Author Topic: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70 (Read 18515 times)

Swampman · « **Reply #90 on:** August 06, 2011, 01:36:18 AM »

Believe what you like. It's actually more powerful than the .308.

243dave · « **Reply #91 on:** August 06, 2011, 05:08:11 AM »

I know the 444 is more powerful than the 308win, thats not the dispute, the dispute is the trajectory. Power and trajectory are totally different animals, lets not confuse them.
Back to the OP.....my vote is for the 44mag......for small-medium deer out to 100yds a 44mag is big medicine. The 444 and 45-70 are great also but recoil can be brutal and they are more powerful than needed.
Dave

BBF · « **Reply #92 on:** August 06, 2011, 06:27:10 AM »

To use the 44 Rem up to 100 yard you need to have pretty much a full house load on big game.
Both the 444 and more so the 45-70 can be used to the same range with much reduced loads.

PAPI · « **Reply #93 on:** August 06, 2011, 07:19:11 AM »

Hey all ,
I posted this info on the " H&R " section, but it also has some pertinentt application here, as well !!
Here are a few photos of the " Big Bore Bullets " that are currently undergoing testing for future production.

The above " Solid & Hollow Point Bullets " are being tested & modified to work within safe " 45/70 ; Loads/ Velocity/Pressures ", using the " Marlin 45/70 " as a test Rifle, which should be fine in our " H&R 45/70 " as well.

Just an " UPDATE " : R&D New Plastic Tips Inserts to improve " B.C. "

Just sharing an additional " FYI " on the new , Non Conventional Bullets.
The below link, contains a detailed " Commentary / Evaluation " , along with Hunting photos.

Non Conventional Bullets (Non Cons)
" The Bullets of the future! ... "
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/Non-Conventional-Bullets.html

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/45-70-Terminals.html

PAPI

Casull · « **Reply #94 on:** August 06, 2011, 07:48:32 AM »

Quote

To use the 44 Rem up to 100 yard you need to have pretty much a full house load on big game.
Both the 444 and more so the 45-70 can be used to the same range with much reduced loads.

The OP was about deer hunting. A .44 mag will completely penetrate a deer at 100 yards with something less than "full house" loads. It IS the ideal for what the OP was looking for. Any more is not needed.

243dave · « **Reply #95 on:** August 06, 2011, 08:16:06 AM »

Casull, I agree completely the 44mag in a rifle is more powerful than most think especially with 300gr loads. Full house loads out of a 44mag rifle has the trajectory for a 150yds with the proper sights and zero and has the power to be effective much farther. I'm not saying Scatterbrain is wrong, he's not. I just happen to think on deer the 44mag is very effective on deer out to 150yds. If we were talking about game such as elk, moose and big bear I would definately agree Scatterbrain.
PAPI, those are some neat bullets, I bet they work well on deer.

Dave

PAPI · « **Reply #96 on:** August 06, 2011, 11:53:48 AM »

Well Guys,
This is the " BIG BORE FORUM " , and the " OP " did ask for a comparison... !

IMHO: The 45/70 ( with New Bullets ) will outclass the " 44 mag & 444 " , while hunting " Deer , along with any ; Hogs / Elk / Bear / or Cape Buffulo ".

Now, ..the " Heavier Bullets " generally tend to favor a highier " B.C. " in most cases.
I.E.:

370 BBW#13 NonCon with a plastic tips insert: Preliminary testing estimate (458 B&M) ; B.C. .634

420 BBW#13 NonCon with a plastic tip insert: Preliminary testing estimate (458 B&M) ; B.C. .657

45-70 Effective Range: Ridgerunner665 : " Put a real bullet in those tables... "

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,92246.0.html

Why limit oneself by hunting with anything less than , a " 45/70 " ... I'll also take advantage of every " Bullet & Powder Charge Possible ".

PAPI

Casull · « **Reply #97 on:** August 06, 2011, 12:18:00 PM »

Quote

Well Guys,
This is the " BIG BORE FORUM " , and the " OP " did ask for a
comparison... !

Well, actually here is what the OP asked:

Quote

On small to medium sized deer, does anyone of these calibers perform
noticeably better than the others out to 100 yards?

thanks,
300

So, I'll stand by my last post and hold that under those conditions the .44 mag is just as good as the others. You can't get much deader than dead.

PAPI · « **Reply #98 on:** August 06, 2011, 12:45:29 PM »

Code: [Select]

On small to medium sized deer, does anyone of these calibers perform 

noticeably better than the others out to 100 yards?

Okay by me

I just happened to focus on the " noticeably better than the others ... "

" Is the cup half full or half empty " .. ?

