Author Topic: Union Product??  (Read 2341 times)

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Offline briarpatch

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2010, 07:56:02 AM »
An update on the situation


PHILADELPHIA – A suburban school district secretly captured at least 56,000 webcam photographs and screen shots from laptops issued to high school students, its lawyer acknowledged Monday.

"It's clear there were students who were likely captured in their homes," said lawyer Henry Hockeimer, who represents the Lower Merion School District.

None of the images, captured by a tracking program to find missing computers, appeared to be salacious or inappropriate, he said. The district said it remotely activated the tracking software to find 80 missing laptops in the past two years.

The Philadelphia Inquirer first reported Monday on the large number of images recovered from school servers by forensic computer experts, who were hired after student Blake Robbins filed suit over the tracking practice.

Robbins still doesn't know why the district deployed the software tracking program on his computer, as he had not reported it lost or stolen, his lawyer said.

The FBI has opened a criminal investigation into possible wiretap violations by the district, and U.S. Sen. Arlen Specter, of Pennsylvania, has introduced a bill to include webcam surveillance under the federal wiretap statute.

The district photographed Robbins 400 times during a 15-day period last fall, sometimes as he slept in bed or was half-dressed, according to his lawyer, Mark Haltzman. Other times, the district captured screen shots of instant messages or video chats the Harriton High School sophomore had with friends, he said.

"Not only was Blake Robbins being spied upon, but every one of the people he was IM chatting with were spied upon," said Haltzman, whose lawsuit alleges wiretap and privacy violations. "They captured pictures of people that have nothing to do with Harriton. It could be his cousin from Connecticut."

About 38,000 of the images were taken over several months from six computers the school said were stolen from a locker room.

The tracking program took images every 15 minutes, usually capturing the webcam photo of the user and a screen shot at the same time. The program was sometimes turned on for weeks or months at a time, Hockeimer said.

"There were no written policies or procedures governing the circumstances surrounding activating the program and the circumstances regarding turning off the activations," Hockeimer said.

Robbins was one of about 20 students who had not paid the $55 insurance fee required to take the laptops home but was the only one tracked, Haltzman said.

The depositions taken to date have provided contradictory testimony about the reasons for tracking Robbins' laptop. One of the two people authorized to activate the program, technology coordinator Carol Cafiero, invoked her Fifth Amendment right not to answer questions at the deposition, Haltzman said.

About 10 school officials had the right to request an activation, Hockeimer disclosed Monday.

The tracking program helped police identify a suspect not affiliated with the school in the locker room theft, Hockeimer said. The affluent Montgomery County district distributes the Macintosh notebook computers to all 2,300 students at its two high schools, Hockeimer said.

As part of the lawsuit, a federal judge this week is set to begin a confidential process of showing parents the images that were captured of their children.

The school district expects to release a written report on an internal investigation in the next few weeks, Hockeimer said. School board President David Ebby has pledged the report will contain "all the facts — good and bad."

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2010, 11:48:17 AM »
Don't think it will happen, but here in our school district, their talking about basing a teachers salary on how students due in achievement tests. NOW, I could go along with that. You want more money, improve your students. THAT'S, what your getting paid for. Granted, parents have much to do with how well their child studies. But, over all, I think this would be a great idea. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2010, 03:26:22 AM »
WE do that in Va. now and teachers teach for the test . My youngest som finished high school last year . The last few (3) weeks of the school year since this testing started is wasted as the test have to be taken in time to be graded before school year ends so the last 3 weeks are play days .
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2010, 05:43:18 AM »
WE do that in Va. now and teachers teach for the test . My youngest som finished high school last year . The last few (3) weeks of the school year since this testing started is wasted as the test have to be taken in time to be graded before school year ends so the last 3 weeks are play days .

That's the problem you see in every case where you put too much focus on one thing.  Computer benchmarks are a prime example of this.  People use all sorts of programs to test how fast hardware is.  For 3d graphics (heavily used for gaming for example) a lot of people used a tool called 3DMark.  It was a series of tests to see how well your video card/processor etc would render example scenes.  Problem is all the video card manufacturers started tweaking their hardware for high 3DMark scores rather than actual performance in game.  Eventually the whole benchmark became nearly useless as a way to measure performance.

