Author Topic: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70 (Read 18471 times)

RIFLE MAN · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2010, 04:55:48 PM »

With the proper loads the 444 Marlin cartridge can issue
spectacular results!!! It is a "wicked" killer on whitetail, black
bear, and elk within proper range.

Sincerely,
Rifle Man

Casull · « **Reply #31 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:20:40 PM »

Out to 125 yards or so, there isn't a whit of difference between them on deer. My first 15 or so deer were shot with .50 caliber muzzleloaders using .44 saboted rounds of 240 grain jhp's over 90 grains of Pyrodex P (basically the same as a .44 mag out of a rifle barrel). Shots were between 35 and 125 yards and I never did recover a bullet. Most were lung shots behind the shoulder, along with a couple of neck shots. I know people have their favorites, but with the OP's criteria, the 45-70 is not any more versatile (just more expensive for reloading). He DID say he was looking at deer hunting out to about 100 yards.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #32 on:** July 26, 2010, 06:21:05 AM »

I used a 310gr boolit (sorry Veral) out of a .44mag. Would liked to have taken a critter with it as it was a real thumper.

It was the same boolit I use in my 44 Redhawk and before that in a BH "Hunter"

It was a bit long for the Marlin .44, so no fast working of the action, but get Veral of LBT to cut you a mold to fit your firearm - heavy for caliber w/a big meplat - and you'll have a great hunting round, especially with the 444 or 45/70

Have just started loading the LBT boolit from my new LBT mold for my RUGER #1-s 45/70.

Test results should start com'in in this week.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

tacklebury · « **Reply #33 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:40:37 PM »

I like the Hornady FTX in .45-70. It is actually the least expensive around here and is almost always in stock. Works nice in lever actions and single shots. I also reload my own and get even more flexibility out of the round. I can load from ultra light kicking 34.3 gr. RL7 for my wife to 52gr. Shoulder stompers for ultra big game. There are lots of .45 cal styles of bullets, with the smaller portion being pointed rounds. I also load .457 round balls with Unique for varmint plinking out to 100 yards. I have also made some shot rounds to test, although haven't shot them yet.

WyoStillhunter · « **Reply #34 on:** September 23, 2010, 03:53:01 PM »

I have no experience hunting with, or even shooting, the .44 Mag. or 45-70. But you can see from the photos that the 444 Marlin is quite adequate for elk and deer.

1911crazy · « **Reply #35 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:08:17 PM »

When i had my choice of getting a 45/70 or a 444S marlin i chose the 444 caliber mainly because i could use the same bullet as my 44mag for reloading. I think overall the 444 marlin is the best "brush gun" out there. I use it when i'm in the very thick wooded areas when i'm hunting blackbear. With its 3,000ft lbs @ the muzzle i'm not afraid to go into any thick area with it. Right now i'm getting ready to bump it up to 300gr JSP's(444).

My hunting buddies always made fun of my marlin 444, they said that round would kill'm and package the meat one shot. Another rib is the 444 would clear the thick woods the first shot and then you could shoot the bear in the open.

I like the 45/70 round too but i wish they offered smaller weight bullets/spec's for using lighter bullets than the 405grers. (things could of changed lately i have been out of touch on the 45/70. I hate to shoot small deer with a 405gr bullet. The 45/70 marlin is on my wish list.

I mainly hunt bear with my bigger bore guns.

I wish they would bring back these older 45cal and 50cal longer rounds in the levers, i'd love to shoot/hunt with an older cannon.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #36 on:** October 02, 2010, 04:24:35 PM »

Plenty of under 405gr boolits out there for the 45/70!

Plus their better boolits then all but the premimum jacketed slugs, and unless you go with maybe a very soft alloy, you won't tear up the meat like many jacketed bullets are prone to do.

Ya just need to cast your own or buy some of the very good cast boolits made commercialy.

I'm shoot'in a 355gr LBT WFN out of my RUGER #1-s 45/70. Could go lighter, but this seems to me to be a good level to get the hunting load I desire.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Canuck Bob · « **Reply #37 on:** January 01, 2011, 07:55:45 AM »

I've hunted with the 44 Mag and a 444 for decades. The 444 with 240 grain bullets is ideal for deer. The 44 Mag is fine. I have never hunted with a 45/70 but it is another outstanding cartridge.

The 444 and factory 240 grain bullets will perform and I consider it a premier deer cartridge to at least 200 yards. Loaded with 265 Hornady FP bullets it is an outstanding moose and elk cartridge. My next step is heavy LBT style lead bullets. All reports suggest serious knockdown power.

