measuring each charge seperatly?  The flask really speeds it up. Either way C&B's are way fun. I find that I want (need  ???)a few more of them. Have been thinking of a "snubbie" made from a 1861 .36 or a '51 navy. Thought about leaving the loading lever holes in place so the loader could still be used. Kind of a slip pin to fix it in place, but yet removable. Soo many posibilities  ;D   ;D

Offline Cornbelt

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2010, 12:33:34 AM »
  Foil, hmm; I know they use that for cannon shooting, but I hadn't thought about using it for a handgun.
  Seems gum wrappers are foil, and maybe thin enough to blast to bits. Might have to try some out.
  Of course there's always gold leaf, too.

Offline jlchucker

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2010, 04:05:04 AM »
It is a bit of work, but I tell ya, in one way it's worth it.  The boys sat around deer camp watching me load my Dragoon talking about how much time it took.  The big time consumer is measuring the powder.  Now that's not a problem if you only load the cylinder once a week.  But if I want to shoot some, it gets a little wearysome.   :-\  So, having pre-measured charges available to drop in the cylinder speeds things up quite a bit!   ;D

'sides, like I said, the prepacked cartridges look cool!   8)

You're right in what you say, Atlaw.  It is worth it if you're going to carry your dragoon in the situation you describe.  Pouring powder out of a flask, placing a ball, ramming and greasing before putting on a cap is wearysome.  Lots easier in the field to have a dozen or so paper cartridges at the ready.  But if you're banging away at a shooting range during a pleasant afternoon, loading time is less of an issue IMO, and for that purpose, at least to me, making up cartridges ahead of time at home isn't something I'd care to spend time on.  A couple of matchboxes of paper cartridges in a belt pouch or pocket in the field though, can make your revolver loading process a lot quicker and easier and you don't have to lug all of that other stuff around with you.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2010, 05:06:42 AM »
Atlaw, do you have a flask with pre set spout, or are you measuring each charge seperatly?

I've got a flask with a spout, but I don't use it.   :-[  I'm pretty anal and it just seems to me there are to many variables for me to worry about.  So I measure each charge.  Once I settle on what my standard charge will be for each revolver, target and full power, I may take the time to throw and weigh a hundred or so charges and see if I can convince myself of the consistency of that method!   ;D

  Foil, hmm; ...  Of course there's always gold leaf, too.

 :D  I think I'll stick with my nitrated cigaret papers!   :D

A couple of matchboxes of paper cartridges in a belt pouch or pocket in the field though, can make your revolver loading process a lot quicker and easier and you don't have to lug all of that other stuff around with you.

My thoughs exactly!   ;D  I've got a little tin that holds 6 reloads for my Navy.  As you say, the matchbox does well for the 44's.  I drop in the combustable paper wrapped powder charge, seat a felt wad lubed with gatefou's formula and seat the ball.

But you notice that is still 3 seperate operations!   :-\  I can make combustable cartridges that contain powder and ball, no problem... But the smearing of lube over the chamber mouths is a pain!   :(  So I still be cogitating on wrapping the whole shooting match  :P, powder, wad and ball, in one piece of nitrated paper!   ;D  I figger that those, along with my snail capper, would let me load six a them pretty quick like!   ;D
Richard
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Offline jlchucker

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2010, 10:45:23 AM »

But you notice that is still 3 seperate operations!   :-\  I can make combustable cartridges that contain powder and ball, no problem... But the smearing of lube over the chamber mouths is a pain!   :(  So I still be cogitating on wrapping the whole shooting match  :P, powder, wad and ball, in one piece of nitrated paper!   ;D  I figger that those, along with my snail capper, would let me load six a them pretty quick like!   ;D

I never tried this, but there may be a way to eliminate the greasing process. How about when you make up the cartridge, you do this:  Fabricate the cone shaped cig paper, fold the bottom over and paste it shut.  put in the powder and insert the ball, then place a greased felt wad over the ball.  Fold the big end of the cartridge paper in crimp fashion over the whole thing and glue it in place with paper paste. That way, when you load, you'll be loading powder, ball, and wad in all in one step.  So what if the rammer tears the paper that's over the wad--all of the contents will be in the cylinder anyway, and you'll have a loaded round, sealed with a greased wad.  Now, including capping, you've got a 2 step process instead of 3.  Atlaw, maybe you've tried this approach already?  If so, any problems? No matter how you cut it, the cartridges are going to be fragile--but that would only matter up until you rammed them into each of their respective chambers.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2010, 11:00:30 AM »
maybe you've tried this approach already?