The same happens in school.  If you tell a teacher that their job depends on students passing the class, then regardless of what they do, those students are going to pass.  If you tell them that their job (or ESPECIALLY a variable salary) depends on the result of specific tests, then they're going to teach for those tests explicitly to the detriment of general education. 

Truthfully, though this original article is based on privacy rather than grades, if grades are what you want to improve, then the main thing to do is to toss out the "No child left behind" nonsense.  It basically forces teachers to stunt the pace of the class and the material taught to cater to the slowest students.  IMHO, the students that just aren't moving as fast, put them in separate classes.  Give them an education, but realize that they're not going to cover the same material as the students who can move along faster in another class without the drag.  There's no reason why brighter students should be held up by slower ones.  Our society is already falling far enough behind in scientific research and general education level that we don't need anything working against us there.

Offline BBF

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2010, 10:37:52 AM »
I might have liked being a teacher IF I had a Ferengi painwhip and authority to use it as I saw fit.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2010, 06:43:10 PM »
     All this anti-union talk: Does anyone know why the teachers union organized?

     Principals and superintendents used to have the power of life and death over teachers, sometimes literally.  If you didn't "please" the boss, you were out. This might include anything from sexual favors to painting his house during the summer. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and headmasters had that power. And once fired, forget about ever getting another teaching job; you were a "troublemaker". And this for whatever they deemed to pay.

     Do you really think that the concepts of an eight hour day, five day work week, vacations, sick leave, pensions, child labor laws and improved working conditions for everyone came about because employers "saw the light"?  Or that the time was right? It all happened because some brave souls risked, and sometimes lost, their lives fighting for them.

     So let's not forget why these unions emerged, and notice that the greatest opposition to union formation comes from the companies that stand to be the most inconvenienced if their places organize. Hospitals are at the top of these lists. Attempting to organize can not only cost you your job, it will get you blacklisted for future nursing employment. I personally have seen this happen.

     And don't tell me that laws protect you now and unions are obsolete. In most states employers are free to fire anyone, anytime, for any reason. You wore brown shoes with a blue suit? You're out. It has happened; it's called at-will employment. When asked to defend this practice, you will be told that it is only fair, after all, you are allowed to quit anytime you want. ???

Joe B.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2010, 07:43:31 AM »
Some states still don't have unions with much power and get along just fine .
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Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2010, 12:43:38 PM »
     Yea, you're right. They probably would have all the aforementioned benefits even if unions never existed.

     Yea, sure.

Joe B.
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Offline Hooker

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2010, 02:11:27 PM »
Let's see everything that was union in my area is now defunct except for Goodyear which is operating on public money.
I remember my uncle losing his job to a puke union worker on a take over and having his windows beat out of his car and his tires slashed by union members because he dared to cross their picket line to feed his family. Unions are run by criminals just like the government and they both will do anything to increase their own power and screw good men out of honest work.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2010, 02:52:29 PM »
Unions started out 80-90 years ago, and had great ideas. Pendulem has swung to far the other way. Reason business's are taking jobs overseas. I have seen instance's where a union did good. Not so much in the last 30 years. Too much greed on both sides of the table. Except that business has the option of going elsewhere. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2010, 03:09:06 PM »
     I'm not denying that there have been abuses of power on both sides. If, in the day, someone crossed a picket line, they called him a scab, and he was taking money out of their pockets. Some people refused to pay union dues, but were happy to accept the benefits others strived for.

     Like I stated, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and some union bosses got that power. See Jimmy Hoffa, R.I.P.

     Still, my point is that no employer came out in the 1930's and said: "Well, it's high time we stopped making our workers do 12 hour days, six or seven days a week, and we really should give them two weeks off with pay every year. It's just the right thing to do." If you enjoy these benefits yourself, you needn't thank a union guy, but don't call him a "puke". Name calling just weakens your argument.

