Author Topic: Accuracy Problems with .38/.357 Accessory Barrel (Read 2249 times)

dovehunter · « **on:** February 26, 2010, 01:25:39 PM »

I have had my gun back from the factory with it's new .38/.357 barrel now for about a month. During that time I have been trying fruitlessly to find some combination that will shoot relatively accurately in it. I have tried 158 gr. hard cast SWC bullets over either Unique or SR-4756 in both .38 Spec. & .357 Mag. cases and am hard pressed to get 5-shot groups under 3-4 inches at 50-yds. I figured maybe it doesn't like cast bullets so I tried some Hornady 125 gr. XTP hollow-points using the same powders with similar results (well maybe not quite as bad). I noticed that all the cases in which I had loaded the jacketed bullets had bad smudges about 1/4 to 1/2 the case diameter about halfway down the length of the case. Does anyone else have a .38/.357 Mag barrel on their Handi and, if so, what kind of accuracy are you getting? Is it possible that there is something wrong with my barrel? I had hoped to use mine for small game out to 50-yds. or so but so far it seems I'd be better off throwing rocks. I don't understand this as my .223 Rem. barrel (was on the gun when I bought it) and .22 Hornet barrel (also purchased from and fitted at the factory) are both tack drivers.

trotterlg · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2010, 01:52:05 PM »

Sooting usually indicates that the pressure rise isn't fast enough to seal the case to the chamber before the bullet leaves the case. A hotter load may help out, also a good crimp my help this issue. What is the shape of the group your rifle shoots? Larry

zoner · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2010, 01:58:08 PM »

my target load is 5.5 grs of 231,WSP primer, 158 gr RN cast bullet,1- 1-1/2 " triangular groups at 100 yds. Shoots Federal Hydra-Shok 158 gr HP @ 1" groups if I do my part.

dovehunter · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:00:26 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on February 26, 2010, 01:52:05 PM

Sooting usually indicates that the pressure rise isn't fast enough to seal the case to the chamber before the bullet leaves the case. A hotter load may help out, also a good crimp my help this issue. What is the shape of the group your rifle shoots? Larry

There doesn't seem to be any consistancy to the groups at all, that is it's not stringing vertically or horizontally - just all over the place. I have tried a few Federal .357 factory 125 gr. jacketed hollow points and they seem to shoot into pretty good groups - maybe 1" - 1-1/2" at 50-yds. This is sort of the accuracy that I had hoped for originally but have yet to achieve with any of my handloads.

trotterlg · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:15:18 PM »

So you know the barrel is good, it can shoot good groups if it has the right load. Now just find it. Try a couple of the standard powders for the 357, and load some at minimum and some at maximum and see which way the rifle wants to go, even loaded to +P levels. Pick a good jacketed bullet at the upper end of the weight range for the 357. Skip the 38 stuff, they will have a long jump to the rifling. That is how I would do it. Larry

Swampman · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:29:47 PM »

Mine shoot great at 25 yards with really light loads but at 50 it needs hotter loads.

manatee1947 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:42:52 PM »

I use 3.5 gr unique under a 185gr roundnose in a 38 sp case, seated out to an OAL of 1.60. I get .90 groups. I got about 1.25 groups with 158 SWC commercial cast over 6 gr of Blue Dot in 38sp cases. For hunting I used 158 gr hornady XTP over 13.5 gr of 2400 and got about 1.50 " @ 75 yds. At first I was kind of dubious about the accuracy, but after working on it, it is coming around well. Keep at it.

jy951 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2010, 06:05:45 PM »

Maybe it needs to "broken in"? Keep shooting, jacketed bullets and see if it gets any better.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2010, 02:09:22 AM »

Quote from: trotterlg on February 26, 2010, 02:15:18 PM

So you know the barrel is good, it can shoot good groups if it has the right load. Now just find it. Try a couple of the standard powders for the 357, and load some at minimum and some at maximum and see which way the rifle wants to go, even loaded to +P levels. Pick a good jacketed bullet at the upper end of the weight range for the 357. Skip the 38 stuff, they will have a long jump to the rifling. That is how I would do it. Larry

In my experience, Larry has given you the best advice. Try some of these loads or even some factory 357mag 158g loads.

jy951 also hit a good point, GO SHOOT IT!! not all barrels shoot there best till you get some rounds thru it, some do better after a couple boxes, others more.

Yours may also be a candidate for polishing, but don't go there till you get at least a half dozen boxes of 50 thru the barrel... One other thing that's worth looking at is the crown. A dinged or poorly cut crown will also do what your experiencing. Get a cotton ball and rub it lightly around yours. If it snags and pieces are pulled off it could be the culprit. If it passes that, get a good lite and a magnifying glass and give it a good look. Re-cutting the crown is basic stuff for any smith and can even be done yourself if your careful.

The 357 is usually a great shooter, give yours a chance.

CW

yukondog · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2010, 04:04:02 AM »

Mine does not seem to like the lighter bullets and wont shoot cast at all,it likes 158 and 180 xtp's and it took about 200 or so shots befor it setteled in.

