Author Topic: Long Distance with the .50 cals? (Read 5164 times)

TCAS · « **Reply #30 on:** November 16, 2003, 02:51:03 AM »

CKNight98,

Lots of chatter but not many answered your question.

With a 50 caliber inline my best shot on deer is 190 paces with a Austin Halleck and Burris 4x16, barnes copper bullet and pyrodex. This combo alway grouped (3 shots) under 2 inches at 200yard on the range.

I have already shot further with my 45 caliber Encore/ bulberry and PR 195 Dead Centers, Burris Scope and 777.

And no it is not irresponsible, I know folks than can shoot better with a bow and arrow at 60 yards than others can with a center fire rifle/scope at the same distance. Infact I know a few cenfire shooters that shoulld not shoot over 40 yards and it has nothing to do with their weapon of choice.

Know your ability, practice, practice, practice. Only shoot when you know the results and did I say practice.

PS Crow feather, I immediately saw the humor very funny......unfortunate we just won't agree on this issue. Your weapon of choice is a tool. And a modern muzzleloader/tool is more than able to take a deer a 200 yards and with the right combination and wind conditions the 250 yard shot is also a high percentage shoot.

Read some of the battle field accounts of the Cival War and you will soon realize that your weapon of choice killed many soilders at distances far exceeding 250yards.

It's not the tool, its the craftsmen/sportsman behind the tool.

Have a nice day

Tom Caswell

crow_feather · « **Reply #31 on:** November 16, 2003, 06:41:16 AM »

CKNight98,
Last I saw, we weren't at war with the deer and elk - maybe ground squirrels though.

In law, sometimes the legislative intent is not completely specified as the legislaters can not see into the future. Then, when the future has arrived, the majority and the money dictate that the legislative intent will be overlooked.

We told the legislators that black powder shooters faced difficulties not faced by centerfire hunters and were given special seasons. Now when the fish and game Depts. have finally had enough, I fear they won't ban the rifles that go the distance, they will just slide the muzzle loaders into the rifle season as the tools will be pretty much the same.

And the only shot taken while hunting should be the guaranteed shot, the I know for sure it's a dead deer/elk shot. What you will never see but what unfortunatly happens:

Dear Greybeard,
I saw a real trophy today standing broadside at 237 yards measured. I had my trusty thumblicker with six powerkiller duplex pellets pushing a sidestriker pure copper bullet. It was a high percentage shot. Unfortunatly the percentage caught up with me and the wind down range was really blowing. The wounded deer limped over the ridge and disappeared.

This from another site:

Quote

I had test fired my 209 X 50 with 3 50 grn. pellets, 240 grn Hornady XTP mag sabots and had hit 1 1/2" high at 100 yds. Temp was about 32 f

I shot at a doe at about 200 yds at a temp. of about 0 f and had the bullet fall well low of her. Not only that, but there was hardly any recoil and smoke.

After verifying I had not wounded her, I reloaded and shot a doe at about 150 yds. about 10 minutes later. This time the recoil was more to what I would have expected. The round hit mid ribs and did not exit. She ran about 300 yds across the field stopped and fell.

May your shot be true and you quarry never feel pain,
C F

KING · « **Reply #32 on:** November 16, 2003, 07:58:19 AM »

Morning geltlemen. I will have to say that I probably am not your average guy when it comes to the original muzzleloader type rifle. I shoot almost exclusivley rb in my rifles. Calibers range from the little .32 to the .75. I have never had to take more than one shot at any animal in order to put it down and this is with the rb. Even with a centerfire rifle I will not take a shot over 150 yards(scoped rifle),unsupported and have no problems telling people this. It is also true that I pick my shots and will not take one that does not present itself to me in the proper light. As a point ot interest, at our gun club, we have a game that is played using a paper plate. Range is 100 yards,any rifle,unsupported and standing on your hind legs and you have to put all ten rounds out of ten in the plate. I can think of maybe three people that have done it. That,my friend is out of a lot of shooters. I also have in my collection spent rb from game animals. That little rb will flatten out and dump most if not all of its energy into the game animal making for a good clean kill,is the round is put into the heart lung area. I just had a .58 go through a decent size buck yesterday and he did not move any from where he was standing(280 grn rb). I think that the point is that all shooters are a critter unto themselves and all of us think that we can make kills at huge ranges with any rifle. I really dont care what muzzle loader they are talking about,but it is limited to 150 yards for a clean kill if the round is placed in the proper area. This is for a round ball(where I think 100 yards is better),or one of the new inlines with thier copper slugs,and sabots. We have to be ethical shooters,and not wound game and loose it. If we practice and know exactly what we can do with all outside influences being the same,great. I have not known of any shots that are a sure thing because of these outside influences,and inturn dont think that they should be taken. I think the short of this is each individuals conscience,it is just that a lot of the shooters dont have one. stay safe.............King

brpc · « **Reply #33 on:** November 16, 2003, 11:38:22 AM »

King:

Well said.