     And gypsyman, there are many more reasons why companies take jobs overseas. People living in huts are easy to buy off with pennies. You generally don't find high company executives living in these hovels, not enough golf courses there. And that's not even counting how many tax benefits a company accrues by going offshore. Think NAFTA. Think.

Joe B.
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Offline Hooker

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2010, 04:09:14 PM »
If you enjoy these benefits yourself, you needn't thank a union guy, but don't call him a "puke". Name calling just weakens your argument.



Joe B.

When a honest hardworking man is forced from a job because he wont join a union.
Those men who take his place by use of force are thieves I was just being nice calling them pukes. You can champion this anyway you want but wrong is still wrong regardless of the intent. With today's  labor laws they are completely redundant. Unions control both side of labor by extortion they are a rotting carcass of what once seemed to be a good idea. Their whole doctrine screams marxist socialist.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
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Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2010, 05:19:04 PM »
      O.K.- Ask yourself how those labor laws got enacted. Generous businesses? Honest politicians? I'm truly sorry your uncle got the short end of the stick, bur at least he had a choice. I can tell you stories of miners who were expected to work everyday, and when they died, fall towards work. Know why mining families had so many kids? When a miner was killed, they expected two of his sons to replace him.One man = two boys. Otherwise, they were evicted from their house.

     The Pennsylvania State Police have a sordid past. They were organized by the steel and coal barons as strike breakers, emphasis on the word breakers. When organizers were identified, they were called in to break legs, burn down houses, shoot entire families; whatever it took. Broken car windows and slashed tries? Try watching your house burn with your family still inside. These were brutal times, on both sides.

     Marxist and socialist? Perhaps, but ask yourself this: Why, after the Jews, did Hitler go after the trade unionists next?

     This is one of those discussions that will not change anyone's views, like gun control or abortion. Whatever your view, it will not be swayed by anyone else. It is in the spirit of brotherhood on this forum that I back out here. If you want the last word, be my guest. I only wish that GBO had the smiley that represents beating a dead horse. Instead, I just leave with a smile, wishing you a good life. :-X

Joe B.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

Robert A. Heinlein

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2010, 05:57:30 PM »
Bigmoon, that was my point. Business can go to where there is real cheap labor,pollution standards are lax or none exsistent. Payback to the shareholders is much better, bottom line is lower. Makes the big wigs look better. In the mean time, the regular union workers are stuck where they live. Seen example's of where a union did what it was suppose to do, and where it was in the wrong. Thing to look at right now, cat is out of the bag. I don't think in our life time, we'll see the jobs/wages, that we were at for the last several generations. I believe at this point in time, it's like a smoker giving up cigarette's when there wheeling him into the iron lung. I don't think there is a single thing any union, and/or business can do to salvage what is left of this economy. We're at a stall point, and the next 3-6 months, it's heading into the crapper. And, I really hope I'm wrong. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Hooker

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2010, 06:08:41 PM »
The problem with pro union folks is that they assume way back before the great unions came along that all employers were slave drivers and demons that would eat your children if you did not toil for them around the clock 8 days a week.
 Not to say that there weren't some real bad places to work  but they were not the norm.
And the folks who were unlucky enough to be stuck in one of those crappy jobs got an idea.
Hey lets stick together and tell the boss we are tiered of the crap and we are going to quit if they don't clear away some of the crap.
Heck it was a great idea, But then they thought hey lets pay someone to do this for us. Yeah they can be our voice to the man we will give our authority to make demands and deal in our stead. And if you don't pay for this service you can't work here.
You can tell it was a large group who thought this up because it takes a whole lot of folks to carry that much stupid.
At first things weren't to bad made some changes here and there working condition got a little better. But folks are never happy, they wanted more and more and more... Greed for getting more than was owed them had them in it's grasp.  Now the little union drones are consumed by that which they only wanted to escape from.
Now instead of being screwed over by the man that pays them. They are both being screwed over by the man they pay.
 And some day soon we will have to join a union or not work you can almost hear the Bolsheviks laughing from the grave.