If I were considering a 44 Mag it would be in a handy lever and I would not feel undergunned in deer woods but would prefer something heavier for moose. If you visit Veral's forum on the Ask Veral forum here he discusses the 44 Mag a bunch.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #38 on:** January 01, 2011, 10:48:15 AM »

Canuck Bob,

If my VERY!!!!! limited experience with a LBT/WFN boolit is any indication, it is flat AWESOME on game critters.

Started the rifle cast boolit hunting way too late, so may not ever get the experience I'd like, but the first experience was nothing less then devistating!

My 355gr LBT started out from the 22" Ruger 45/70 - #1 barrel at about 2290fps and the critter was at about 100yds. Hit high, so didn't see the side to side behind the shoulder through the ribs hit I desired, but the boolit took out about a 3" strip of tissue and bone, side to side, through the back bone.

I truely didn't expect that kind of proformance.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Shu · « **Reply #39 on:** January 02, 2011, 09:15:07 AM »

Within the OP's question; they are the same no real difference. If your talking heavy slugs it's the 45-70
If it's factory ammo the 44 mag. If you are a reloader take your pick. Once you get over 300 grain bullets the advantage goes to the 45-70.

I am a big fan of the 45-70. For me it is the most versatile. Collar buttons to them big 500 grainers.
Subsonic to omg that hurt to shoot loads.

You can't go wrong with any of the 3 in the parameters of the OP.

Mikey · « **Reply #40 on:** January 03, 2011, 12:52:21 AM »

"You can't go wrong with any of the 3 in the parameters of the OP." Shu - you are absolutely correct.

Canuck Bob: the 265 gn Hornady slug was specifically designed for the 444 and it performs very, very well but, if you want 'Hammer of Thor' type performance then go check out the Beartooth Bullets site, the load data they publish for the 444 and get some of their slugs. I have taken 4 large hogs and Elk with the 300 to 335 gn cast gas checked slugs in the 444 and the performance is incredible. I have literally 'rolled' 400 lb boar right out of deadfalls with the impact of those slugs and those on the move that I hit dropped right there. You should try them out.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #41 on:** January 05, 2011, 06:25:43 AM »

I find all this high praise for the 444 very encouraging.
I've got a 1908 Martini Enfield action I've meant to convert to a switch bbl for a while now.
One bbl will, of course, be in 303 Brit but I've been in search for a bigger factory cal that would not involve swapping the extractor each time I switched the bbl.
After some research with CotW I discovered the 444 is very close in casehead dimensions, so much so that it's a perfect cartridge for the job.
I also checked Aussie company Cast Bullet Engineering for their listing of gas-checked 430 cal pills.
They make moulds for 185gr, 245gr, 260gr, 270gr, 325gr and 340gr gaschecked FNs and the 340gr looks like serious fun.
It's a way down the track yet before I start building the rifle but it certainly looks interesting and based on people's experience here it's a great hitter.

bcummings · « **Reply #42 on:** January 21, 2011, 07:15:10 AM »

I like the 45/70 killed deer up to 300 yards and they never moved

gcrank1 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 10, 2011, 05:17:49 AM »

Kombi, that sounds like just the ticket for your ME!
Per the OP, dead is dead and within the stated limitations all will do it with proper shot placement, however, on the top end basically where the 444 leaves off the 45-70 takes over and you can still load it down. Plenty, even more than plenty of data and components are readily available for the 45-70. Reloading makes them about all cost the same per shot, so that becomes a non-issue.
In fact, if you like to shoot you have to reload, you just have to, its kinda a 'rule'

.

JesterGrin · « **Reply #44 on:** March 03, 2011, 06:36:53 PM »

I have to say there has been a bunch of info posted here. But wait there is my Soap Box lol kinda wobbly though lol.

I have had the Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag and I was not very happy with its accuracy. As the best I could do with a scope no matter the load was between 2 to 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards. But I will say as others have that a Deer at 100 yards or less is a goner if you do your part.

If you cast your own I have found the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC to shoot well in the 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 group area at 100 yards with W-296. And if you jump over to the Cast Boolits forum there is a group buy going on for that bullet but at as cast .432 size which is what you need for the Marlin in .44 Mag

The .444 is an improved .44 Mag of which I think should have been called the .444 Maximum

. But for the Marlin in .444 you will also need a .432 slug if you cast. And especially for the .44 Mag the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC is a very good bullet.

I do have the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 that I mainly use for my Hog gun but have used it for Deer as well. And it is a THUMPER and very accurate. My favorite two bullets for it are the Hornady 350Gr RN which will give me 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards.

And the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC which will do just over 1/2 groups at 100 yards if I do everything right and will also kill with extreme authority.

