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Offline briarpatch

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Union Product??
« on: February 24, 2010, 09:52:04 AM »
All Teachers Fired at Underperforming School in Rhode Island
Wednesday, February 24, 2010 


Central Falls, Rhode Island  —  The blue-and-white banner exclaiming "anticipation" on the front of Central Falls High School seems like a cruel joke for an institution so chronically troubled that its leaders decided to fire every teacher by year's end.

No more than half those instructors would be hired back under a federal option that has enraged the state's powerful teachers union, earned criticism from students, and praise from U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan and some parents.

The mass firings were approved by the school district's board of trustees Tuesday night after talks failed between Superintendent Frances Gallo and the local teachers union over implementing changes, including offering more after-school tutoring and a longer school day. The teachers say they want more pay for the additional work.

"If it's only an hour or two, I think teachers can afford to do that," said Robert Rivera, 40, who worries about sending his 13-year-old daughter to the troubled high school next year. "The teachers are overpaid."

The shake-up comes as Rhode Island's new education commissioner, Deborah Gist, pushes the state to compete for nearly $13 million in federal funding to reform the worst 5 percent of its schools, including in Central Falls.

To get the money, schools must choose one of four paths set under federal law, including mass firings. Gallo has said she initially hope to avoid layoffs by adopting a plan that would have lengthened the school day and required teachers to get additional training and offer more after-school tutoring.

Central Falls High has long been one of the worst-performing in Rhode Island. Just 7 percent of 11th graders tested in the fall were proficient in math. Only 33 percent were proficient in writing, and just 55 percent were proficient in reading. In 2008, just 52 percent of students graduated within four years and 30 percent dropped out.

Shantel Joseph, 42, who lives just a block from the school, worries her 16-year-old son might not graduate because he struggles with low grades and appears to bring home little homework. She opposed mass firings in a state that already suffers from nearly 13 percent unemployment.

"It's a bad idea, because I know they need a job," Joseph said. "They need to work. Maybe they should talk to the teachers."

Christian Manco, 15, was among four boys who ran out a side door on the high school Wednesday during what he said was a walk-out of students in support of their teachers.

"The school wants them to work more hours for no extra pay," Manco said, explaining what teachers had told him.

The negotiations bogged down when officials for the teachers' union asked for more pay if they were going to be doing more work at the school.

It remains unclear whether a compromise might emerge. Gist said Wednesday that it's not a negotiation, and that she's awaiting more detailed plans from the superintendent. But in an interview on WPRO-AM, she appeared to leave the door open to other options.

"If the district decided that they wanted to ask for more time and said that they wanted to reconsider, then I would have to take that under consideration. But right now, that's not the case," she said.

A phone message left with Gallo was not returned.
 

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 10:05:10 AM »
Teachers Unions have put more teachers on unemployment than anything else in the education system. I would hope there's not a union requirement on the state funding so they can renegotiate with teachers who are willing to continue to educate our kids for a fair wage.

Here in Hawaii the "furlough friday" has been real unpopular with the public, and everyone is mad at the Governor for trying to balance her budget, but its the teacher's union that has been holding up progress. 26 more days parents have to arrange child care each year is a big burden. But with less than half of the population paying taxes to support the budget, what do they expect?
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 10:18:21 AM »
While I'm not a fan of unions in general, I think the teachers (performance aside) are right here - you want people to stay an extra hour or so per day and you darned well better be willing to pony up a financial incentive.  That's one issue right there.

A separate issue is teacher performance.  If their students are consistently failing to perform on standardized tests (you can't go by grades otherwise teachers will just curb their grades until they look good), then replace them.  It's as simple as that. When you get new ones, pay them a fair wage (I have a very hard time believing the these teachers are "overpaid") so they'll stick around and not go running to a different school as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

Local governments are notorious for trying to skimp where they shouldn't.  I was in a meeting not 2 years ago when a budget request was being presented for a new Accountant position.  The proposed salary was $75k annually.  The council members got into an uproar stating that "ANYBODY should be able to make a living at no more than $50k per year.".  While that statement does have some merit, it doesn't change the fact that on average a good accountant makes a lot more than that.  Post the position for $50k and all you'll get is the people who are looking for a temporary job while hunting something better (which isn't good - it usually takes 6-8 months for an employee to settle in and truly become productive at a new place of employment), OR you're going to get the person who is so incompetent that no where else wants them.  Pay what the market dictates or you'll get crap employees.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 10:20:03 AM »
That's the problem today many see school as free child care !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Questor

