BL-C2/(WC846) or W748 in 30-06

[carbineman]

Most of my 30-06 loading has been done with H414 or W760. I have exhausted my supply of surplus equivalent and loaded my last 414 for the Garand and would like to load some 130 grain bullets for a recently traded for 22 inch -06 NEF barrel .

For the 130 grain bullet loading, the only choices I will consider are BL-C2/(WC846) or W 748. This is because I have alot of these three propellants and I have pretty much consolidated all my components. In other words I ain't buying no more, I'm using up what I have. I have about 50 commercial brass and that'll do me fine.

Any real bad stories using this faster burning propellant or problems I might encounter? Let me know. Thanks ........carbineman

[Siskiyou]

Carbineman:  I just read your post and recognized the problem.  Recently had a couple of relatives over reloading for their 30-06’s.  For years I provided components but my message has changed to you need to provide some components.  In the past I had used H4831 and H414 for loading the -06 with 165-grain bullets.  This time around being they were buying we found one container of WW760, and no H414.  I am hoarding a small amount of H414 for my 243.That fell short of what was need because they had close to two hundred cases.

At that point the day was shot and I offered to load the SIL remaining cases using BL-C (2) courtesy of Gun Runner.  I explained to him that BL-C(2) loads were going to be about 80 fps slower than the WW760/H414 loads with the 165-grain Remington C-L.  He was fine with it.  I loaded twenty rounds with it, and started looking for another option because I am a nice guy right, no because I wanted to use a little more powder to reduce the BL-C(2) in inventory.

I had 100 Green tipped, 125-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in .30 caliber.  The manuals show that the 125/130 grain niche is the ideal spot for BL-C(2) in the 30-06.  Depending on the charge, and the rifle the user can expect 3100 to 3200 fps.  *I caution the SIL that the 125-grain Ballistic Tip was not an ideal deer bullet.

When the snow clears we plan on getting some range time in.  I advised my son-in-law to use caution when trying the BL-C(2) loads.  There is a cautionary note in Lyman Reloading Handbook #44, regarding pressure jumps using BL-C(2) and H335, and ignition problems with guns having a light firing pin fall. I do not recall this caution in any other manual.

BL-C(2) is an alternative powder for me.  The one powder concern I had during this OB shortage is a medium burning powder.  My preference is IMR4064 in the 300 Savage and 30-30.  I had planned on using it in the 303 British because I had run out of 4320.  I went looking for H414 and IMR4064 but they could not be found.  I did find 8-pounds of BL-C(2). 

When I started researching loads for the .303 British in a number of manuals it became clear that BL-C(2) is a top performer in the .303 British on paper.  I loaded a bunch of loads in different increments of powder for testing.  Testing is waiting for the weather.

[MZ5]

I don't prefer to use that fast a propellant in my '06 bolt gun, though I might use it in the Garand.  I prefer 175-grains and up in the '06, you see.  For me, I'll choose 748 over BL-C2 in nearly any cartridge case nearly every time.  To me, the two powders are so similar that if one works, the other one probably will, too.  I just think 748 is slightly more flexible.

[Dances with Geoducks]

Me sees a bent op rod in some ones future

The Garand was designed to use 150gr bullets, and IMR-4895. It was invented for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

what bends a m1 is slow powders not fast powder and blc is fast enough not to cause a problem. Keep in mind a couple things first siskyou I couldnt tell from your post if you knew this or not but 760 and 414 are the same powder. Carbine man if you were using 846 id tell you that its close enough to blc2 to not worry about it but ive found 846T to be a bit faster burning. More like 335/748 (which by the way are the same powders too) So dont use top end blc2 data with it till youve worked up slowly. the 846t is also a hotter burning powder (to light off tracers) and using it in the ars ive found that its not a good idea to really get carried away dumping rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger. the barrel gets hot FAST and im sure youd shoot out a forcing cone in no time at all.

