Author Topic: May get a New Muzzle Loader--What about short barrel (Read 3194 times)

mattmillerrx · « **on:** February 22, 2010, 02:04:31 PM »

I looked at a T/C White Mountain Carbine the other day, just cause it caught my eye. If I remember right it was $325. It got me thinking I need to get a Muzzle loader. The one I have is a cheap walmart special that I have not used in years and is an in-line. I want something more traditional than an in-line to play with.

I was looking around for more info on this little gun and found the Hawken rifles and like the look of them as well looks like about $440 new. They also have a short barrel version and a more normal but not long 28 in barrel.

I do like the looks of these short barrel guns. What do you think about the function of these in the field. Are they worth having for hunting or just a novelty. Do you think I would be better off with the big version?

This is step one, but I will have to refresh myself on black powder and muzzle loaders before firing, as it has been years since I messed with mine at all.

One purpose of this post is to see if I need to go grab that white mountain as I see they are no longer made. Not 100% sure cause when I was looking at it, I was not to interested but am now---but I think it might me a new gun---at the very least light use. 50 cal. If I go new I might go 54 cal.

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:02:11 PM »

Short barrels mean fast twist, which means conical bullets.

And they are a can of worms to open up

deadrabbit · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2010, 04:06:19 PM »

There are a lot of reasonably priced T/C Hawkens, Renegades, etc in 50 and 54 caliber available. $300-350 would get a fairly nice T/C Hawken and less than that for the Renegades. They have long barrels and are good guns, have a slow barrel twist. I'm not sure if any of the shorter barreled guns have a slow twist but doubt it. I'd go with a long barreled gun to start with. If nothing else it will look nice on your wall, even if you dont like shooting it, or you could resell it for close to what you pay if your careful buying.

mattmillerrx · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2010, 01:54:35 AM »

I may have to go back and look at the T/C again. I might get it.

The Hawkens I post before are Cabelas and not T/C--I did not realize when I first posted.

In my looking I also came across one I have heard about for years--the Lyman great plains rifle. I might just have to save my cabelas points for one of these.

I don't mind the conical if that is what I have to shoot in it. But round balls would be cheaper and more fun.

mattmillerrx · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2010, 09:11:36 AM »

Been doing more reading, have to much time right now at the hospital with nothing else to do.

I have now found a Lyman deerstalker, Lyman great plains, Cabelas Hawkins, Cabelas sporterized Hawkins carbine. All in 54 cal. At this point I am really liking the look of the deerstalker in stainless. Actually they are about in the order I like them at this point pending more info. The other option is the T//C Hawkins but the price has pushed me away so far. Oh the there are so cool, remakes of some of the old military muskets.

From my reading with the 1 in 48 twist, I will have the option of shooting round ball or conical...this is also a nice option but, will it still shoot the balls well or just so-so?

Also asking about the quality of the Cabelas Hawkens line?

Would most likely shoot round balls in the 54 so if the 1 in 48 will not get the job done I can cut that off my list. The short barreled Carbines I originally posted about are all but gone since they will not do well with balls. But still look cool.

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2010, 09:36:26 AM »

Quote from: mattmillerrx on February 23, 2010, 09:11:36 AM

Oh the there are so cool, remakes of some of the old military muskets.

From my reading with the 1 in 48 twist, I will have the option of shooting round ball or conical...this is also a nice option but, will it still shoot the balls well or just so-so?

They do neither great, but both sort of. I would buy a conical twist, or a roundball twist, but Id not ever buy a 1/2 way twist.

What the production makers are making are no way period correct rifles. They are a hodge podge of years, what ever looks best.

When dealing with muzzleloaders, when you buy a cheap gun, you get a cheaply made gun. Most are third world made.

Im not saying they are bad, Im saying they are cheaply made.

If you go to black powder meets, you will find very few production guns being used by the top shooters.

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2010, 09:43:33 AM »

1-48 twist will shoot roundball just fine. The Cabela's Hawken is made by the same company that makes the Lyman.

mattmillerrx · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2010, 10:07:05 AM »

Dances,

What would you suggest? I am open to ideas.

