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Author Topic: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70  (Read 18525 times)

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Offline McDerry

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2011, 09:12:16 PM »
Taylor Knock Out isn't much different between the 444 and a light bullet 45/70
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Offline 1895gunner

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2011, 07:06:35 PM »
That is a good question; 44, 444 or 45/70. I like em all so I just flip to see which one goes hunting with me. Here in Florida anyone will work on our game animals. Won't be shooting beyond 100 yards max anyway, at least I won't be!
 
1895G - 45/70

 
444P

 
1894P - 44 Mag
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Offline cabledad

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2011, 01:19:30 AM »
I see 2 of your rifles are ported,what do you think.I just bought a 45 70
thompson Center encore with a ported barrel,I know I wear hearing protection.Chuck
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Offline cabledad

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2011, 01:21:41 AM »
I see all 3 are ported,too early in the a.m. I guess.Chuck
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2011, 05:38:55 AM »
Too early for you.
I thought all three were the same rifle..........
Saw a chap with a 44M ported Marlin walking around a gun show last fall, asking $425ish? I almost talked to him, now Im thinkin'............
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2011, 08:21:33 AM »
The ported guns are very loud.
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2011, 10:53:48 AM »
Well,  I had a .44 Marlin that I wish I still had,  but this morning at 7:10AM, my 45/70 RUGER #1  Took my second ever cast rifle boolit critter.
A huge cow elk in a special, any weapon, anterless elk hunt.
The penatration of that 465gr. boolit was totally awesome even starting at shade less then 1700fps.
Figured I'd never retain a cast boolit shot into a critter with the 45/70, but this boolit stopped just under the hide on a front quartering shot, after taking out the front shoulder, a lung, going through the paunch and almost exiting the critter.
Liked the .44, but make mine a 45/70
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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Offline BBF

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2011, 02:38:43 PM »
Marlin must have made the 444 prior to 72. I left AZ for Canada in 71 and bought a straight stock 444 with a 24" barrel at a pawn shop.
 
I did buy a 444 some time later with a pistol grip. If a friend of mine would not have begged me on his knees to sell that rifle I would never have gone the 45-70 route.
 
It probably isn't exactly fair to compare recoil between a Marlin and a Handi. One thing is for sure, a full load 444 with the 265 Hdy doesnt rock you near as much as a full house 350 gr bullet from the 45-70.  O U C H !!
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Offline 1895gunner

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2011, 02:53:43 PM »
The ported rifles don't bother me since I always wear ear protection anyway while shooting, even in the field.
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot, good to hear from ya since MO is still down! Good news on your hunt - congrats.
 
Marlin's first edition 444's were straight stocked long barrels, then they went to pistol grip except the 444P Outfitter which I have.
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Offline BBF

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2011, 07:25:57 AM »
Quote from: 1895gunner on August 01, 2011, 02:53:43 PM
..................................
.....................................................

 
Marlin's first edition 444's were straight stocked long barrels..................

For supposedly a brush gun that never made any sense to me.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2011, 01:26:20 PM »
Quote from: scatterbrain on August 02, 2011, 07:25:57 AM
Quote from: 1895gunner on August 01, 2011, 02:53:43 PM
..................................
.....................................................

 
Marlin's first edition 444's were straight stocked long barrels..................

For supposedly a brush gun that never made any sense to me.

  That's because there's NO SUCH THING as a gun legal to hunt with, that will shoot through brush!
 
  DM
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Offline BBF

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2011, 01:42:10 PM »
Drilling Man ;)
 
You give the word "brush gun" a different meaning then I do. I was writing about a gun, not a caliber or bullet. Looking at "brush gun" from your perspective I agree.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2011, 12:30:12 AM »
When we consider that a properly loaded .444 has the same trajectory as a .308 Winchester out to 300 yards then the brush gun idea becomes a moot point.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2011, 02:16:05 AM »
Swampy:  Good point.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2011, 04:34:07 AM »
Traj., yes; wind drift, no,
Most shooters cant read wind and after 150yds their drift caused misplaced hits get pretty dramatic.
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12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2011, 05:31:45 AM »
Most shooters can't hit anything past 100 yards even with a scoped .308.  The .444 and the .45-70 will do just fine out to 300+ yards if you do yours.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2011, 05:55:44 AM »
WOW, I am a long ways, at this moment from making a 300yd rifle from my 45/70.
 
However, The "put em down" factor is totally AWESOME!
 