Jim

Omega · « **Reply #34 on:** November 16, 2003, 02:33:14 PM »

Quote from: KING

I really dont care what muzzle loader they are talking about,but it is limited to 150 yards for a clean kill if the round is placed in the proper area. This is for a round ball(where I think 100 yards is better),or one of the new inlines with thier copper slugs,and sabots.

Hey King, You must feel the same limitation applies to centerfire rifles also. My inlines exceed the ballistic performance of many centerfire and still produce over 800 ft lb of energy at 400 yards. I shoot these rifles a lot and commonly shoot under 1 inch at 100 yards. I know exactly where that bullet is at any range and I see no reason why I can't shoot out to 400 yards if I want to. This may sound irresponsible to you but not nearly as bad as shooting a round ball at 100 yards sounds to me. I was in a moose camp last fall with two fellows shooting custom built .77 cals. It took 9 yep count'em 9 rb's to kill the bull. One particular outstanding shot at 40 yards was into the rear hip where the ball penetrated about 9 inches. The fellow was so firm in his belief of the miraculous round ball that he figured it was going to penetrate all the way through on that angle. That poor animal died a horrible pathetic death. The outfitter finally shot it over the hunters protest. I don't make judgments about how far other people should shoot and what they should shoot. Don't feel you have the right to judge for me what is an ethical shot. You sound like you are a good hunter and shot, you stick with what works for you and I'll stick with what works for me.

Rich

KING · « **Reply #35 on:** November 16, 2003, 02:56:56 PM »

:grin: Sounds to me like those guys shooting the moose should not be hunting with any firearm,much less a mz at that range. Like I said......................limitations.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #36 on:** November 16, 2003, 03:31:56 PM »

Quote from: TCAS

CKNight98,

Lots of chatter but not many answered your question.

There is no reason at all why you cannot cleanly harvest game out to 200 yards or so with a modern muzzleloader, and a moderate amount of practice.

This is at 157 yards. If I can do it, so can anybody. Yes, I could have taken him closer-- but I didn't want a "bonus" cow or calf laying there!

http://www.prbullet.com/DCenter.wmv

For more thoughts on the matter, you might care to read:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_muzzleloading.htm

rollingb · « **Reply #37 on:** November 17, 2003, 05:05:06 AM »

RandyWakeman,.... Maybe you should go back to "ILMS" (In-Line Muzzleloader School) 'cause,... Omega says thet his,..... <"inlines exceed the ballistic performance of many centerfire and still produce over 800 ft lb of energy at 400 yards.">...... and see's no reason why he can't shoot out to 400 yards if he wants to.

I'm wait'n for the next "idiot" to jump up,.... and declare thet he thinks it reasonable/ethical to shoot (at?) critters with his in-line at 500 yards?

? ("COME ON"!!!!.. one'a you "in-liner's" gotta have a rifle and load thet you think is proficient at 500 yards,.... so let's HEAR from you!!)

This is git'n better all tha time,.... think I'll grab me some "popcorn, and a coke",... to watch the rest'a this "comedy"!! :-D :-D :-D

crow_feather · « **Reply #38 on:** November 17, 2003, 02:10:47 PM »

Rollingb,

My wife wondered why I was on the floor laughing so hard. Awsome!!
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

C F

DEPUTY · « **Reply #39 on:** November 17, 2003, 02:22:24 PM »

Well, rollingb yes there is it is called the ulitame muzzleloader from howell michigan i have one it takes up to 250 grains of pellets, t7or pryrodex or loose powder and has one several matches using a shepard scope and 200 grain bullet! also it is ava in 45 i have seen shot and watched groups fired at over 400yds and even a elk kill at 450 yds! with it

www.ultimatemuzzleloaders.com

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #40 on:** November 17, 2003, 02:41:58 PM »

Ah, Mr. Wakeman. A very nice caribowser. Congratulations, sir.

