Author Topic: Light weight first youth rifle? (Read 2607 times)

messer454 · « **on:** February 24, 2010, 04:21:44 AM »

I have a young man whose dad just joined our hunt club for him to learn to hunt. Pretty good dad seeing as he is a hunting novice himself. They apparently have the ability to hunt in KY and he was asking me about what rifle to get. The boy is 10 but very small in frame. I am capable of down loading and even casting bullets and have looked at .243, .30-30, and .357 and have searched and searched here. What I can't find is my answer to this yong man's biggest challenge....rifle weight. I kind of doubt the generic weights that NEF put on their sight because I picked up a .357 once that seemed a lot heavier than the .45-70 that was next to it (due to barrel wall thickness I assume.)

I would prefer the .30-30 all around because I like bigger bullets than the .243 but the rifle seems like it might be a lot heavier than the .243 superlight. Does anyone know the actual weight of the synthetic .357 and/or .30-30 Handi's. My .357 lever is lighter than the weights posted by NEF. Thanks

PA-Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2010, 05:00:16 AM »

Up north, dad would carry the firearm until we got on station and then give it to the child to hold while hunting. Dad would also stay with the child until the hunt was done. 7mm08 is a good round and you can download it to 30-30 ballistics.

petemi · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2010, 05:11:18 AM »

The -08 is a good idea, but it doesn't address the weight issue. An old Topper .30-30 might be a good idea if you can find one. The other side of the coin is a heavier rifle will deliver less felt recoil, and a small ten year old is guaranteed to grow. Personally, I'd just go with the standard .30-30 or 7mm-08.......the exercise'll be good for him, and it won't bounce him around the block. The 08 is more versatile being on a SB2 frame, as opposed to a Topper.

Pete

trotterlg · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2010, 05:14:35 AM »

H&R's are kind of heavy for as simple as they are. The only place to loose weight is in the barrel, the stocks all weigh about the same within a few onces. The ultralight is as light as you will get, but a .243 ultralight will have a fairly nasty recoil for a very small person. If you are looking for a light weight youth rifle you may be looking at the wrong make. You could cut down the barrel, but it is probably a bad plan for a novice hunter to carry around a 16 inch barreled rifle. Larry

trotterlg · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2010, 05:22:05 AM »

How about a nice old Savage 340 30-30 bolt gun? Larry

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2010, 05:40:50 AM »

I like the idea of making the load for the kid.
I think 30-30, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, or even 45-70 would be good choices. Personally I like the wide heavier slugs and do not thinks the 243 will work well slowed down. I load a hot Special in 44 mag with a JHP 180 grain bullet @1,000 FPS out of my pistol and about 1200 FPS out of my Ruger carbine. No it will not cycle the action and turns the auto into a strait pull bolt. And while not used on Deer or Pig yet I do not think they will bounce off. The 45 colt can be loaded to similar leveals as well as the 45-70. Even the Rem 405gr JSP loads kick like a 20 ga. It is the 300 JHP loads that have a sharp crack to them. My friends kid likes to shoot my Ruger No 3 with the 405's but the 300's beat him up.
Watching a bunch of my friends kids shoot I noticed the weight of the rifle was not the problem.
Recoil was not even a big problem it was where the weight of the rifle is that has the kid holding the gun strange and adds to the recoil.
If you hand a kid a shot gun or rifle, most of the weight of the 7 pounds is ballanced at the action and the kid needs to lean back to keep the barrel up rather than leaning into the gun. After all 7 pounds to a 150 to 250 pound man is really nothing but 7 pounds to a 50 to 75 pound kid is a lot of weight. Toss up a rifle that weighs 1/10 or more of your weight and you will notice that you will hold that gun funny too (use a bar bell) Make it 20 pounds and move the weights around to where it is still comfortable to hold.
If the kid is going to shoot from a stand then a rest can be built to hold the rifle. other than that I would cut the Barrel as shot as legal and add weight to the butt moving the center of gravity back and still having the weight to reduce recoil and not kick the snott out of the kid.

carbineman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2010, 09:49:34 AM »

If legal the .223 UL would work with a Barnes X bullet as a buddy of mine in Texas started his daughter out with a .223 UL and loaded it with Barnes X bullet and that is one deadly whitetail killing machine with good range.

The 30-30 Topper is another good choice as my synthetic weighs just under 6 lbs. with a 1-4x20 Leupy on it.

wreckhog · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2010, 10:16:34 AM »

Contender carbine is 5.4lbs. Handis are heavy. Which ain't a bad thing. By the way, the solution for recoil is start with a .22, shoot lots, and inch up.

necchi · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2010, 11:08:09 AM »

Carbine man makes a good point,
There was a thread no too long back, a gent in Kentucky posted w/photo's of his 6yr old's first deer, using a handi .223.

Carry weight is secondary to recoil for a beginner, IMHO.