[drdougrx]

Interesting...I haven't hasd much luck with BL-c(2) at all.  I was hoping to have a AH-HUH! moment while readinh what others do with it.  I've tried it in my 06, 243 or 223.  I tried it with quite a few different loads.  I do have a nice load with H414 and 165gr bullets and 748 in 223 with 40gr NosBTs.  I have been using 60gr, BL-C(2) in my 35 whalen and 200gr bullets just to use it up. It gives me 2" at 100yards, but I'm still breaking in the gun.

[carbineman]

Thanks guys, I will not be using these loads in a Garand and I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear on that.

I traded with a member here for a handi-rifle barrel in 30-06 and would like to load some 130 grain .308 diameter bullets for using with this single shot with the above mentioned propellants.

I was asking if anyone had used these with the -06 cartridge. I am going to try it because that is the propellant I have and lots of it.

I was hoping that if the motherload of all fireballs coming out of the barrel when using this propellant in 06 could happen or someother freak of nature could occur I would be forewarned.

I do have load data for this and will proceed and let you know what happens. Thanks

[Siskiyou]

Lloyd:  When the guys asked about setting up a reloading day, they told me that they would buy the powder.  They did ask me to buy the powder because the original loads for the SIL were put together on my bench years ago using a proven H414 powder with three different 165-grain bullets.

I have known for years that H414 is in fact WW760.  At the time the powder supply at the gun store was rather short.  They did not have H414 so I asked if I could get WW760.  They had one; 1-pounder and I purchased it. 

I have been suggesting to the guys that they buy at least one, 8-pound jug of H414/WW760 or more so they can maintain consistency in their loading over a longer term.  They are now talking about making an order.  If we can make a combined order spreading out cost we will all benefit? 

I have the tail end of an eight pound, H414, jug that I loaded out of before my -06 became my SIL rifle.  When he took over I had an established load and a lot of testing behind it.  I needed to get them guys to buy some components.  I use H414 to push 80-grain bullets for critter hunting.  It is a good combination in my .243 and I do not want to break in a new load.  As it was the bullets they loaded were a Christmas gift of two hundred bullets to the SIL years ago.  I had bought 500 bulk, 165-grain Remington C-L, and gave him 200.  The primers they used came out of my storage. 

Got me thinking that I need to talk up H414/WW760 to the SIL.  I have never tried the powder with the 6.5X55 but he might want to try it with his rifle.  He might not want be in a hurry I just gave him two boxes of factory loads for it on his birthday and told him to save the brass.

My goal is to hook them on reloading.

[MZ5]

More like 335/748 (which by the way are the same powders too)

Lloyd, I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to share the info that indicates these 2 powders are the same.  The multiple sources I have (some pretty reliable, some I can't tell) all agree that these are not the same powder.  I'd like any additional information you may have on the topic.

[carbineman]

More like 335/748 (which by the way are the same powders too)

Lloyd, I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to share the info that indicates these 2 powders are the same.  The multiple sources I have (some pretty reliable, some I can't tell) all agree that these are not the same powder.  I'd like any additional information you may have on the topic.

MZ5 I believe you are right. The new load data flier for Hodgdon /IMR /Winchester show different load densities for H335 and W748. The load density for H414 and W760 are the same. HP-38 and W231 have the same load density and appear to be the same.

[Lloyd Smale]

sure has shown the same velocitys over my chrono. I would guess that if anything it may vary lot to lot as ive seen differnt velocitys with differnt kegs of the same powder using 335 and 748 If you look at the burning rates they will show 296 and 110 as differnt powders too and there the same thing. Same thing goes for 414 and 760 depending on the burning chart your looking at. 231 and hp38 is another example. All i know is i was told years ago there the same thing and ive used them interchangably for over 20 years now and have never seen a differnce in loads any more then i have changing lots of powder.

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree with you on the 414/760 its one of the most underated powders for cartridges like the 243 250 257 robers 6mm ect. My accuracy load for both of my 250s and both of my 257 roberts both use 414.

Lloyd:  When the guys asked about setting up a reloading day, they told me that they would buy the powder.  They did ask me to buy the powder because the original loads for the SIL were put together on my bench years ago using a proven H414 powder with three different 165-grain bullets.

I have known for years that H414 is in fact WW760.  At the time the powder supply at the gun store was rather short.  They did not have H414 so I asked if I could get WW760.  They had one; 1-pounder and I purchased it. 