Looking at the physics involved, it really doesn't matter what type of firearm imparts energy to the bullet. External balistics are a product of bullet shape and velocity. If a person can get the velocity of the bullet high enough and has a shape to buck the wind, that determines the range at which the firearm can be used. Personal skill determines the maximum range at which it should be used.

However, the other concern which Crow Feathers and others bring up is not the balistics of the bullet. It is probably the reason for the rancor between in-line users and traditional firearms users. That is that many years ago, before the modern in-lines were even thought of, those who hunt with muzzle loaders persuaded the various game commisions to establish special seasons. The reasoning was that they were limitted by equipment to short ranges so needed to be able to hunt without the animals being spooked by the hordes of centerfire rifle users. Like the archery hunters had special seasons

Then the in-line was developed to negate the disadvantages of the muzzleloader. The hunter was now able to shoot at longer ranges, often rivaling the centerfire shooters. They are still limitted by having to pour the powder and ram the bullet down the barrel, but as far as balistics go they are equal to the CF rifle. So there is a lot of resentment against this type of firearm which takes the tradition out of the muzzleloader season. And there is the fear that the ML seasons will be done away with because non-hunters equate the new rifles with the more efficient cartridge rifles.

I'm not sure where I am headed with this, except to say that we need to look at this from both points of view. Those who like their in-lines should understand the concerns of the traditionalists. We who shoot the traditional guns need to look at the in-line crowd as possible recruits to our side of the fire. And we must all stand together against the PETA crowd!

Enough ruminating for now.

-Kees-

crow_feather · « **Reply #41 on:** November 17, 2003, 02:55:38 PM »

Deputy,

Well,

I have too,

The gun's name is Sarah,

She was made from a 40mm deck gun barrel off a Navy Ship. She can hit a car at 1/2 mile. You really have to marinate that car to get it tastiing good though.

Sarah has won several matches and to set her off takes several matches.

I don't know what it would do to a moose's rear end, but I bet that the last thing the moose would see is that ball comming out it chest carrying the toilet paper with it.

rollingb · « **Reply #42 on:** November 17, 2003, 03:29:49 PM »

Deputy,.... I clicked on the link, and the page won't load,.... are you sure all the "specs" are allowed to be "made public" yet, by NASA?? :-D

rollingb · « **Reply #43 on:** November 17, 2003, 03:32:34 PM »

Kees,.... Of course you know thet yore absolutely correct, don't you??

Best regards!!

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #44 on:** November 17, 2003, 07:08:49 PM »

Quote from: keesvw2002

They are still limitted by having to pour the powder and ram the bullet down the barrel, but as far as balistics go they are equal to the CF rifle. So there is a lot of resentment against this type of firearm which takes the tradition out of the muzzleloader season. And there is the fear that the ML seasons will be done away with because non-hunters equate the new rifles with the more efficient cartridge rifles.

They aren't anywhere near 7mm RemMag / .300 WinMag performance levels, that's just ad-copy bluster.

The two bull caribou I shot were from the only in-line muzzleloader in camp, no special season was involved. The most popular rounds in camp were .300 WinMag and .300 WSM.

There is no traditional season in Illinois-- general firearm / handgun season for two weeks, one muzzleloader 4 day season AFTER. As you might imagine, no inline / trad debate exists here in Illinois.

rollingb · « **Reply #45 on:** November 17, 2003, 09:48:21 PM »

RandyWakeman,.... I didn't see the 7mm RemMag or the 300 WinMag mentioned in Kees's comment,... <"non-hunters equate the new rifles (I'm assume'n Kees means in-line muzzleloaders) with the more efficient cartridge guns.">

I think he was maybe compare'n the in-lines ballistic "performance" to such efficient deer-cartridges as the:.....

.243 Win
6mm Rem
.250 Savage
.257 Roberts
25-06
257 Weatherby Mag
6.5 Swiss
.264 Win Mag
270 Win
7mm Mauser (7x57)
7x30 Waters
7mm-08 Rem
.280 Rem
30-30 Win
.300 Savage
30-40 Krag
.307 Win
.308 Win
30-06 Springfield
.303 British
8x57 Mauser

ALL of these are "lesser cartridges" then the 7mm RemMag or the .300 Win Mag,..... BUT!!... ALL these cartridges ARE "efficient" deer/caribou cartridges,.. by anyone's standards!!

Now combine the,.... "ease of loading",... variable-power scopes,.... HUGE "powder charges",.... "smokeless powder-charges",.... completely "water-proof ignition",.... proclaimed "extended range",.... fancy expensive "high ballistic-coefficient jacketed bullets".... and etc.,....