Don't have a lot of experience in that department, just the whitetail last Fall and the huge barren cow elk I took Aug. 1st - 2 days ago - at 7:10am.
 
Very impressed! to say the least, plus having this part of my season over, now have until the 10th of October before the general season opens.
 
Hope to get the groups more in line and work towards where I feel OK out to at least 200yds.
 
Did the casting session yesterday with a 50/50 WW &  lead alloy, quenched directly from the mold as per the mold makers recommendations, so will be back on the testing trail before long.
 
Anyway, 2 for 2 at this point with the 45/70.
 
Keep em coming!
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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Offline BBF

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2011, 06:21:25 AM »
What trajectory program, bullets and velocities did you use to come up with the conclusion that trajectories of the 444 and the 308 Win are the same?? :o
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2011, 07:02:35 AM »
You won't find the .444 loads I'm talking about in a reloading manual.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Casull

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2011, 07:26:24 AM »
 
Quote
You won't find the .444 loads I'm talking about in a reloading manual.
     That sure doesn't sound like one that is "properly loaded" then.
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Offline BBF

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2011, 07:47:42 AM »
+ 1
 
Just give me the info on velocity and bullet.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2011, 08:26:34 AM »
Quote from: Casull on August 03, 2011, 07:26:24 AM
Quote
You won't find the .444 loads I'm talking about in a reloading manual.
     That sure doesn't sound like one that is "properly loaded" then.

You just have to know what you're doing, and have a Winchester in .444.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Casull

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2011, 08:49:17 AM »
Quote
You just have to know what you're doing, and have a Winchester in .444.

 
 ::)
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2011, 09:44:25 AM »
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Mikey

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #84 on: August 05, 2011, 05:14:38 AM »
Casull:  Swampy is right again.  If you want to see what the 444 is capable of, and all within recognized pressure limitations for the cartridge and the rifles that shoot it (The Winchester 94AE is my preference), get on over to the Beartooth Bullet website and read what Marshall Stanton has done with the 444 - you will be amazed.
 
I have used the Beartooth loads (bullets and powder charges) for a number of years now and won't use anything else in the 444.  These loadings are incredibly powerfull, accurate and have a 'wallop factor' I would never have imagined with the 444.  I really like the Beartooth 335 gn lbt style bullet at better than 2300'/sec from my 26" bbl-ed 94AE; of course, his 300 gn load at 2200-2300'/sec from my Traditional Rifle (20" bbl) would flatten a Elephant (so0 say the Cor-Bon guys who mimicked Stanton's loadings on a African hunt).  I have yet however, to really work on a heavy load for my 18" bbl-ed Timber Carbine - it will be either the 300 gn load for my 20" rifle or a heavier one, just haven't yet decided.  I have way to much fun with those 444 guns.......
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #85 on: August 05, 2011, 12:36:00 PM »
I have no info on the Winchester at all but I do have a 444P that I have been trying to wear out for a few years now.  I tried every bullet and powder combo I could come up with and nowdays I only keep one.  300 gr. gas checked cast at 2136fps 10 feet from the muzzle of the Outfitter will do anything I could want it to.  Accuracy and terminal performance have proven to me that I need to look no farther.  I'll spend my time developing loads for something else because I can't imagine expecting more from this rifle or caliber.  As far as which is better of the 3, well what do you think I'll say?
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Offline Casull

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2011, 01:26:43 PM »
Quote
Casull:  Swampy is right again. 

 
Really?  Which of those loads has the same trajectory as a .308?
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Offline BBF

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2011, 01:42:01 PM »
That is what I want to kow.
 
Even with Postell style bullets it isn't going to happen while keeping load pressure within SAAMI specs. Yes I have been to Beartooth and Montana Bullet Sites and still dont see how anything coming out of a 444 will match a SPBT from a 308 Win.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2011, 03:33:32 PM »
You just have to know what you're doing.
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Offline 243dave

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Re: 44 vs 444 vs 45-70
« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2011, 07:00:34 PM »
The 444 is a great round but it will NEVER have the same trajectory as a 308win at 300 yards even if you cram it full of C-4 and chilli powder.  If you believe it does then you don't know nearly as much as you think.  I know you will never post any factual numbers to support your claim, how do I know this ??  Because they don't exist.  You could have convinced me that a 444 shoots relatively flat for a big bore and I would have agreed when the round is maximized, the cartridge covers ranges encountered for most hunters.  The 444 is a powerful hunting round but comparing it to a 308 is a apple to oranges comparison.
Dave   
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