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 03:04:49 PM »
The way I read the story when it broke was that there was a plan A and a plan B. Plan A was to turn the school around in terms of academic performance with the existing teachers. Job descriptions were modified to meet this objective. The union rejected it. Plan B was to fire all the teachers and start over. The teachers and their union chose plan B by rejecting plan A. The wages for these teachers was about three times higer than the local average adult wage.
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 08:17:22 PM »
When you figure out that teachers work 9 months out of the year. Usually during a 7 hour class day, there is 2 hours for lunch,studyhall or recess, their overpaid.period. An extra hour or 2 wouldn't kill them. Big problem with teachers, is like so many jobs now days. Figure they deserve benifits out the kazoo, work 5-6 hour days and get paid for 8. Their not straining themselve's. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 08:43:10 PM »
I will say there are some much easier jobs than teaching ... I substitute taught for a couple weeks after I lost my job back in 2003. I think because of my size they put me with the unruly middle schoolers. I'd rather do another tour in Haditha, thank you very much. At least there we could shoot back. Teachers may work fewer hours, but they put up with a lot of crap for it ... from the administration, the other teachers, the parents and the kids.
held fast

Offline DDZ

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 11:52:03 PM »
Great, lets throw more money at teachers salaries and education. It sure has worked in the past. Look where US students are at in academic achievement when they graduate high school. Sure, we need more money thrown at education. Why change anything else.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 02:04:10 AM »
TeamNelson, I will give you that. I graduated in '73. It was not unusual for a teacher to use physical force against a student. I had one body slam me into the hall lockers because I was screwing up. We had an old Polish math teacher, if he didn't wrap your knuckles with his ruler, would pick you up about half way out of your chair, and shake you like a rat terrier. When your teeth caught up to your lips, you said yes sir and shut up. (bringing back some memories now).That was Jr. High school. In high school, I had a teacher that was there when my brother graduated,  6 years earlier. Duke Ziebold. Assistant football coach, and head of the Christian Athlete's program. When my brother had him,around '65 or '66, he recalled an incident where 2 boys were in a fist fight in the hallway,naturally, over a girl. Duke was, 6'2'' or 6'3'' and went real close to 300lbs. Grabbed both boys by the collar and dragged them to the gym. Gave them both a set of boxing gloves ans said go to it, or get suspended. I was in the hallway when 2 guys were going at it. Big crowd around. Duke came walking up, both guys were on the floor. He just stared down at them. Both stopped in mid punch, looked at him and got up. Said they were sorry, picked up their books and quickly seperated. All he said was, that's better. He probably was laughing so hard on the inside, but never showed it.
Yea, different world now. Teachers would get suspended or fired if they did half the stuff they did back then. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 03:26:14 AM »
My wife taught for 40 years.
I never had to work the hours she did--after school was not the end of her day as a teacher.
She was as motivated, and still is, at teaching but parents don't back up teachers.
It is the teachers fault because a child is lazy and does not care and the parents want a teacher to make them learn.
I have no respect for the majority of parents these days---no wonder the kids don't care---the parents don't.
Teachers are underpaid for the hours they put in.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Brett

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 04:05:21 AM »
There is a lot of truth in what you said about today's parents.  However, I also think your wife is one of the last of a dieing breed of teachers who genuinely care about teaching their pupils.  I think a good percentage (not all, but plenty) of teachers today are in it for the paycheck and go home at the end of their seven hour day and forget about it.

It's not a job I would want (primarily because they get little support from parents today) but you have to admit that they are compensated well for the amount of time that they are 'required' to put in.       
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Offline ToadHill

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 05:34:10 AM »
Now the kids can do no wrong.  When I was in school, if I ever came home and told Dad that a teacher hit me he'd get out the strap and do me again, then ask why the teacher hit me and if they had a good reason, I'd get a second whippin.
I can't control my day, but I can control my attitude.

Offline Awf Hand

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 07:51:33 AM »
Go look up the demographics for Central Falls, RI.  There are many factors at work here.  High poverty, high crime, high unemplyment, high illegitimacy - kids don't care much about adverbs or prepositions in that kind of environment and parents aren't pushing kids to succeed.  Teachers can't function well in a combat zone, I don't care how much you pay them.  The school board wants to lengthen their hours with no further incentive? 
Doesn't sound fun to me...
Just my Awf Hand comments...