And I totally agree with Keesvw2002, and his opinion thet "non-hunters" probably don't see any difference between modern in-lines and cartridge deer rifles (come to think of it,.... I don't neither!!)

Ther is no Special Muzzleloader Season "per-se", here in the State of Wyoming either,....instead we have 2 "units" out of more then 150, thet are archery and muzzleloader "ONLY",.... but we still "debate" the high-thecnology of today's modern in-line muzzleloaders (when we can find sumbuddy to debate with :-D :-D :-D )!!

rollingb · « **Reply #46 on:** November 18, 2003, 04:52:42 AM »

Omega,.... I have ben give'n yore "story" 'bout last season's moose-hunt some very serious thot, and I'd like to make a few comments. You said:....<"I was in a moose camp last fall with two fellows shooting custom built .77 cals. It took 9 yep count'em 9 rb's to kill the bull. One particular outstanding shot at 40 yards was into the rear hip where the ball penetrated about 9 inchs.">.....<"The outfiffer finally shot it over the hunters protest".>.....

1. I'd really like to git one'a those .77 cal. barrels, the ball would weigh roughly 715 grs.

2. I have shot completely thru a full-sized pickup-body with the liddle .75 cal., and the liddle 600 grn. roundball kicked up a hell'uv'a "dirt cloud" on the back side and "KEPT GO'N",.... it's REAL hard to "stop" them "pumpkins" and bring a "halt" to all thet "momentum" (probably why "cannon-balls" were so BIG

).

3. Bad "shot-placement" doesn't kill critters,... but,... you'd have thot they'da got "lucky" with at least "one shot" out of "9" hit'n the moose (I've personaly never "needed more than one", with my liddle .58 ).

4. Yore "story" sounds a LOT like a feller's located in the Northwest by the name'a "Jim"!! ("hint"... :-D his last name is "SHOCKEY"!!)

5. I respect you tho for NOT "portary'n" yoreself as the "hero" fire'n the finish'n-shot,........ with yore in-line!!

DEPUTY · « **Reply #47 on:** November 18, 2003, 03:43:18 PM »

http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/product1.html sorry try that one i love mine! had a early model about 5 yrs ago for testing now i got a new one

The rifle will fire a 300gr. bullet at over 2,900 FPS (feet per second) and a 180 gr. bullet at an astonishing 3,100 FPS.

rollingb · « **Reply #48 on:** November 18, 2003, 05:22:54 PM »

Deputy,..... AW!! HA!!... "They" said it couldn't be done,... but yore rifle "proves otherwise"!!

Thank you!!!!!... for share'n the pitcher AND the info!!

Whats thet thing use for a "powder-charge" anyway?

? :eek: :eek:

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #49 on:** November 18, 2003, 09:03:17 PM »

Quote from: rollingb

RandyWakeman,.... I didn't see the 7mm RemMag or the 300 WinMag mentioned in Kees's comment,... <"non-hunters equate the new rifles (I'm assume'n Kees means in-line muzzleloaders) with the more efficient cartridge guns.">

I think he was maybe compare'n the in-lines ballistic "performance" to such efficient deer-cartridges as the:.....

I'll let Kee's tell me what he "maybe compare'n."

An inline is no .270 / .243 / .30-06 / .308, either.

They can compare well with the .45-70 Government, or the .30-30. Little surprise there, as they were black powder cartridges to begin with.

crow_feather · « **Reply #50 on:** November 18, 2003, 09:21:44 PM »

Psssst..................Randy,

Look at the top of the page..........

C F

rollingb · « **Reply #51 on:** November 19, 2003, 04:42:50 AM »

...... <"They can compare well with the .45-70 Goverment, or the .30-30. Little surprise there, as they were black powder cartridges to begin with.">......

Randy Wakeman,.... Yore gonna have to "stay after school" on this one, 'cause you only "scored" 50%.
Now write on the blackboard 100 times,...... "The 30-30 was "NEVER" a blackpowder cartridge"!!

Now!!... for today's "ballistics" lesson,.....
At a measely 200 yards the original 45-70 Goverment "loading" (1300 FPS), with FFG, and 520 gr. bullet, has 46 inchs of "drop" from "line of sight".
At 300 yards, the same cartridge has 109.30 inchs of "drop" from "line of sight".
At 400 yards, the same cartridge has 203.87 inchs of "drop" from "line of sight".
and so on,.....
What made this cartridge so "deadly" on buffalo, was the "combination" of the huge 520 gr. bullet and Vernier tang-sights. The Vernier tang-sights have "many times" the amount of "elevation adjustment" compared to today's scopes.
Even today, with such rifles as the Ruger N0.1 and with "HOT" loaded 45-70 cartridges and 300-350 gr. jacketed bullets for "flatter short-range trajectory",.... the 45-70 "IS NOT" reccomended for "long range" hunt'n (at least, not by tha one's with any "common-sense"

).