Ah, great minds and all that!   ;D  I thought of placing the wad on top of the ball rather then between the charge and the ball.  It seemed to me that would eliminate the possibility of the grease contaminating the powder charge.  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber...

I remember a discussion here about this very thing; covering the ball with a greased wad.  In response, a member mentioned something about the possibility of the wad becoming a bore obstruction, snagging on the cylinder gap on the way out or some such thing.

I shouldn't think that would be likely, but...  :-\
Richard
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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2010, 11:52:27 AM »
I think I would avoid the wad in front as well. Haven't used grease since '69 or '70 IIRC. The wads really simplify it IMO. Haven't really stopped to think about loss of powder capacity. I typically don't shoot absolute max loads anyway.

 Gold leaf! That could get some looks at the range! LOL!  Just paint the balls gold and open a box of those up at the range and wait for the looks and comments. Could add to the effect of eccentricity if you hired a limo to take you.

 I don't have a chrono, but have had pretty consistent results with a flask for a number of years. I also have a measure that throws in 1 grain increments that I bought at a black powder shoot show a number of years ago. Thought I would get down to the nitty gritty and figure out which revolver liked what charge the absolute best. But I don't shoot competition so have just kept it carefree and fun for now. Always later I 'spose. Too busy shooting when I can to get all intricate  ;D I doubt the fun will ever wear off.

Offline jlchucker

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2010, 03:21:56 AM »
maybe you've tried this approach already?

Ah, great minds and all that!   ;D  I thought of placing the wad on top of the ball rather then between the charge and the ball.  It seemed to me that would eliminate the possibility of the grease contaminating the powder charge.  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber...

I remember a discussion here about this very thing; covering the ball with a greased wad.  In response, a member mentioned something about the possibility of the wad becoming a bore obstruction, snagging on the cylinder gap on the way out or some such thing.

I shouldn't think that would be likely, but...  :-\

Whether the wad is over or under the ball, using the member's logic, then why wouldn't an under-the-ball wad also be an obstruction risk when one fires off shot 2, 3, 4, or 5?  Either way, I'd think the exploding powder charge of each shot would push both wad and ball out of the barrel, cylinder gap or not. Lots of force going off right at face of the chamber, I would think.  Otherwise, we'd never have gotten beyond the single shot stage in the first place IMO. Myself, I just used a tube of lube and squeeze some over the rammed cartridge, without wads.  Borebutter works pretty good for this. I guess this winter would be a good time to show my card at the store, buy some cigarette papers, whittle me up a dowel-mandrel, and try some wad experiments. This thread has got me intrigued again.

Offline Sir Charles deMoutonBlack

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2010, 04:07:47 PM »
I haven't posted on this thread yet, but I guess I'll throw my 2 bits in.

I've made paper cartridges using Timuchins method.  They worked OK if you made the cigarette paper tube small enough to slip easily into the chamber.  In soggy weather like we get here in coastal British Columbia, I found them falling apart before they got properly started.

On the old frontier spot a fellow posted a tip that caught my attention.  He was loading for an 1862 Police.  He measured his charged into a fired .38 Special case and topped it off with the ball pressed onto the mouth of the case.  In use, he thumbed the ball off the top, tipped the powder into the chamber, tucked a wad in followed by the ball.  Ram & prime and your goodtago!

For a Navy .36s, I found I needed a .357 mag case, and a .44 mag case for the Army .44s.

Carrying the preloaded cases was easy.  For range or competition use, a .44/.45 plastic ammo box does the trick.  For walk-about, I wrapped 5 or 6 preloaded cases in a 4 inch square of foil.  Two packs tuck into a cap pouch quite conveniently.  I cap with a straight line capper.  One of my "rountoit" projects is to make a neck-knife sheath with a leather tube to hold the capper along side the knife.  Tucked inside a shirt or jacket it is protected from the weather, and the stiffness of the knife/sheath combo would give it some protection from an accident, besides being handy to get to.  With this system you don't need a cluttered possibles bag, just the cap pouch and neck knife/capper combo.

Offline Bear Rider

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2010, 03:08:49 PM »
I found that the key to making cartridges is to split the process up into a series of simple tasks that I can do while watching televion or listening to music, aural books, etc. I have all my components and tools in a box that I can hold in my lap.