Offline blind ear

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2010, 04:12:02 PM »
The school that I went to had a boxing ring on the playground. If  2 got into a fight the principal would put them in the ring with gloves and make them settle it. If students didn't come around by the 9th or 10th grade they usually would be out of the school. Bullies weren't allowed. The principal would appear at the classroom door window for almost every test. eddiegjr
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Offline Feddog82

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 04:26:30 PM »
My wife taught for 40 years.
I never had to work the hours she did--after school was not the end of her day as a teacher.
She was as motivated, and still is, at teaching but parents don't back up teachers.
It is the teachers fault because a child is lazy and does not care and the parents want a teacher to make them learn.
I have no respect for the majority of parents these days---no wonder the kids don't care---the parents don't.
Teachers are underpaid for the hours they put in.
Blessings

Agreed.  Teachers are very very very underpaid.  Esspecially in the public school system.  I am a carpenter that works for a contractor (not my own company) and I make $25k more a year than the superintendent of my local school district.  It is BS.  Parents allow their children to grow into a low life lazy POS and blame it on the schools/teachers.  At least they have a union with by laws to protect them a little bit.  A building full of minors is the most volatile situation htat life can send your way. 

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 04:53:39 PM »
Now the kids can do no wrong.  When I was in school, if I ever came home and told Dad that a teacher hit me he'd get out the strap and do me again, then ask why the teacher hit me and if they had a good reason, I'd get a second whippin.

Aint that the truth! My Grades could be less than perfect but my "Conduct" grade better be perfect or I would get an ass whipping! And if I got "busters" in school I got em at home in equal amounts.

They dont pay teachers enough to put up with the kids they have to now! No way I could do it!

I do believe the major problem with education today is Parents!

As to firing the teachers, If they dont make the curriculum, they aint the ones that should be fired, but somebody has to held accountable!


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Offline Victor3

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 09:42:41 PM »
Agreed.  Teachers are very very very underpaid.  Esspecially in the public school system.  I am a carpenter that works for a contractor (not my own company) and I make $25k more a year than the superintendent of my local school district.  It is BS.  Parents allow their children to grow into a low life lazy POS and blame it on the schools/teachers.  At least they have a union with by laws to protect them a little bit.  A building full of minors is the most volatile situation htat life can send your way. 

 It's not that way everywhere. I taught part time for the Los Angeles Community College District, part of the public school system here.

 When I left, I was making $42/hr and that was twelve years ago. They offered me a full time position if I would stay; it had a base rate of $62K/yr (with three months off). Picking up some substiute hours I could have cleared $75K easy. If I worked the Summer session it would have added another ~$20K. On top of that, the retirement plan was a dream and health care benefits were top notch.

 There's a reason that in CA ~50% of our state taxes go to public education - The legislature is in the back pocket of the Teachers' Union. It's probably the biggest non-Sicilian run racket the US has ever seen.
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Offline Feddog82

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2010, 11:59:35 PM »
I suppose it all depends on where you are in the country just like every other pay scale.  I believe the area that I live in to be a high pay/high cost area though.  However the teachers/administrators in this school district are all fairly new.  I guess in the future they will make more $$$ if they stick around and build some seniority.

Offline DDZ

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2010, 01:32:56 AM »
Feddog, those union bylaws you mentioned that protect teachers is called tenure. Once a teacher has tenure (3-5 years) they are almost impossible to fire. Teachers that drink on the job, deal drugs at school etc.. cost the school district hundreds of thousands of dollars to get rid of them because of their tenure. Many school districts will just agree to a buyout, for the teacher just to get rid of them, than have to go through the miles of paper work and legal costs. Then the district will hide this buyout cost from the public.

Unionized teachers are paid by two criteria. Level of education and service that you mentioned. No matter how good or how bad a teacher is their salary is based on just these criteria. Why go the extra mile to ensure your students learn? Why help a troubled student after regular school hours? Why work on an elaborate lesson plan that will help students learn more? Why not just show movies to teach a class? Why not just give a half hearted effort teaching when you will still make the same amount of money. You can't just throw money at unionized teachers salaries and expect it to benefit students academically.