Oh Hitler went after the unions to remove any competition.  If you control labor you get to make the rules.
 

Pat

 
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2010, 04:57:33 AM »
Oh Hitler went after the unions to remove any competition.  If you control labor you get to make the rules.

You don't think that is why Obama is in bed with the unions do you? Naw, couldn't be!
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Offline BBF

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2010, 06:50:44 AM »
What the Union bosses seem to overlook is what happened to their peers in the Soviet Union or the old Iron Curtain countries.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2010, 09:17:09 AM »
Lets be fair , the unions did good for safety . The unions got better wages for their workers also good . But then they went on getting higher wages from companies that could charge what they wanted . The faults lie on both sides . The American consumer was charged what ever the companies wanted to charge not what the product was worth . Not with world wide competition the bubble is busting . If the unions want to really help their workers they would get work even at lower wages . If companies wanted to stay in business they would lower cost and intern prices to remain in business . But both are still greaty so we see both going down the tubes .

Now as far as unions in the USSR , hum was it not the ship builders union who got Poland freeded from Russian rule ? and in part started the break up ? Is that the direction you wish American unions to go ?
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2010, 01:12:29 PM »
Unions today are not what unions were 50 years ago. I work under a union and I hate it. The union protects the lazy guys that don't prefer to do much. The lazy guys know this, so by their choice they are poor performers, and their isn't much the company can do about it. The union creates and protects non-productivity. You would thing that the union would want a good work force that is productive. No, all they worry about is how to screw the company. You know the evil company that pays many of them way more than they are worth. 
My supervisor told me and the small group of mechanics that I work with, that he would like to reward us for the good work we do, but his hands are tied because of the union. With a union it makes no difference if you chose to sit on your can and do nothing, or you chose to bust your butt. All are together, and all get the same treatment and pay. If I had a choice to not be a part of the union, I wouldn't be. Where I work I'm forced to be. To say the least I'm sick of the stinking union and wish the company would bust it. I'm a firm believer that if you make yourself valuable to a company they will reward you. If you do not wish to make yourself valuable, then you do deserve to be fired. To many union employees think they only need to park their car and drag their lazy butt out of it, to deserve a pay check.

All you have to do is look at the politicians unions support come election time. That alone will tell you all you need to know about what unions are.
   We once had the union president tell us at a union meeting that we need to vote for politicians that support unions. Guess who he was talking about? Yes the union loving Democrats. You know guys like John Kerry, Al Gore, and Obama.  I got up and walked out and haven't attended another union meeting, and never will.   
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2010, 05:10:27 AM »
Isn't it amazing, when a union shop turns into a employee owned business, work productivity goes way up. Unproductive workers are shown the back door, workers that play the workers comp game go out the window. Kinda like being self employed!!gypsyman :)
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Offline Brett

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2010, 07:40:50 AM »
+1 to the last two post by DDZ and Gypsyman.   Unions, for the most part, have lost sight of what it was they were intentionally meant for...  That is to provide a fair and safe working environment.   Insuring that the lazy are treated the same as the productive is far from fair.   
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2010, 08:02:25 AM »
+1 to the last two post by DDZ and Gypsyman.   Unions, for the most part, have lost sight of what it was they were intentionally meant for...  That is to provide a fair and safe working environment.   Insuring that the lazy are treated the same as the productive is far from fair.   

I must agree with this.  Bigmoon has a point, and unions in the past did a LOT of good work to improve conditions for the average worker, but the reality is that that time is long past.  Compare it to bleach - a little will help clean your clothes.  Pour on too much though and it's better if you never pulled the bottle out in the first place.

Unions today have lost BALANCE.  They initially wanted fair conditions (something sorely lacking at the time when they emerged), but they quickly learned that the same tactics they were trying to use to balance the scale could also tip it in their favor.  They ended up doing the same thing as the people they were fighting against: using their position of power for their own gain. 