I started Dust young, but he got a .50 ML at 8, I remember a year later he took it out of the cabnet to show someone and said "What did you do to this rifle dad? It's lighter."

here, I found the topic,,
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,193516.0.html

Daman · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2010, 11:36:19 AM »

I started my little sister off in 243, but I would not recommend the SL. I am favoring the 30-30 or the 7mm-08 for a 10 year old. At least you have a 140-150 grain slug headed through the deer if their aim falters due to buck fever. I personally would put a kid behind my cut down Marlin 39A 30-30 for their first deer right now, but there are better starter guns. The 223 is mighty deadly with the right bullets and an accurate shot, but I would not put one in a 10 year olds hand and say hit that 3" heart on the huge buck out there. I just want to know for my sanity that

1) the kid can drive tacks
or
2) there is a large enough bullet going through the deer that they will bleed out on even a single lung shot

Just MHO.

Daman

Spanky · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2010, 11:50:44 AM »

Get a 44mag.
Cut it down to 18" or so.
Add a set of synthetics.
Put a red dot on it.

Presto...perfect youth deer rifle.

Shoot specials for practice and magnums for hunting.

Spanky

Airsporter · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2010, 12:46:50 PM »

First, caliber(s) - what's legal in KY?
Second, weight - is the kid going to carry it as in still hunting or shoot from a blind?
Third, anticipated range?

My first thought is 30-30. Very easy to do reduced recoil loads at 7.62x39 level with 125gr. .357 is also very easy to adjust for power/recoil. Don't rule out .223 with 64gr load if legal.

messer454 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2010, 02:25:28 PM »

Thanks guys, it seems like a lot of you are thinking my way. Any centerfire is legal but I do not want .223. I would like to know if anyone knows which weighs less....standard .30-30, .44 Mag, or .357. I was just thinking the answer might be the .45 Colt Carbine but not sure. If the .30-30 and .357 weigh about the same I will get the .30-30 and reloaid reduced until he can handle it. If the .357 is lighter I might get it. Anyone know actual weights and not just what is in the catalogue? I agree with some that it is best for dad to carry but would like for him to tote it if he could.

messer454 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2010, 02:26:50 PM »

Quote from: Airsporter on February 24, 2010, 12:46:50 PM

First, caliber(s) - what's legal in KY?
Second, weight - is the kid going to carry it as in still hunting or shoot from a blind?
Third, anticipated range?

My first thought is 30-30. Very easy to do reduced recoil loads at 7.62x39 level with 125gr. .357 is also very easy to adjust for power/recoil. Don't rule out .223 with 64gr load if legal.

1. all centerfire but I won't go below .243
2. Maybe both
3. 100yds and less for sure

SteveHawaii · « **Reply #14 on:** February 24, 2010, 03:43:00 PM »

I have a Rossi youth in .243. It weighs 9 lbs with scope - actual. Like the previous posters, I do not recommend the .243 for youth. Get something you can download. I had some kids out shooting my Remington 760 in 30-06 the other week and they absolutely loved it. I was shooting 150 grain hand loads with an average powder formula. Started them out with the .22 and worked them up to the -06. I was surprised as to how much they enjoyed it. They looked at it as a challenge, not a punishment. Also, I have a Limbsaver recoil pad on the -06. Makes a difference, along with shooting the right load.

twocan · « **Reply #15 on:** February 24, 2010, 03:56:46 PM »

I bet he would love to shoot mine!!! I set this up for the wife and kids to shoot. For a kid, the 7.62x39 is hard to beat. Rossi makes one in 7.62x39 now. Also ati makes this stock for them as well. Can you say tacticool.

scootrd · « **Reply #16 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:31:40 PM »

Mod seven 7mm-08 with Remmy managed recoil rounds. Mod seven 7 scoped right at 7lbs

Non managed recoil
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860)
Approx only 12.5 foot pounds of recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity

Managed recoil knocks it down further to 40% less recoil ,
zero at 100 yards -2.0 inches at 150 Yards.

Additional off the shelf 7mm-08 loads can then be substituted to grow with him as he grows.
This will allow him to not outgrow the rifle or the cartridge

JMHO

Spanky · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:53:07 PM »

I just weighed some of my Handi's to give an idea of the differences.

32-20 with 2.5 simmons and synthetic stocks 4.5#
44 mag no scope and wood stocks 5#
20 ga. Tracker I no scope and synthetic stocks 5#
30-30 no scope and wood stocks 6.5#
7-08 with 2.5 simmons and synthetic stocks 7.5#
38-55 no scope and wood stocks 8#

This was on a digital scale and was rezeroed each time.

Spanky

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #18 on:** February 24, 2010, 06:07:14 PM »

The 44 mag would weigh less, and with warm 44 specials or down loaded 44 mags should be easier for the lad to master. Barrel could be shortened to 18" for less weight. 45 colt would be even lighter as it has a larger bore in same diameter barrel and comes with a 20" barrel. If ya go with the 45 colt, lose the metal butt plate, get a regular youth stock with the recoil pad, take off that pad and replace with a Limbsaver pad. Put the Limbsaver on which ever one you choose, they really work. Don't have any weights for any of mine, I only have bathroom scales here and I KNOW they lie!!