I'm all for paying qualified teachers that actually want their students to learn and do everything in their power to achieve that. I'm also all for canning the trash that gives no effort, but it doesn't work that way with unionized teachers. This is one of the biggest problems with unionized employees. There is no incentive to do a better job. I know there are many teachers out there that really do care no matter what the pay. In turn there are also many that could care less what kind of product they turn out.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2010, 03:32:09 AM »
Lot's of thoghts going on here.
Most teachers who can't teach find out and leave after a couple of years--it is not that hard too pick up on who is doing the job and who is not--that is the job of the principal.
Pay---In California a 200,000 home cost 2,000,000.
The hours in school are from 7:00 til 4:00--in Deer Park and Pasadena---then three more at home.
My daughter is going to get a gun and learn too shoot it because of the kids at school---admittly it is a prison school---but they have threatened her and others. The Cops leave at 4:00 and she leaves around 4:30-5:00.
These kids are as motivated as a door stop---more by drugs and gangs and sex than education.
Folks---you as idividuals who have never taught and compaline because the teachers don't teach should never be allowed to have kids.
Blessings   
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 03:56:38 AM »
Feddog, those union bylaws you mentioned that protect teachers is called tenure. Once a teacher has tenure (3-5 years) they are almost impossible to fire.

I've never even heard of the tenure concept being applied outside of the university level.  Everything high school or below that I'm familiar with has worked on a more traditional non-tenured model.


Offline MGMorden

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 04:09:31 AM »
It's not that way everywhere. I taught part time for the Los Angeles Community College District, part of the public school system here.

 When I left, I was making $42/hr and that was twelve years ago. They offered me a full time position if I would stay; it had a base rate of $62K/yr (with three months off).

I worked for a year fresh out of college as an instructor (teaching computer classes) at a small tech school (this was 6.5 years ago).  I made $10/hour and there were no Friday classes so "full-time" here was a 32 hour work week.  Just before I left they said that they were going to raise me to a whole $11/hr (yay).  It was one of the best coincidences of my life that I was able to tell my boss there that I'd found another job, and was putting in my notice (actually 4 weeks notice in this case instead of 2 - classes weren't ending until then and I didn't want to leave my students hanging before the module ended).  To pour salt into the wound, they wanted to "foster a professional environment" since they were teaching business classes, so instructors were required to wear business attire (for males that was suit and tie).  They were barely paying enough for the instructors to AFFORD that type of dress when factoring in other bills.  They then had the gaul to call me up after I'd left and ask if I'd be interested in coming in and teaching some night classes as as 2nd job.  No thanks - I'm pretty sure my new salary was higher than the old boss's.

Now, my work wasn't in the public sector (at least there - my current job is but I'm not teaching anymore), and it was with adults rather than children, but I can honestly say that teaching SUCKS.  I never want to do it again, and I respect those that do choose to do it.  Heck I like to think that I did a pretty good job while I was there (got employee of the month 4 months into the job, and when I left the students chipped together and bought 2 large wing platters from Zaxby's for a going away party), but it's just not a fun job.

Offline Savage .250

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 04:55:23 AM »
If nothing else it got everybodies attention.............
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2010, 05:10:06 AM »
MG, K-12 teacher tenure has been around for many years. Many states are trying to do away with it or modify it, but the powerful NEA fights anything to do with changing teacher tenure. From what I've read there are over 2 million k-12 teachers that are tenured.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about.
In New York City, there was a teacher who had a sexual relationship with his then-sixteen year old female student (even emailed her from his school email address) and it took six years to fire him! During those six years, the New York taxpayers were still paying him his salary for sitting in a building owned by the school district for eight hours watching TV and reading the newspaper... for having a sexual relationship with a student!


William, Yes principals do know who the under performing teachers are, but the principals and school administration just can't fire them on their performance, because of the laws protecting them. If they do try to fire them it cost big bucks.   Do you think because a teacher does a poor job of teaching they will just up and quit their $50,000 + salary on their own? Do you really believe the poor performing teachers put in three hours at home? You might be able to convince someone else of this, but not me.