But as said if you are going to shoot around 100 yards and less any of these three calibers will suit you well. But also as said if you do not plan to reload then the .44 Mag and the .444 would be the way to go. I would throw in the Marlin .450 but they are no longer made and thus I am not sure of the future of the Marlin 450 ammo.

emsemt911 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 28, 2011, 06:32:11 PM »

i am going the .44 mag route. Louisiana is changing their night hog hunting ideas daily. I like the round to set up 25 yds from the feeders. Just seems the choice for me.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #46 on:** April 28, 2011, 07:22:49 PM »

If you are just useing 320gr or less bullets the 444 works great.I carry the 45/70 because I feel the need for bigger bullets just in case

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #47 on:** April 29, 2011, 07:04:58 AM »

S.E.Ak,

YEP! Can never have quite enough, "just in case"

I just went up from a 355gr LBT/WFN to a BRP .462/465gr LFN, in the 45/70 RUGER #1, just in case.

Well in reality, was look'in for better groups.

By the way, those BRP molds are VERY well made and Bruce is a great guy to talk with. Very willing to provide info and tips as to what his and other folks tests have indicated. Kind of guy it would be great to sit down at the table with a large pot of coffee and a few hours to burn.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

RIF · « **Reply #48 on:** April 29, 2011, 07:38:22 AM »

I am not familiar with the 45-70. I know that when I was given a 444 for Christmas, there was no such thing as a 45-70 in a modern gun. I still have that old gun (1972), and I have three others. It is neat to see that the modern big bore craze was started with the humble, and yet most capable of them all, the 444 Marlin. I own four 444 Marlin rifles, three of them are the old 38 inch twist and one is the newer 20 inch twist. I have a preference for the slower twist as I feel it is more versatile. The newer, faster twist rifles are capable of shooting heavier bullets, but I question the need for extreme weight (beyond 350 grains).

The 444 is versatile. But this round is subject to being cast typed into the highly specialized, big game, short range only category. To my way of thinking the 444 Marlin is one of the most versatile hunting tools you can own today. I have sold all of my black rifles, surplus rifles, and ammo because I realize that the 444 Marlin outdid them in several areas, namely because it can be fed with such an incredibly vast array of fodder. And it can be loaded with almost any powder, including black powder in the pinch of circumstance, or even fast pull down powder. The 444 can be a shotgun, a round ball shooter, pistol bullets, and bullets up to 350 grains.

For some reason I have concerned myself with the idea that a rifle should be capable of doing all things. This is no small task. I feel that the 444 Marlin, probably the most stereotyped round in modern existence, can be the most versatile and useful tool in your gun cabinet. It can be used to kill pheasants with your shotgun load, and moose with your 300 grain bullet.

I love 44 magnum revolvers, and for a time thought that small carbines in 44 mag to accompany my revolvers were the answer. Since that time I have become a much better, and much more confident pistol shooter. Without much work, I was able to duplicate the accuracy of my carbine with open sights with my sidearm. I have watched folks that thought they could not hit a barn from the inside and were recoil scary, able to hit a paper plate with all six chambers at 75 yards with a weekend of practice. If you think a huge and heavy handgun that weighs as much as a rifle is the answer to all problems (x frame), my guess is that you have not carried that gun through mile and mile of hill and dale. To me these massive sidearms are just toys, and not tools meant to do the job. I love toys, and ALL guns, but to pack a seven pound pistol around and exclaim its virtues at the same time must take some will of character to execute without looking like you are saving face for buying an overpriced, almost useless toy. To each his own, in my world if it can't be done with a 44 special or 44 mag with a 4-6 inch barrel, it should probably not be attempted. I still own a 336 chambered in 44 mag. It is almost new in the box. It sits along side a rare 375 Texan. These won't be shot, as I don't need to, because I have a 444!

One can chamber and fire 44 special and 44 mag shells through their 444 rifle too, but I do not like to do this. I just load a few shells to fit the 444 and it is not that difficult to do this. I used to pack a shotgun, rifle, and pistol into the bush, I now just carry the 444.

teddy12b · « **Reply #49 on:** April 29, 2011, 08:03:42 AM »

I've only taken game with the 44mag rifle. I made a long winded report on it here years ago: (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,156526.0.html)

I went with the 44mag because it's legal to use in my state. If the other two became legal I don't know that I'd change anything. 44mag pistols have killed everything that breaths and putting the same round in a rifle only makes it that much better. I don't think you'd go wrong with any of the three.

Out of the three the biggest thing the 44mag has going for it are ammo prices ammo availability and less recoil. I don't think you'd go wrong with any of the three, but I see any "need" to go bigger than a 44mag for 100 yards or less. Not that it's a big deal, but I like that my rifle holds 10 rounds instead of 4 or 5. Not a big deal for hunting, but it's just another detail to through into the mix.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #50 on:** April 29, 2011, 09:24:47 PM »

Marlin started the 444 in 72 the same year they brought back the 45/70. Ruger #1 in the sixties and #3 I believe in 73

streak · « **Reply #51 on:** April 30, 2011, 05:59:56 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 21, 2010, 03:38:45 PM

Now that I've had a chance to do more work with the .444, I've changed my mind. It shoots as flat as a .308 out to 300 yards. I would let my .45-70 go but the .444 isn't going anywhere.