The 30-30 has ALWAYS ben considered a "short-range" deer cartridge in the 100-150 yards-range (even if you wanted to "load" it with blackpowder :-D

:-D

)

To compare WHAT yore "try'n to SELL" (to the public),... to the 45-70 and 30-30 cartridges,..... and to "proclaim" it as "fit" for long-range hunt'n (200-300 yards),.. is in "total disregard" for the game-animal!!!! :noway:

propredator · « **Reply #52 on:** November 19, 2003, 11:39:14 AM »

Bygosh that $1500.00 muzzle loader is faster than a 7mm mag.if i remember right a 7mm mag with a 160gr bullet does around 2900fps.
150gr bullet runs some where close to 3100fps with a fairly hot load.
Can you really hit the side of a barn with it at 200gr of powder?
If you can how long will it be before some one starts making a cheaper copy for around 500?
right now i reckon this gun would be legal to use here in Iowa shooting at 3100fps,but i cant even use a 3030 here to hunt deer here,shotgun or muzzle loader only,how is it this can happen.
the whole fear of using a high power here is the houses are just to close togeather,it aint safe,but i could buy a 1500 dollar muzzle loader that will scream a bullet out and use it.
some thing aint right. :evil:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #53 on:** November 19, 2003, 02:07:42 PM »

The gun is super accurate! i have used it with a 250 grain charge and it is devastaing randy killed a 1900 pound buffalo with it on camera last year on away outdoors at 80yds he killed it dead on its feet breaking both shoulders the animal crumpled right there doa! the gun uses a lothar-walther barrel's and howa/weatherby actions mine is built on a ruger action! once you shoot this gun your hooked! i doubt you will find a cheaper vesion with that kind of accuracy and each gun is hand made! and yes it is basically a 300win mag range

propredator · « **Reply #54 on:** November 19, 2003, 03:45:15 PM »

wouldnt it be cheaper to buy a 300mag and use it?Now im beging to know how the old timmers feel.If they let this gun be used in any deer season here in iowa where you cant even use a 3030,im gonna have a hissy fit :evil: :evil: :evil:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #55 on:** November 19, 2003, 05:21:58 PM »

sorry to say but looks like i might be there next season using it in iowa!

rollingb · « **Reply #56 on:** November 20, 2003, 05:34:49 AM »

Yep!!.... Thet thing sure look's "ballistically comparable" to a 460 Weatherby Mag. with the 300 gr. bullet, which makes me ask,... why isn't the 500 gr. bullet, a "weight" popular in the .460 Weatherby, mentioned,... and "what kind" of liddle 180 gr. bullet do you shoot in it??

WOW!!.. only "28 shots" from a POUND of powder!! :eek:

Thet thing must cost a feller, over $2.00 "per shot"!! :eek:

I cain't believe thet every, MODIFIED-centerfire "video-producer",.. ain't got one'a "THESE"!! :-D

DEPUTY · « **Reply #57 on:** November 20, 2003, 05:48:53 AM »

a few of the boys are using some heavy 400+ grainers in africa and i belive some 500 pentrators

Brian · « **Reply #58 on:** November 20, 2003, 07:57:11 AM »

Forgive me guys, but aren't we taking the challenge out of the hunt if we can't get any closer than 200 yards to our game! I personally enjoy the challenge of getting in close to animals I am hunting! If you ask me the real challenge is placing your stand where you know an animal will come within range and keeping quiet enough to take it without spookin' it! I'll save the long shots for competing with my buddies at the range! My :money: for what it's worth! Brian

rollingb · « **Reply #59 on:** November 20, 2003, 08:58:38 AM »

Brian,.... "I for one", agree wholeheartedly with you,.... but then agin I AM an "old-school traditionalist".

It would appear however thet some fellas use'n the,... "modified centerfires",... would consider it a "challenge" to even git a real muzzleloader to go "BOOM",.... let alone actually do'n some "think'n/sneak'n/stalk'n/crawl'n",.... to git a liddle closer-shot at the game animal for a "one-shot" kill!!