Just depends on how you look at things

PAPI

243dave · « **Reply #99 on:** August 07, 2011, 04:28:10 AM »

We are talking about deer under 100yds, the 44mag and 444 has the capability to drop them where they stand, so how is it the 45-70 is "noticebly better than the others"?? The bullets you keep posting may be great for big dangerous game but for deer are just a waste of money, cast and jacketed bullets will do just fine. There is no doubt the 45-70 will out perform the 44mag and 444 with the heavy and specialized bullets but for what the OP wants to do it comes at the cost of lots of recoil and money with no true benefit on deer.
Perhaps it is a question of "Is the cup half full or half empty"... ? Maybe we all should go out and buy a 458 Lott and shoot $3 bullets out of it for those fierce and dangerous 120lb deer.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #100 on:** August 07, 2011, 06:43:28 AM »

Do you have a 45-70?

Casull · « **Reply #101 on:** August 07, 2011, 06:50:35 AM »

Quote

Do you have a 45-70?

Do you have a .458 Lott? What's the point of your question?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #102 on:** August 07, 2011, 06:52:21 AM »

I do not see .458 Lott in the topic line.......

Casull · « **Reply #103 on:** August 07, 2011, 06:57:23 AM »

Ok, then. Do you have a .44 or .444? Again, what is your point? Do you think a 45-70 will kill a 120 pound deer better than the other two?

PAPI · « **Reply #104 on:** August 07, 2011, 07:50:35 AM »

No " Debates " on my part ... Just some simple facts " IMHO "..

1. Unfortunately .. I reside ( might change soooon) in an area where " * All Lead Bullets * " are * Banned for Hunting * (California Lead Free ).. Hence my preference for " Copper or Brass Bullet " selections, along with better Terminal Performance.

2. I don't consider the " CEB 295 grn Bullet " a dangerious game load.

3. I own two " 45/70 : Marlin & H&R " , along with a few other firearms.

4. I don't have a problem with taking advantage of any edge, whenever possible; Better Sights / Scopes , etc. , which by the way add to cost $$$$. So, why would I scoff at buying premium bulets. I'm hoping on using one, maybe two ($ 6 dollars ?), for the actual hunt. I do practice with lots of lead.

What do most you guys spend on a hunt : Gas / Supplies , etc..... ?

5. What happens when the " Deer " won't stand still @ the " 100 yard line ".. ?
45/70 Effective Range

I'm not trying to justify what cartridge is " Better than the others ".. I've already made my choice.. twenty years ago !!

However, I don't mind chiming in , and sharing information with anyone asking

PAPI

gcrank1 · « **Reply #105 on:** August 07, 2011, 07:54:48 AM »

My question in response to 243Dave was to the veracity of his determination and comments regarding the 45-70; ie, from experience or what?
To your question, I have had the 44Mag and 444Marlin rifles, and still have 2 45-70s. I have some real world experience with all three, and though not an 'expert', I believe that shooting and reloading experience counts for something. You may disagree......
As to my 'point, I might ask, why the Casull?

243dave · « **Reply #106 on:** August 07, 2011, 08:15:35 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on August 07, 2011, 06:43:28 AM

Do you have a 45-70?

Not anymore, hardtimes has forced a reduction of firearms. I will get another someday, its a fine cartridge. Do I need another?? Nope, I've held on to my 45colt winchester trapper for deer hunting in the woods, and it does a good job. The old colt loaded to 44mag pressures and 300gr bullets gives 1600fps out of a 5.5lb gun and will travel end to end on deer. All three are good cartridges but I feel when loaded with similiar bullets and used on deer under 100yds one is as good as the other. If the game was larger(elk, moose and big bear) the 45-70 would really shine with its heavy bullets and its extra powder capacity. I'm not slamming any of these three cartridges and can understand a fellow owning any or all of them but when it comes down to deer under 100yds a 44mag will do fine.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #107 on:** August 07, 2011, 08:30:43 AM »

Well said

.

Casull · « **Reply #108 on:** August 07, 2011, 08:30:58 AM »

Quote

As to my 'point, I might ask, why the Casull?