Today, Federal Minimum Wage, Overtime, and Child Labor laws solve a ton of problems which the unions were initially formed to solve.  We as a collective populace have already managed to take care of those problems outside the scope of a union, and so they have outlived their usefulness.

With all that said however, there's unfortunately no fair way to make the unions go away other than convincing people to voluntarily avoid them.

Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2010, 08:37:14 AM »
    Isn't it amazing how many dyed-in-the-wool conservatives would rather have a Big Government Agency :o police their workplace, rather than do it for themselves through their Union?

     And granted, Unions have progressed far from the John Steinbeck Grapes of Wrath days. And I will admit that they also make it more difficult to fire people. But they do even the playing field, so the workplace is governed by seniority, not nepotism, or worse. I have seen people that should have been fired kept on the job just because they were senior. I have also seen good people fired just because the boss "didn't like them". No reason need be given, they just have to show that it was not discriminatory, that is, in one of the protected categories: age, religion, race, etc.

     Oh, wait, there's the federal protection. You were fired because you wore the wrong shoes to work? Sorry, we can't help you. :'(

     Over time, any system will collapse under its own weight, unions are not exempt. Today, more people are relying on big government to do what two generations ago people did for themselves. Unfortunately, big business is too often in bed with the lawmakers, either directly or through lobbyists and bankers. Inevitably, conditions will deteriorate again. We won't see it, maybe our grandchildren will. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, in both directions. Viva la revolution. :-\

Joe B.
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2010, 11:33:56 AM »
Bigmoon, I don't want a union, or a big government agency police the workplace. Neither are any good at all.

 How is the playing field evened with today's unions in place? If you are talking about everybody treated the same and paid the same no matter what amount of work they do, then yes you can say the playing field is even. The everybody is the same, concept is something socialists created. Is it fair? I can't see how you can say it is. Where would the incentive come from to better yourself, or do a good job for your employer? Guess what, there is no incentive. You can be a slacker if you want and not pay any consequences, or lose any money. How is this good for America?
Unions are about socialism. Do you follow the union drum beat and vote for the people they support? Unions do support socialist politicians. Do you know that? Do you know that part of every member's union dues goes to support democratic campaigns?

What are the reasons the boss fired the good people you mentioned? Did they always show up on time? Did they miss work? Were they poor performers? Did they steal company property? Did they always lie? I'm betting they were fired because of one of these reasons. Supervisors just don't fire good workers. Not smart ones anyway.
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Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2010, 01:17:13 PM »
     Ah, but not all supervisors are smart. Haven't you ever worked for a boss who was petty? I have, and I've seen a lot more.  The person who was fired did not do any of the cardinal sins you mentioned, she was fired because...well, we were never sure, since the manager didn't have to offer any reason. At-will employment, remember?

     And who ever said anything about everyone making the same money? I've never worked anywhere that everyone made the same money, what with seniority, profit sharing, incentive pay, overtime, etc.

     Socialism? EEEK! Run away! We sure don't want any socialized services like fire, police, schools, garbage, roads, Medicare, or the military.
Or any church you name. Socialism means we all do something that benefits us all as a group, a concept that is as old as tribes.

     Yes, I know that a tiny part of my union dues goes to support some politicians I didn't vote for. I also know that my Community Fund donation supports some groups that I wouldn't ordinarily give money to, but it's the greater good that's being done that I keep in focus. And not all the money I give in church goes where I'd like it to. So what? If you're a part of something you believe in, you support it.

Joe B.
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2010, 05:56:05 PM »
I quit the union that I belonged to because of their support of candidates I did not support. Nothing but Democrats! Once I saw where large portions of the money I was giving to the United -Way was going, I stopped giving! The communist killed several million people for the greater good. I think I will pass on the greater good!
                               Beerbelly

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2010, 06:24:26 PM »
     Ah, but not all supervisors are smart. Haven't you ever worked for a boss who was petty? I have, and I've seen a lot more.  The person who was fired did not do any of the cardinal sins you mentioned, she was fired because...well, we were never sure, since the manager didn't have to offer any reason. At-will employment, remember?