So William, because I have never taught school children, and I think there are some teachers that don't do the job they are paid to do, and should be fired. That I should have never been allowed to have kids. Geeez! maybe I should just close my eyes and believe that there is no such thing as poor performing teachers. Or maybe I should close my eyes to the fact that the powerful teachers union protects these poor performing teachers. I'm sure your daughter tries her best to do a good job at teaching, and I'm sorry she has to work in a school where police are required. I know that there are many very good teachers, that care very much that their students lean. This does not change the fact that there are teachers that need removed from teaching.  
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2010, 08:32:38 PM »
First and foremost---I don't know a lot of teachers around here who make 50,000 unless they have been there for a number of years. My SIL who has been teaching 4 years does not.
I read, from the comments here and from the comments in the news, that most think all teachers are borderline teachers.
The general trend is to consider that all children can be taught and the teacher can motivate all children to perform.
Balderdash.
I will stand by my words---most children today are not raised, they are sent too school to be raised, the parents of most children today are lazy, do not accept responsibility for their children, want to blame anybody for their childs failure--but the child--and that most parents today should not be allowed to have children.
I was a lazy and unmotivated child because I was a lazy and unmotivated child.
I grew up and was fortunate to accomplish many lifes goals.
My failures as a student were not improveable by a teacher because I didn't--my mother could not motivate me---I was lazy and immature---I was--not anyone else.
Yup---I graduated from college without any outstanding grades until my last two years when I grew up---well, I am still growing up---here, hold my beer and I will prove it.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Victor3

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2010, 12:39:38 AM »
I can honestly say that teaching SUCKS.  I never want to do it again, and I respect those that do choose to do it......but it's just not a fun job.

 Teaching, especially when you're just starting out, isn't an easy job. I found it to be rewarding in some ways but I agree, it can "suck." Especially if you don't have solid support from the administrators and fellow instructors willing to help you.

 The two community colleges I worked were like night and day. One was a rat hole in downtown LA, the other very good in a somewhat affluent area. I have a lot of good, and a lot of bad memories from my teaching days.

 One cool thing; I was able to arrange employment for some of my best students. One eventually became an instructor at a local technical college herself. Another is still working for the same company I work for today. I'm still in contact with a few others, and they've mostly done well for themselves.

 Another nice thing is that any kind of teaching experience looks great on a resume. I have a lot of non-teaching jobs listed on mine, but often the first thing an interviewer shows interest in is my teaching background.

 That said, I don't think I'd ever go back to teaching, even under the best conditions for top pay. It can be very difficult, often depressing and even downright dangerous. When I was a student at a community college I was subpoenaed to testify against a fellow student who I witnessed threaten to kill one of my instructors. Fortunately, it's a felony to threaten the life of a teacher in CA and he ended up doing several months in prison.
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2010, 03:34:13 AM »
I agree if a teacher doesn't like their job, or is afraid of being harmed, then by all means they should get out, maybe move to another district, or find another line of work. It must be different in this area. I personally know graduated people with a degree in teaching that have waited 8 to 12 years to get a full time job. Most fill in subbing until they get hired permanently.  In my area the average teacher salary is $54,831 which is about average for the state of Pa. Move out to the counties around Philly and some districts the average is over $84,000. Say they do work 10 hours a day thats 1800 hours divided into 84,000 is 46.6 dollars an hour. Add in benefits and they are over 60 dollars an hour. Doesn't sound bad for three months off a year + weekends, holidays, and snow days. Doesn't sound bad either for the teachers that probably don't even put in a good 8 hours a day. No wonder there are teachers waiting in line. I know its not the same everywhere, but this is the way it is here.       
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline jhm

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2010, 04:34:08 AM »
WILLIAMLATON aka BILL you are just like me, were too OLD to grow up now, so we might as well make the best of it as time goes by, but seriously I believe their is some truth on both sides of this issue, the teachers KNOW once they get into a school job it is almost imposible to loose their job, and the kid have learned exactly how many days they can miss and still pass, and that all they have to tell their parents mis that teacher gives everyone a low test score or grade, and that passing is the same as excelling in their minds and their parents eyes.   Jim

Offline gwhilikerz

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2010, 05:50:56 AM »

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Agreed.  Teachers are very very very underpaid.  Esspecially in the public school system.  I am a carpenter that works for a contractor (not my own company) and I make $25k more a year than the superintendent of my local school district.  It is BS.  Parents allow their children to grow into a low life lazy POS and blame it on the schools/teachers.  At least they have a union with by laws to protect them a little bit.  A building full of minors is the most volatile situation htat life can send your way. 
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 I don't know where you work but could I get a job there? We have an independent school district with about 750 students. The superintendent's salary is 84,000 per year. And this is KY, where wages are not very high.

Offline eye shot

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2010, 07:09:01 PM »
Biggest was of money in every school district is the superintendent. All they are there for is to ramrod levies through.
RIP Mike. Died on July 14th, around 2am, with his family at his side, he went peacefully to be with god.

http://www.sent-trib.com/obituaries/michael-l-schulte