Bladeforger · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2010, 02:35:42 PM »

Over at another forum, they almost worship the Lyman GPR. Seems like here more folks like the T/C Hawken/Renegade than there. As best as I can tell, they are both great rifles. I have a T/C Hawken and love it. 1 in 48 works fine with PRB. Having said that, I might buy a Lyman GPR someday just to have the shooting experience--and then I may not. Really, I have all the rifle I *need* in the one Hawken, and the New Englander and the little .40 cal are nice to keep for variety. My 2 cents put with $5 will get ya a nice cup of coffee.
Keith

simonkenton · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2010, 12:28:44 AM »

The short barrelled rifles are fine for hunting.
You get some velocity loss, going from a 28 inch barrel to a 21 inch barrel, but not that much. Still very lethal with the short barrel.
As has been said, you will have the fast twist with the short barrel.

The 1:48 twist is very effective. I have killed 7 deer and 6 wild hogs with my TC Hawken, using patched round ball. Not as accurate as a 1:60 twist but plenty accurate for deer hunting at 100 yards.

There are replacement barrels available. Green Mountain makes barrels for the TC Hawken, and others, you just drop it in. Takes about 30 seconds to replace the barrel.
You could find a used TC Hawken that somebody didn't clean right. The barrel is ruined but the rest of the gun is fine.
You could pick one of those up for $100. Then you could buy a Green Mountain barrel.
They you have a real accurate TC Hawken with a brand new barrel for around $300.

Here are some Green Mountain barrels for $220.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9224/Product/MUZZLELOADER_INTERCHANGEABLE_BARREL_SYSTEM

The GM TC Hawken round ball barrel is 1:70 twist, so very accurate for round ball, it is 32 inch.
The sabot/slug barrel is 1:28 twist and is 28 inches long.

So pick your poison, if you can decide which projectile you want you will be more accurate with that particular barrel.

Forestclimber · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2010, 02:56:07 PM »

I think the T/C Hawken or Renegade with the Green Mountain barrel is the way to go. However finding the Green Mountain barrel may be a problem. Green mountain hasn't produced them in a while. Brownells has the
50 cal in the fast twist for sabots but it is not at all for roundballs. There is a fast twist 45 barrel on Ebay now. You can pick up a stock on Ebay, then look for a barrel. I have T/C Hawkens with G.M. barrels that I also switched to Davis triggers on. They switch in about five minutes. Very easy to change and a very nice trigger. I sold the old triggers on Ebay for $25-$35.

srussell · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:01:37 PM »

i have a tc hawkin great rifle. but i need more drop in the stock. it kicks be hard in the cheek bone. great gun but i just dont shoot it much for that reason. use a lymanGPR mostly

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2010, 01:05:18 AM »

TC used to make a 21" PA Hunter Carbine barrel with the 1:66 twist to interchange with their long barrel. PA Hunter barrels and White Mountain Carbine barrels also interchange

.
Since the early '70's I've gathered up a fair collection of TC percussion rifles. The White Mountain Carbine has probably put more meat in the freez than the rest of them combined. Not because it's any better than the rest of them...because it's what Walt carries....

Walt

sbhg · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2010, 05:04:27 AM »

Don't be affraid of a fast twist. I have a 28" w/ 1:24" twist and it shoots PRB just fine in .54 cal.

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2010, 06:06:15 AM »

Quote from: mattmillerrx on February 23, 2010, 10:07:05 AM

Dances,

What would you suggest? I am open to ideas.

Please dont ask me, Im a flintlock purest, and a anti-production gun person.

I dont like conicals, powder substitutes, and surely not line-ins.

I only shoot a homemade long barreled roundball rifle.

Unlike modern rifles, you wont get a great muzzleloader unless you pay over $700 and make it yourself.

For those whom have only ever owned production guns, they will say blah-blah brand name work fine, and are the best.

Those whom shoot year round, and have been doing it for decades will have a superior quality firearm.