     And who ever said anything about everyone making the same money? I've never worked anywhere that everyone made the same money, what with seniority, profit sharing, incentive pay, overtime, etc.

     Socialism? EEEK! Run away! We sure don't want any socialized services like fire, police, schools, garbage, roads, Medicare, or the military.
Or any church you name. Socialism means we all do something that benefits us all as a group, a concept that is as old as tribes.

     Yes, I know that a tiny part of my union dues goes to support some politicians I didn't vote for. I also know that my Community Fund donation supports some groups that I wouldn't ordinarily give money to, but it's the greater good that's being done that I keep in focus. And not all the money I give in church goes where I'd like it to. So what? If you're a part of something you believe in, you support it.

Joe B.
I have a fundamentally different idea on employment.  Let’s say I need a new secretary.  I'll post an add, interview people, and pick someone.  Now, to me, I should be able to fire that person at any time, for any reason.  I could walk in one day, hate a new haircut, and fire him/her.  After all, it's my office, it's my money, and when they took the job they knew this.  He/she can simply not show up one day and never be seen again, leaving me to scramble without warning.  What is my equivalent?  In the legal world the term is, "terminable at will".  It's what most everyone used to be.  In your example I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT CARE that someone was fired by a manager who, "... didn't have to offer any reason."  If she didn't like it, she should start a business of her own, or work somewhere else, or develop a skill that provides security.  Not many doctors get fired, "just because". 

I see a value, particularly a historic one, in unions for those in more dangerous labor jobs.  They have a (lack of?) skill that would be easily replaced, and deserve some protection against being a disposable commodity.  That being said, the pendulum has swung too far.  There are labor laws today that protect workers from dangerous situations.  There are state and federal minimum wages.  Employers are required to hold jobs for anyone who wants to take "family leave". 

Today unions stand for wages above fair market value, entrenched and entitled workers that are impossible to discipline, let alone fire, and endless expenses associated with contracts, hearings, arbitrations, and lawyers.  The thing I find most grating is that most union supports feel like they deserve what they get, merely by their existence.  Here’s an idea: try deserving what you get by the skill set you bring to your employer that is valued in a fair market.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2010, 04:14:47 AM »
Bigmoon, not sure where you got the idea that conservative's want big government to run there work place. A true conservative wants as small a govt. as can be. Of course, even that has become a thing of the past. That's what we need now more than ever, less govt., not more. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline bigmoon

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Re: Union Product??
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2010, 08:27:31 AM »
     Dukkiller, I can appreciate your point of view as an employer, but fundamentally disagree with it. You assume that we all live in a sterile world, where firings are common and matter-of-fact occurrences. In fact, firings are wrenching, gut-bending, life changing events. Your example secretary most likely has bills to pay and kids to feed. She will now be out of a paycheck and job hunting for a while, carrying the stigma of being fired, all because you didn't like her haircut. You may feel: "Nothing personal, it's only business.", but I can assure you that she will take it very personally. Although she'll probably get a new hairdo. ;D

     It was because of such employer attitudes that unions were born. And what would you do to keep her in her chair if she didn't want to work for you anymore? And why would you want her there? We fought a civil war to outlaw slavery. :)

     Gypsyman, I get the idea because very conservative anti-union person I talk to says that we don't need unions anymore because labor laws and the courts are adequate protection. Who operates these labor laws and courts, if not big government? Interestingly, the labor laws that they defend were all introduced by (shudder) democratic administrations. :o

     I'm not naive (at least, not anymore). The world is painted in shades of gray. I do appreciate the sharing of ideas here and I hope I haven't offended anyone with my sometimes blunt assessments. We'll probably discuss this more, and never agree on much. However, for now, it's a beautiful day and I have two receivers sitting a my dealer's shop, a new unfired 22-250 barrel and a newish varmint stock. I'm going to go burn some powder and I suggest you do the same. I think we can all agree on the rifle range. 8)

Joe B.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

Robert A. Heinlein