Ranger J · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2010, 04:17:44 AM »

I don't want to discourage you but I shot everything but the kitchen sink through mine and never did get it to group worth anything. It seems that most of these barrels have shall we say 'generous' throats. Finally sold mine to someone that was going to ream it out to 357max as it was nearly there any way. There seems to be a lot of talk about the max on this site and that is probably why.

RJ

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2010, 04:37:46 AM »

All good advice here, I think trying 158gr and heavier with full power loads using the H-110/W296, 2400 or H-LilGun (my favorite) powders, should get you the groups you are looking for. Some need breaking in, others seem to shoot fine from the get-go. Good luck, you will enjoy it when you get it dialed in. DP

gendoc · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2010, 04:53:33 AM »

i would'nt ream mine due to the accuracy i have with my handloads.
less than .5" @50yrds with imr-4227 and jus bout everything jacketed
or plated 158gr bullets i've tried.

and 1 big hole with xtp's

zoner · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2010, 06:27:13 AM »

go back to the Unique and the cast 158's, check your data and start with a 38+P powder charge,load 5 using the crimp groove and label them somehow. Move up half a grain and load and label five more. Continue this process tillyou reach 1/2 gr below max,stop there. Shoot each 5 at a different target take your time. Mark each target so you'll know which is which, take em home and lay em out in order according to charge increase......should be quite a bit of information in front of you. Report back

Use 357 cases

dovehunter · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2010, 10:32:59 AM »

Quote from: zoner on February 27, 2010, 06:27:13 AM

go back to the Unique and the cast 158's, check your data and start with a 38+P powder charge,load 5 using the crimp groove and label them somehow. Move up half a grain and load and label five more. Continue this process tillyou reach 1/2 gr below max,stop there. Shoot each 5 at a different target take your time. Mark each target so you'll know which is which, take em home and lay em out in order according to charge increase......should be quite a bit of information in front of you. Report back Use 357 cases

Well after about my 4th trip to the range I have about concluded that my barrel just doesn't like the commercial 158 gr. LSWC bullets I have been using in my handguns. I tried everything you suggested and it just wasn't going to do it. Everything I tried was all over the target. When I switched over to Hornady 125 gr. XTP hollow points (over Unique powder) I was getting right at and just under 1" groups. Surprisingly my tightest groups were with .38 Special cases. I may shop around for some other commercial cast bullets as I would still like to use them because, if nothing else, they are a lot cheaper to shoot.

OldBob · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:10:03 PM »

What diameter are your hardcast bullets ?? My 357 MAX likes .360 best or .359 if I can't get them to cast bigger , most all of my Handis seem to prefer a cast bullet .002 over bore diameter . Are you getting any leading ?? If you are it very well may be an indicator of undersize bullets.

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:35:02 PM »

Yep, slug the bore and see how big those lead SWC's need to be. When you slug it you will also find out if there are any tight spots.

dovehunter · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:45:23 PM »

Quote from: OldBob on March 04, 2010, 01:10:03 PM

What diameter are your hardcast bullets ?? My 357 MAX likes .360 best or .359 if I can't get them to cast bigger , most all of my Handis seem to prefer a cast bullet .002 over bore diameter . Are you getting any leading ?? If you are it very well may be an indicator of undersize bullets.

The box says they are .358" dia. for .38 special/.357 magnum. I haven't miked them as they seem to do okay in my revolvers at 25 yds. or less. I have shot the heck out of these bullets in my Handi trying to find some combination that it likes when using them. So far I have not noticed any leading, even using near maximum loads. Maybe I'll carve up an old fishing sinker and carefully drive it through the barrel. Even if I find that the bore diameter is bigger than .358 I don't know what good it will do me since I don't cast my own and my usual gunshop only sells commercial cast bullets of .358" diameter.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:12:18 PM »

There are quite a few bullet mfrs that sell cast bullets that are properly sized for a .357"-.358" bore, generally that's .001"-.002" larger than jacketed that you'd use. There's a long list of mfrs in a sticky in the Cast Bullet forum here on GBO, a couple are listed below, BTB sells .3595", Montana sells .359", both make excellent bullets.

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/page5.html

dovehunter · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2010, 10:45:23 AM »

Okay, I have about decided that before I do anything else I need to establish the grove diameter of my barrel. The last time I did this - probably about 40 yrs. ago - I carved up a lead fishing sinker to just over the barrel diameter and drove it through with a stout cleaning rod. I worry now about damaging my barrel using such a jackleg procedure. Is there a better way and if so how do I go about it? Would it be better to take it to a good gunsmith and let him do it?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2010, 10:48:47 AM »

See Bore Slugging & Chamber Casting in the FAQs.

Tim

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #21 on:** March 09, 2010, 01:31:11 PM »

Be careful about slugging the bore, I've read some horror stories.

Mine shoots very well at 50 yards with softer slugs, Meister 130 .357" RN-FP cowboy bullets in .38 brass, Bull X 125 - .358" (out of business now I think) and any factory .38 spl LRN. I'm sure most all factory .38's are pretty soft.
I use light doses of quick powder, usually Titegroup, enough to reach just short of 900 fps. Titegroup does very well in .38/.357 with lead bullets, even with the low loading density I still get good SD/ES figures and very good accuracy.