I make paper cartridges, pretty much like everyone else, with few exceptions. Like most, I use a tapered dowel, so the cartridge splits when it's seated. I use a glue stick and zigzag papers for the convenience.

I process my cartridges in a series of batches, 50 or 60 at a time. First, I make up a batch of paper tubes while sitting and watching television.

On the next pass, I close up the breech end of the tube and glue it.

Next, I pour in the powder and glue a ball in place.

Now, off to the kitchen. I had some initial difficulties with the balls coming lose during handling, but then hit upon a solution. I melt beeswax in a double boiler consisting of a tin can in a pot of water. When the wax is molten, I dip the ball end of each cartridges up to the equator. This secures the ball in places and provides a lubricant.

Finally, I make up packets of either 5 or 6 cartridges, wrapped in tinfoil. The resultant brick is easy to handle and quite durable. I can drop them in a belt pouch without worrying about them. I don't know how waterproof they are, but they should be water resistant.
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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2010, 07:12:32 PM »
Bear Rider, that sounds good, do you end up with enough bees wax on the cartridge that it seals the chamber mouth as well?? Do you "prick" the cartridges before capping, or do you get the paper to break before or during loading? There was a similar method posted an issue or two ago in Backwoodsman magazine. It sounded good. Sadly I have to wait for a garage to be built so I can get some tinkering space back after moving. Good shooting.

Offline jlchucker

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2010, 02:18:21 AM »
I found that the key to making cartridges is to split the process up into a series of simple tasks that I can do while watching televion or listening to music, aural books, etc. I have all my components and tools in a box that I can hold in my lap.

I make paper cartridges, pretty much like everyone else, with few exceptions. Like most, I use a tapered dowel, so the cartridge splits when it's seated. I use a glue stick and zigzag papers for the convenience.

I process my cartridges in a series of batches, 50 or 60 at a time. First, I make up a batch of paper tubes while sitting and watching television.

On the next pass, I close up the breech end of the tube and glue it.

Next, I pour in the powder and glue a ball in place.

Now, off to the kitchen. I had some initial difficulties with the balls coming lose during handling, but then hit upon a solution. I melt beeswax in a double boiler consisting of a tin can in a pot of water. When the wax is molten, I dip the ball end of each cartridges up to the equator. This secures the ball in places and provides a lubricant.

Finally, I make up packets of either 5 or 6 cartridges, wrapped in tinfoil. The resultant brick is easy to handle and quite durable. I can drop them in a belt pouch without worrying about them. I don't know how waterproof they are, but they should be water resistant.

Bear Rider, that's almost exactly the way I used to do it.  You've taken it a step further with that business of melted beeswax.  Interesting.  I was pasting cigarette paper over the leading part of the ball with paper paste--the beeswax thing never entered my mind. this may be the lube solution that Atlaw has been looking for.  The tinfoil packet that you describe is pretty much the same as I've used--placing the bullets in rows alternating the breech ends fore and aft, for a nice square packet.  My packets were in groups of 5.  Earlier I had mentioned the use of small matchboxes.  I was carrying my foil packets (44 cal) in those for additional protection from damage. Two packets would fit nicely into a cap pouch.  One question:  Do you use straight beeswax, or have you softened it a bit with something? I'm guessing that in a cold, frozen climate that the beeswax coating could break away completely during the ramming process--but maybe not. 

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2010, 05:30:24 AM »
I was wondering if gatefo's BP lube would work.   :-\

Does your beeswax dip get scraped off when the ball is seated?

Maybe a caliber sized cup of melted lube to stick the loaded cartridge in, let it harded so when you take it out it forms a lube cookie over the top of the ball?
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Offline goodshot

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2010, 09:20:37 AM »
dipped in lube, wow you guys are great!
Atlaw, did you find the stuff I sent of help, I hope so.
How about a small ball of lube on top of the powder and then the ball?
lead shot can be made in a shot tower, molten lead dribbles into water. liquid could be dribbled into water to make small pellets of lube, rate of flow, size of orifice, etc can be varied.
best wishes,
 :)

Offline Cornbelt

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Re: Combustible paper cartridges
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2011, 04:34:47 PM »
  You ain't gonna believe this. The better half had me doing "pantry duty" and I actually found my own skins wrapped around pdr & ball.
  I think I better hurry up and shoot "myself" before I forget where I put myself. I hope I can ignite myself when I pull the trigger.
  If I can get the better half to do camera duty, I'll have her post it.