No particular reason than I wanted one. It certainly doesn't kill small to medium deer any better than my .44 will. By way of example, I've shot about 15 deer with a 240 gn jhp .44 bullet out of a muzzle loading rifle (which roughly equals a .44 rifle load) and have never recovered a bullet. All deer were between DRT (neck shots) and 60 yards from point of hit. Most ran about 30 yards. Again, for what the OP was looking for, there is no BETTER round than the .44

gcrank1 · « **Reply #109 on:** August 07, 2011, 08:54:31 AM »

Yeah, it is probably more a matter of semantics with that 'better' word........it has a lot of relativity wrapped up in it.
By the performance defined here, the 44s and 45s are adequate, to more than adequate, to that magic 100yd (and for some marksmen, beyond). Easy to live with and reasonably cheap to reload too. Though I have to agree that a decent 44 cal muzzleloader can vary its performance levels quite a bit, and no cases, dies, etc. are required (been there, done that too).
At this point in my life I dont mind having a cartridge with more potential, even if I only get my deer at 100 or less. I can load it light to heavy, and cheap too. And mine shoots well beyond 100yd. accurately. How old is that outdated 'has been' cartridge anyway.........?
A lot of 'new' or 'recent' comers to these big bores often dont realize the wide range of power/performance levels a fellow can build with a longer case. I know there have been quite a few praises for the 45-70 in this regard, and the 444 will be similar (and I kinda like those long cases, but BBs 45-120 puts me to shame).
If a guy gets a 44M or 45C and loads it to top he will likely do well as long as he knows his, and the cartridges, limitations.
And have a good bit of fun too.

ihookem · « **Reply #110 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:20:16 PM »

Just talking deer under 100 yards? The 44 mag works good. I only have 2 experiences with the 44 cal. in Rem 240 sp. One buck @27 yds. went right through the deer. One small bear @ 15 yds , went 30 yds. I like the 44 mag. Cheap brass, cheap bullets, 20gr powder can make a lot of meat.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #111 on:** August 29, 2011, 06:49:29 AM »

Well, I just looked back at the O.P. and there is no indication of that poster owning one or all of these firearms, so for me at least it would come down to what I wanted, versitility AND COST!

Being like many/most avid shooters, I'd likely want at least one of each which would also take care of the versitility factor.

However, realitity being what it sometimes is, COST!! does, at least at this house, prove to be a huge factor if I'm looking for a working/hunting firearm.

So, if cost is a factor, and it is, then the versitility - best bang for the buck (pun intended) - begins to rear it ugly head.

The O.P. does not indicate if he will have the oppertunity to hunt anything other then the deer he speaks of so in his case, as has been pointed out, the .44 will do just fine within the confines of his post. End of discussion, or is it?

Does somewhere in the back of the O.P.s mind lurk the dream of a black timber hunt for that once in a life time bull elk?

Hmmmmmmmmmm??? we don't know. But if it does, the .44 is clearly out and if the dream of black timber desolves into high and open meadows, very possibly all three due to the possibility of extended ranges.

Where does this leave us? Well, in light of the info given in the O.P. it still comes down to personal likes/dislikes and opinions and the bucks available.

Therefore, with my limited experience, but now having taken an elk with a cast boolit, I'll hang with, "make mine the 45/70".

It is not just good/big enough, it is AWESOME!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Cabin4 · « **Reply #112 on:** August 29, 2011, 07:09:49 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on August 06, 2011, 01:36:18 AM

Believe what you like. It's actually more powerful than the .308.

Uuugg. How do we get on a 308 when the discussion is about 44/444/45-70...........?

Swampman · « **Reply #113 on:** August 29, 2011, 08:15:47 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on August 03, 2011, 12:30:12 AM

When we consider that a properly loaded .444 has the same trajectory as a .308 Winchester out to 300 yards then the brush gun idea becomes a moot point.

You just have to work on your reading skills.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #114 on:** August 29, 2011, 09:17:32 AM »

Swampman,
One thing we hardly need to be concerned with is you talking out of "both sides of your mouth".

Swampman · « **Reply #115 on:** August 29, 2011, 11:00:25 AM »

That's true....because I tell the truth. It's easier to remember.

BBF · « **Reply #116 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:06:38 AM »

A 308 Win loaded with the 100gr semi jacket or 110 gr RN is still flatter shooting then a 44 Rem.

Swampman · « **Reply #117 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:17:15 AM »

I don't think anyone is talking about a 44 Rem.

Spanky · « **Reply #118 on:** August 31, 2011, 06:05:57 AM »

Quote from: Cabin4 on August 29, 2011, 09:17:32 AM

Swampman,
One thing we hardly need to be concerned with is you talking out of "both sides of your mouth".

Really?? Why does this kind of nonsense always have to get started?? It has nothing to do with the topic and there's no need for it. We're all adults here so lets act like it.

In response to the OP's question... I don't think any one of the three is better than the other at reasonable distances. All three of them are bad medicine for whitetails.

Spanky

gcrank1 · « **Reply #119 on:** August 31, 2011, 06:33:23 AM »

I guess I just 'inferred' that he meant 44 Remington Magnum; about as 'specific' as the 44 in the topic line considering it is a std. H&R chambering.
Or did I miss something?