Unique should be OK, SR 4756 is starting to get a bit slow for what amounts to .38 spl loads, assuming you are looking for sub-sonic small game loads.
FWIW, mine seems to prefer .38 brass for light loads, despite the jump to the rifling.
I would look at faster powders and softer bullets. Try a lighter bullet as well. 125/130 @ 900 fps should be plenty, unless your definition of small game is different than mine.

dovehunter · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2010, 03:39:20 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on March 04, 2010, 02:12:18 PM

There are quite a few bullet mfrs that sell cast bullets that are properly sized for a .357"-.358" bore, generally that's .001"-.002" larger than jacketed that you'd use. There's a long list of mfrs in a sticky in the Cast Bullet forum here on GBO, a couple are listed below, BTB sells .3595", Montana sells .359", both make excellent bullets.

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/page5.html

Okay I slugged my barrel. Incidentally 1/4 oz. egg sinkers were just about perfect. I drove two sinkers through the barrel just in case one proved to be an anomaly. Both slugs measured essentially .356" with my micrometer. As I said earlier I had horrible results with commercial 158 gr. LSWC bullets that miked .357". I got really good results using Hornady's 125 gr XTP hollow point jacketed bullets which miked out to .356". I had thought to order a hundred each of either Beartooth's or Montana's .358" and .359" bullets, trying each to see what works best. Does this sound like a good game plan? If not, what should I try next?

aromakr · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2010, 03:52:42 AM »

I'm surprised no one has suggested checking to see what the twist rate of your barrel is?? they were made in two different configurations.
Bob

cutshurt · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2010, 04:09:36 AM »

I know you said you don't cast your own bullets, but it is alot cheaper to do so and fun. I would try a LEE mould in a 9mm and a 38 with wheel wights for your alloy. You can soften or harden the alloy to find out what works best. The two moulds come with handles and would cost less then a couple of boxes of hard cast bullets and you can cast thousands of your own. I think in your case the 9mm may shoot better for you. And the best thing is you are the quality control.

ratdog · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2011, 11:34:35 PM »

slugged barrel on my 357 is 357 dia shoots 38 's fair 357's doesn't shoot good at all tried lead bullets factory loads groups got worse barrel is very heat sensitive never had a barrel as bad as this one at 25 yards my taurus 1911 9mm was shooting great better than 357. 357 is junk boxed it up today and sent it back to the factory i told them i don't want this barrel back and fit my receiver with a 44mag i have 8 handi's all shoot great this is a bad one i bought this precisely for 357 and thats it. what i don't need a crappy shooting 38 special.i like a challenge not a night mare.

Spanky · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2011, 07:33:22 AM »

Quote from: ratdog on October 02, 2011, 11:34:35 PM

slugged barrel on my 357 is 357 dia shoots 38 's fair 357's doesn't shoot good at all tried lead bullets factory loads groups got worse barrel is very heat sensitive never had a barrel as bad as this one at 25 yards my taurus 1911 9mm was shooting great better than 357. 357 is junk boxed it up today and sent it back to the factory i told them i don't want this barrel back and fit my receiver with a 44mag i have 8 handi's all shoot great this is a bad one i bought this precisely for 357 and thats it. what i don't need a crappy shooting 38 special.i like a challenge not a night mare.

I musta got lucky with my 357. I reamed it to Maxi and it shoots everything (and I mean everything) I put through it into tight groups. From 110gr. to 200gr. bullets and everything in between, lead and jacketed, 38's to Maxi's........ it just plain shoots great.

Spanky

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 03, 2011, 12:14:40 PM »

.356 sounds .....odd.
Is this micro-groove rifling with an odd number so you dont actually get a land to land diameter?
Moot point.
Use the largest dia. lead bullet that fits a fully fire-formed case mouth so you are filling the all important throat dia. with bullet. It doesnt matter if it is several thou' larger than your groove dia., it WILL swage down when you fire it and there will be no gas leakage and cutting up the side of the bullet, which ruins accuracy.

jackddavis · « **Reply #28 on:** October 03, 2011, 03:34:02 PM »

My .357 didn't like my cast lead handloads either, until I tried gas checks. What a difference! I've ordered some HBWC's and expect results similar to the gas checks. It seems the commercially purchased cast lead bullets are in the BHN 16-18 range and that is too hard. Try bullets in the BHN 10 area or try gas checks. I think you'll find the results you are looking for. The HBWC's are soft and the hollow base expands to seal well. Although I haven't tried them yet (they're on the way), I expect them to be the very best as far as accuracy goes. I'll load them over ~3 gr. of Trailboss for targets and small game/pests.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 03, 2011, 04:37:34 PM »

Quote from: jy951 on February 26, 2010, 06:05:45 PM

Maybe it needs to "broken in"? Keep shooting, jacketed bullets and see if it gets any better.

X2

When I first got my 357 accessory barrel it shot awful 6" groups at 50 yards. After 100 or so jacketed rounds down the pipe it quickly improved to 1 1/4" groups at 75 yards with 38 wadcutters using the factory iron sights.