DP

messer454 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2010, 01:00:14 AM »

Quote from: Spanky on February 24, 2010, 04:53:07 PM

I just weighed some of my Handi's to give an idea of the differences.

32-20 with 2.5 simmons and synthetic stocks 4.5#
44 mag no scope and wood stocks 5#
20 ga. Tracker I no scope and synthetic stocks 5#
30-30 no scope and wood stocks 6.5#
7-08 with 2.5 simmons and synthetic stocks 7.5#
38-55 no scope and wood stocks 8#

This was on a digital scale and was rezeroed each time.

Spanky

Thats what I was wanting! Thanks a bunch Spanky. I am leaning heavily on the .44 now. I have been loading and casting for that for years

Jon in TN · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2010, 02:41:16 AM »

My very small 10 year old son killed his first deer this year with a 223 handi and it was DRT because he hit the spine. But I was very leary of that small round as well, but it was all I had for him and he was very comfortable shooting it.

I've bought a 7mm-08 and 44 mag Handi's since, but I've not got him behind them yet. Next year in woods he'll be using the 44 mag, but I'll be removing at least 4-5 1/2" off the barrel. The biggest problem a small child has is the front end weight. Their arms are too short to hold up barrel without being all over the place. I also made my son practice with a shooting sticks, kneeling, standing, leaning, ect. and I never let him shoot off a bench. And it paid off when he got the chance to pull the trigger in the field..

Also, when your looking at "youth" guns, pay attention to the LOP. There's a few that are only 1/2" shorter than a full size rifle in the same model. A youth Handi stock has a LOP of 11 3/4" and that's about as short as you can find in anything...

Daman · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2010, 02:57:17 AM »

messer454

I think the 44mag would be an excellent choice because you are setup for it already. If you could run across an old Topper 30-30 that would be good. My Topper is substantially lighter than my Handi 7mm-08.

Daman

spooked · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2010, 05:41:47 AM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on February 24, 2010, 06:07:14 PM

The 44 mag would weigh less, and with warm 44 specials or down loaded 44 mags should be easier for the lad to master. Barrel could be shortened to 18" for less weight. 45 colt would be even lighter as it has a larger bore in same diameter barrel and comes with a 20" barrel. If ya go with the 45 clot, lose the metal butt plate, get a regular youth stock with the recoil pad, take off that pad and replace with a Limbsaver pad. Put the Limbsaver on which ever one you choose, they really work. Don't have any weights for any of mine, I only have bathroom scales here and I KNOW they lie!! DP

Methinks that removing the buttplate and addin recoil pad to the classic .45 would only be needed if ya started warming the reloads.. Everyone that has shot my .45 classic sez it has no recoil.. $:-\$

blaze · « **Reply #23 on:** February 25, 2010, 06:25:18 AM »

As mentioned above look for a good used H&R Topper in 30-30 or better yet, if it meets your hunting needs, a H&R Topper in .357 mag (models 158,058,258 etc). Mine, with synthetic stock, on a postal scale weights 5lbs 10.5 oz. with open sights. Great light gun with little recoil and if you want a scope it can easily be mounted on it.

Dinny · « **Reply #24 on:** February 25, 2010, 06:40:11 AM »

I like the idea of a .223 UL with a stout bullet made specifically for deer hunting. Could double as a varmint rifle in another season.

Thanks, Dinny

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #25 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:44:33 AM »

A thuty thuty will shoot cast bullets just fine all day long and they can be loaded to any level.

Look at www.castbullet to see what Junior did with a .30-30.

messer454 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 25, 2010, 09:32:38 AM »

Quote from: Rustyinfla on February 25, 2010, 08:44:33 AM

A thuty thuty will shoot cast bullets just fine all day long and they can be loaded to any level.

Look at www.castbullet to see what Junior did with a .30-30.

I concur about cast but they appear to be a heavier rifle to begin with which was my original concern. If the .44 Mag is lighter AND I cut some off the barrel AND ad a youth stock I think it will be about as good as I can get. I agree with what John in TN says about end barrel weight and LOP. I have seen that in my older nephews which is the reason for starting this post and asking about weight.

JerryKo · « **Reply #27 on:** February 25, 2010, 09:35:36 AM »

Ati collapsible stock has the shortest lenght of pull. If I can remember I'll measure and weigh. Always like a reason to pull the handis out.

Jerry

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 25, 2010, 11:31:39 AM »

45 Colt Carbine weighs around 6 1/4 lbs. Recoil level is perfect for kids.

zoner · « **Reply #29 on:** February 25, 2010, 11:41:17 AM »

30-30 Handi with synthetic stocks