See I told you not to ask

k · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2010, 09:57:04 AM »

i really like my white mtn.cabines.i have a .50 cal. with a 1/20" twist and a .54 with 1/48" twist.both are fine shooters with a variety of loads.if your a still hunter and ground hunter you'll love the way they carry and swing into action.T/C makes quality arms and they are only lacking in SNOB appeal....karl

coyotejoe · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2010, 05:11:36 AM »

The Lyman Deerstalker comes with a 24" barrel and a 48" twist for both conicals and round balls. It comes in flint or percussion, .50 or .54 caliber, right or left hand. If I were looking for a carbine I'd look no further than the Deerstalker. Lyman quality is every bit as good as T/C and Midsouth Shooters Supply presently lists the T/C at $763.09 and the Lyman Deerstalker at $337.41 or about 44% of the price for the T/C. To me that's a no brainer, I'd take the Lyman hands-down.
Now in used guns it's an entirely different story. Every pawn shop has a couple of T/C Hawkens for $150-$250. You have to be careful with used muzzleloaders because many of them have badly damaged bores due to improper cleaning or lack of cleaning. Some also have bulged barrels due to being fired with a conical bullet not fully seated on the powder. A gun may look new on the outside and yet have a ruined bore. When examining used ML guns a drop in bore light is absolutely necessary. But just comparing the new price against the used price makes it obvious than no firearm of any sort depreciates as badly or as quickly as the T/C Hawken.

plumberroy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2010, 08:19:18 AM »

I have a cva hawkens 54 with a 16.25 " barrel I It was a kit gun witch bring nothing around here I had a friend cut it and square it in his lathe it will shoot 2"@ 75 yards with 75 gr.3fg and prb
Roy

8iowa · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2010, 04:41:08 PM »

The problem with most of the 1 in 48 twist barrels commonly found in the TC hawken and its clones, is that the rifling is shallow. This is to help provide a better seal for their conicals. Round ball rifles need deeper rifling to accomodate the patch and powder fouling. The barrel with the shallower rifling will usually shoot the first couple of shots with a patched RB accurately, but as the barrel fouls, accuracy drops off and loading becomes more difficult. The slow twist in RB rifles also helps to reduce powder fouling.

There is an exception of sorts. Civil War muskets had shallow rifling with a slow rate of twist. However the Mine' ball was smaller than the bore diameter, with a hollow base that flared out with the powder explosion, thus engaged the rifling. Every 7th cartridge in an infrantryman's pouch had a Williams Cleaning Bullet with a zinc disk on the base that scraped out the fouling from previous shots.

Canuck Bob · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2010, 02:19:19 PM »

I just bought a Lyman deerstalker with the 24" barrel. Its a lefty flinter. I love it but if it weren't for local gun laws I think I would rather have gone percussion.

More options with percussion and substitute powders are useable if desired.

My gun is a real handy rifle. It balances perfectly and the Lyman BP loading manual has lots of info. The 1:48 twist was apparently also the twist used by the real Hawkins Brothers so don't worry about the twist rate.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2010, 05:54:42 AM »

As "8iowa" said, there is more to it than just the rate of twist. Many roundball bench rest matches have been won with rifles having a 48" twist, but they were custom barrels with the proper groove depth for patched balls. When we think of a 48" twist today we are probably referring to a factory made rifle having grooves of .004-.005" deep. That is just right for conical bullets but a patched ball really is better with grooves two or three times that depth. Green Mountain makes a very good roundball barrel and their grooves run .012-.014" deep. But that is why many say a 48" twist is not good for patched balls, it is not really the twist that is to blame but the fact that most barrels having that twist also have very shallow grooves.

Dogmann · « **Reply #21 on:** December 08, 2011, 06:05:48 PM »

Can you guys post some pics of short barrel MLs? I want one but cannot find one under 21inches...

mspaci · « **Reply #22 on:** December 08, 2011, 11:13:14 PM »

I have put alot of deer on the ground with my little .50 cal WMC. Mike

del1964 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 09, 2011, 02:48:10 AM »

I have an Investarms, they make some of the guns for Cabelas I think. It has a short barrel and shoots a patched round ball VERY well. have had Renegades(my all time favorite), Hawkins, New Englander, and Scout from T/C and they are very nice rifles. I had a Lymans GPR that I am sick about getting rid of.
I really like the short barrel rifle i am shooting now but if I could, I would find a .54 Renegade in good condition. It is a workhose. Just my 2 cents. ><> del

keith44 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2011, 06:31:09 AM »

just as with a center fire rifle, or shotgun, the short barrel muzzle loader really shines in the woods. Heavy brush is easier to move around in with a short barrel. If you spot and stalk deer or other game the short barrel bun is your best choice. If you hunt open areas and shoot right at 125 yards or more from a stand the longer barrel will work best. I prefer an old Hawken I was given about 18 years ago, and really like it for stalking.