I have been suggesting to the guys that they buy at least one, 8-pound jug of H414/WW760 or more so they can maintain consistency in their loading over a longer term.  They are now talking about making an order.  If we can make a combined order spreading out cost we will all benefit? 

I have the tail end of an eight pound, H414, jug that I loaded out of before my -06 became my SIL rifle.  When he took over I had an established load and a lot of testing behind it.  I needed to get them guys to buy some components.  I use H414 to push 80-grain bullets for critter hunting.  It is a good combination in my .243 and I do not want to break in a new load.  As it was the bullets they loaded were a Christmas gift of two hundred bullets to the SIL years ago.  I had bought 500 bulk, 165-grain Remington C-L, and gave him 200.  The primers they used came out of my storage. 

Got me thinking that I need to talk up H414/WW760 to the SIL.  I have never tried the powder with the 6.5X55 but he might want to try it with his rifle.  He might not want be in a hurry I just gave him two boxes of factory loads for it on his birthday and told him to save the brass.

My goal is to hook them on reloading.

[Lloyd Smale]

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
http://www.frfrogspad.com/burnrate.htm
look at these to charts one lists 748 as faster and one as it being slower. Looks to me like it is just of matter of what lot number they had at the time.
my experience comes from burning at least 50 to a 100 lbs of each over the last 30 years i can see why someone who only bought an occasional lb of each would think they were differnt. I can say the exact same thing about 110/296

[carbineman]

Siskiyou, I see where your coming from on getting your SIL and family into reloading, my situation is that I have a boatload of loaded ammo for my Garand which was donated to a family member along with the Garand, which for the most part will be exercised occasionally, but will probably be set aside in case of eventualities.

I keep BL-C2 and WC846 and W748 for loading 30-30 (I have four) Three H&R Topper and a Marlin 336SC. I even traded some WC846 for some WC680 to load my 7.62x39mm. Being a seasoned citizen, I don't really want to invest in more propellant. I bought this stuff right a while back, and I probably won't run out.

I have a H&R Ultra in .223 and now have a 30-06 barrel to use on it as well. I have about 75 .223 commercial brass and 70 30-06 brass all commercial. I probably won't shoot either barrel much. All I want to do is make it go bang and I'm not worried about "optimum" efficiency at this stage of my life.  Most of this stuff will be passed on along with my arms. I really enjoy shooting my 30-30's the .223 not so much. We'll see if the 30-06 will be any more popular. The sons/son-in-laws I think will shoot it, me not so much. Thanks for the posts and I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

PS. the BL-C2/WC846 works in 7.62x39mm but not real well. Hodgdon has a recipe for it in the #26 manual

Lloyd the flier for Hodgdon shows the same load density for H110 and W296. They could be the same now as well. I think the change to make all those powders the same was when Winchester had Hodgdon market thier products.

[MZ5]

OK, I see where you're coming from, Lloyd.  I'm certain that they're very close in many (most?) cases, just as 748 and BL-C(2) are.  I believe that the military and/or OEM designators are:
WC846 = BL-C(2)
WC844 = H335
WC748 = W748

Now, they are all manufactured by General Dynamics at St. Marks, FL, but then again that facility makes a WHOLE bunch of Ball (how do you make that trademark symbol?) powders, including Alliant's entire new Power Pro line.

760/414, 296/110, and 231/hp38 are the only ones that I can think of right now that Hodgdon agrees are the same powders.

[Lloyd Smale]

when 748 first came on the scene it was surplus like you said wc748 and winchester sold it as 748 and hodgdon sold it as 335. The surplus is about all gone, pats had the last of it last year i was told and both ww and hodgdon started having it made comercialy in st. marks. I find it hard to believe that they made to differnt powders one for each. blc2 is slower burning the either of the other two and is basicaly the same powder as wc846 agian lot numbers of both vary quite a bit. this is where we are seeing our differnce in opinion. When these powders first arrived on the scene they were surplus and the military bought big batches of powder so for all practical purposes they were the same and consistant. then it got to the point where winchester and hogdon would order a batch and these batches were much smaller and never exactly the same. A lesson i learned fooling with surplus powders is never trust a new keg of powder and that goes for commercial powders just as well. A max load with one batch can be a completely dangerous load with the next. Your pet loads will change enough too to about make you have to start over with load development in some cases. Thats why when i buy powder i try to buy at least 8 lbs at a time and if its powder i use alot like handgun powders i try to by at least 24 lbs at a time.