Yep!
That .444 Marlin will lay`em down way out there!!

JeffG · « **Reply #52 on:** April 30, 2011, 06:21:26 PM »

Quote

Go with the 45/70. You will never be sorry.

Either you know the wisdom of that, or you don't. Enough said.

john keyes · « **Reply #53 on:** April 30, 2011, 06:52:41 PM »

I've killed deer with both the 444 and the 45/70 and couldn't tell much difference. I've only shot one bullet out of each: 300 gr XTP and Rem 405.
In an accuracy comparison, 444P vs 1895G, they both can cloverleaf at 100 yds.

tough call....both are easy to please handloading, the 444 loves H4198 and the .45/70 eats just about anything and won't complain.

I like the .45/70 at 12 or 1300 fps with the 405's. I loaded some up with H322 that were getting 1700 fps and that will wake you up.

the .45/70 brass is getting expensive, like everything else.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #54 on:** May 01, 2011, 06:14:29 AM »

AS pre 45/70 brass prices, There is a soon to be over, group buy going on as we speak, over on the Cast Boolit forum.

Starline Brass.

I thought Buffalo Arms had a pretty good price, but this Group Buy offers REALLY GREAT PRICES!

Keep em Coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Geezer02 · « **Reply #55 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:52:13 PM »

Just to add a little more information regarding comparing the .444 and the 45-70 with factory ammo, here is a comparison with factory ballistics for some of the most popular ammo for each. I added the Horn FTX 300 yard info because the 325 Horn. 45-70 uses that style of bullet too. I couldn't find the 200 yard info for the Rem loadings.

G02

Rem. 444 Marlin 240grn bullet (JFP)
Muzzle velocity: 2350 fps. Muzzle energy: 2942 ft/lbs
Velocity at 100 yards: 1815 fps. Energy at 100 yards: 1755 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 300 yards: 1087 fps. Energy at 300 yards: 630 ft/lbs.

Horn 444 Marlin 265grn bullet (JFP)
Muzzle Velocity 2400 fps, Muzzle energy 3389 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 100 yards: 1976 fps. Energy at 100 yards: 2298 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 200 yards: 1603 fps. Energy at 200 yards: 1512 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 300 yards: 1298 fps. Energy at 300 yards: 991 ft/lbs.
FTX 265 Vel 300 yards: 1380 fps. Energy at 300 yards: 1120 ft/lbs

Rem. 45-70 300grn bullet (JFP)
Muzzle velocity: 1810 fps. Muzzle energy: 2182 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 100 yards: 1497 fps. Energy at 100 yards: 1492 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 300 yards: 1073 fps. Energy at 300 yards: 767 ft/lbs.

Horn 45-70 325grn FTX Bullet,
Muzzle Velocity 2050 fps. muzzle energy 3032 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 100 yards: 1729 fps Energy at 100 yards 2158 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 200 yards: 1450 fps Energy at 200 yards 1516 ft/lbs.
Velocity at 300 yards: 1225 fps Energy at 300 yards 1083 ft/lbs.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:01:52 PM »

So, I can do the same 'job' with the 300gr. 45-70, at less velo and less abuse to me and the rifle! Good to know

Geezer02 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:03:53 PM »

That's certainly one way to look at it.

G02

Casull · « **Reply #58 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:52:01 PM »

Quote

So, I can do the same 'job' with the 300gr. 45-70, at less velo and less abuse to me and the rifle! Good to know

Well, if you consider one third less energy and a more arched trajectory as the same "job".

gcrank1 · « **Reply #59 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:43:44 AM »

I dont subscribe to the 'ft/lb.' of energy to be very meaningful in real world hunting, though it is a pretty good predictor of performance on steel targets. JMHO, but there are some better predictors of possible performance, ie, Taylor's Knock Out Formula, etc. Moderen hunting bullets with controlled expansion and all have gone beyond what the ft./lb. method can tell us.
A big heavy bullet in the kill zone , or headed to it with correct placement has been doing the 'job' for a lot longer than my lifetime, and I suggest it it do so long after.
I dont see any 'mid-range traj.' figures in the above, but if I check my Hornady tables they wont be too far apart between the 265/444 and the 300/45-70, and if I could put one in the kill zone I could put the other too.
I like the .444, and had a Marlin in it, but I found easier and happier accuracy and a greater selection of bullets to use in the 45-70, but thats just me, YMMV.