[Siskiyou]

“There is a cautionary note in Lyman Reloading Handbook #44, regarding pressure jumps using BL-C(2) and H335, and ignition problems with guns having a light firing pin fall. I do not recall this caution in any other manual.”

Lloyd and Carbineman:  Sounds like there is a lot of BL-C(2) experience between you guys.  I have over fifty years of loading experience but BL-C(2) is new to me.  It is great to work with on the bench because of its high flow rate.  But after reading the pressure warning in Lyman#44 I have some safety concerns.  

When I loaded the test rounds for the .303 Jungle Carbine I created a progression of loads labeling them and color coding the rounds so the I start with the lowest charge and climb the ladder as long as everything is working okay.  If there is a problem I will pull the bullet from the higher charges and go back to the one I consider safe.  The key is that I have control of the testing.

As soon as I gave the BL-C(2) to SIL, I gave up control of the How, When, and Where those rounds I used.  

Have either of you had any safety issues with BL-C(2)?

One of my favorite ball® powders had warning regarding reduced loads, but I never experience any problems with it.  

[MZ5]

A lesson i learned fooling with surplus powders is never trust a new keg of powder and that goes for commercial powders just as well.

I certainly agree!  In fact, the point was driven home once again with two containers of the same powder, manufactured within a year of one another.  Outstanding (and fast!) loads in one of my rifles with one of the containers, but flattened primers and the occasional sticky bolt working up to the same load with the new container.

®

How do you make that symbol on the web board here?

[Siskiyou]

We know that Ball Powder® is a registered trade mark.   

When using the reply option for a topic I cannot create it in the subject box.  I create the document in Microsoft Word. 
When using Word hold down the ctrl and alt keys and strike the r key. ®

After I have created the document I highlight it, do a right click on the mouse, and copy the highlighted information.   I then go to GB and click on the reply box, right click, and select paste.   My document (reply appears).

[carbineman]

“There is a cautionary note in Lyman Reloading Handbook #44, regarding pressure jumps using BL-C(2) and H335, and ignition problems with guns having a light firing pin fall. I do not recall this caution in any other manual.”

Lloyd and Carbineman:  Sounds like there is a lot of BL-C(2) experience between you guys.  I have over fifty years of loading experience but BL-C(2) is new to me.  It is great to work with on the bench because of its high flow rate.  But after reading the pressure warning in Lyman#44 I have some safety concerns.  

When I loaded the test rounds for the .303 Jungle Carbine I created a progression of loads labeling them and color coding the rounds so the I start with the lowest charge and climb the ladder as long as everything is working okay.  If there is a problem I will pull the bullet from the higher charges and go back to the one I consider safe.  The key is that I have control of the testing.

As soon as I gave the BL-C(2) to SIL, I gave up control of the How, When, and Where those rounds I used.  

Have either of you had any safety issues with BL-C(2)?

One of my favorite ball® powders had warning regarding reduced loads, but I never experience any problems with it.  

I have not had any safety issues with BL-C2. And as we know there is a first time for everything. Sounds like you have the situation well in hand concerning using it.  I do know that in some chambers it does and will come to pressure sooner than in others. A load developed in the cold weather months in Wisconsin may cause a bit of a problem in the warm weather months. For me using the ball type or spherical is a joy over any extruded I've tried in my Uni-Flow, and the so called temperature sensitivity problem is easily dealt with.

[MZ5]

Thanks, Siskiyou!  I wondered if you were pasting it in, or if there was an ASCII code or something that could be directly entered.  I don't have Word, so I'll look for the symbol in the program I use.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive used it slightly reduced but wont make up gallery loads with any ball rilfe powders. Powders like unique and 2400 are much better suited for loads like that. Thing is most ball powders like blc2 do there best at full power levels.