Author Topic: Strange bolt hang up on Swedish Mauser (Read 3388 times)

Brithunter · « **on:** February 27, 2010, 10:02:25 PM »

Hi All,

I have a sporterised Swedish Mauser, no I didn't do it, anyway last Thursady I was out stalking Roe Does and despite the horrible mist and fog we got onto a group of four Roe which turned out to be two Bucks and two Does and got lined up on the largest Doe. Released the safety and found that on squeezing the trigger there was no firing spring pressue just the sear spring pressure. Something had hung up. Despite checking the bolt handle was right down and even easing the bolt back and finally ejecting the round and feeding another the problem remained. I finally got it cleared in time to see the Roe trot up the bank and up over the hill top ploughed field.

No matter what we try we cannot replicate this problem

.

The trigger and safety are the normal Mauser ones. The trigger has been lightened slightly by reducing the sear spring one coil and the face of the sear and firing pin nut have been polished the the sear height reduced slightly to remove creep and that was done years ago. I have never had any problems like this before in many years of ownership and using this rifle.

So any idea and suggestions would be appreciated.

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2010, 01:20:45 AM »

Brithunter: when you chambered the first round did the firing pin follow the bolt home or stay locked to the rear?

How did you finally clear the problem?

Do you have two 'faces' on your cocking piece - you said you polished the face on the cocking piece and shortened the sear height - is it possible that when cocking the rifle the sear may have slipped past the sear face into the 2nd notch (if there is one)??

Could it be that even though you maintain your rifles in sqeaky clean absolutely proper British condition (compliment here) that your reduced sear spring may have not functioned as expected and did not tension the sear or sear release into place?

??

I have a Husky M38 that has been sporterized but I pulled the wing safety and installed a Bold Trigger rather than to polish the sear face and reduce the # of coils on the sear spring because I feel that normal wear will get you to the same place (trigger pull and let off), eventually, and that you may be setting yourself up for problems later. As a parallel, I purchase new spring sets for one of my Smith and Wesson revolvers because years ago when I just used to cut the coils off the rebound spring and/or the hammer return spring (on some models), I would occasionally get failures to fire and sometimes even a cylinder hang-up.

Try pulling the sear spring and see if you can duplicate the problem and if that doesn't work then run the quesation past the gunnut69, the Moderator of the Gunsmithing Forum. HTH.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2010, 01:26:52 AM »

That is the first thing I thought of when you mentioned the trigger was "LIGHTENED".

The second thing is too much lube in the bolt. many of these guns are so well packed with grease that the firing pin spring and internals of the bolt get packed with grease that hardens and with cold really solidifies to the point where the pin cannot move forward with enough force to dent a piece of aluminum foil!!

Let us know what you find...

CW

1911crazy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2010, 06:27:46 AM »

It sounds to me the lower half of the mating sear didn't pick up the upper half. Since both of the sear halfs were ingaged you had no feeling in the trigger of the sear pressure. I would inspect and measure the sear heights to see how much there in contact with each other. Was the trigger replaced with an adjustable trigger? Was it adjusted too far back so it can lower the sear half in the receiver? Now the reliability is in question so I would change it all back to the stock condition. I bear hunt and deer hunt at the sametimes so the seasons overlap. And with mountainlions around my camp plus who knows what ever else i need a dependable rifle. Be safe comes first.

I lube my bolts inside with moly, by burnishing it in and wiping some excess off. I also add some moly on the sear faces so the trigger will be much smoother on the let off.

Brithunter · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2010, 12:51:05 PM »

Thank you your replies and thoughts I will try to answer your questions

Quote

Brithunter: when you chambered the first round did the firing pin follow the bolt home or stay locked to the rear?

The firing pin stayed cocked to the rear and I put the safety catch to it's first "upright" position and we stalked with it like that on a "Hot chamber". It also stayed back when I cycled the bolt and ejected the first round and loaded a second.

Quote

Do you have two 'faces' on your cocking piece - you said you polished the face on the cocking piece and shortened the sear height - is it possible that when cocking the rifle the sear may have slipped past the sear face into the 2nd notch (if there is one)??

Ok I have puller the tigger and sear assembly and have it on the table in front of me and no it only has the one surface to catch the firing pin nut on. However on careful examintaion I notice that despite my care the sear is only making contact on the left side for about two thirds of it's width

this of course means that the pressure is not is a straight line as it should be. The same witness marks show that it's only bearing on this same side on the firing pin but. I'll have to correct that as this sideways pressure is causing the sear itself to touch the side of it's slot in the action. I will polish the witness machining marks off both sides to give it some more clearence.

Now I doubt I can actually shoot this enough to cause enough wear to actually alter the pressures. As for lightening the trigger pressure I have reduced it yes but only to about 5lbs.

Quote

The second thing is too much lube in the bolt.

Only a light coating of oil in the bolt so I doubt it was this.

Quote

Insert Quote
It sounds to me the lower half of the mating sear didn't pick up the upper half. Since both of the sear halfs were ingaged you had no feeling in the trigger of the sear pressure. I would inspect and measure the sear heights to see how much there in contact with each other. Was the trigger replaced with an adjustable trigger? Was it adjusted too far back so it can lower the sear half in the receiver? Now the reliability is in question so I would change it all back to the stock condition.

The sear has 0.064" engagement the trigger is the standard one slightly re-worked in that I brought the tigger blade back further in the guard by softening the trigger bending the bow back then re-hardening.

Peaon · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2010, 11:15:20 AM »

Just what you need is another smartalec but I can't resist, do you thing the Roe believe in answered prayer?
I do think the 94/96/38s are great

Brithunter · « **Reply #6 on:** March 01, 2010, 01:16:54 PM »

Quote from: Peaon on March 01, 2010, 11:15:20 AM

Just what you need is another smartalec but I can't resist, do you thing the Roe believe in answered prayer?
I do think the 94/96/38s are great

Actually this particular Doe has a seemingly charmed life as it seems a client of the stalker missed two shots at her the week before. This particular little group has been living in this Hazel copse for most of the Winter.

Merle · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2010, 01:36:30 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter on February 27, 2010, 10:02:25 PM

Hi All,

I have a sporterised Swedish Mauser, no I didn't do it, anyway last Thursady I was out stalking Roe Does and despite the horrible mist and fog we got onto a group of four Roe which turned out to be two Bucks and two Does and got lined up on the largest Doe. Released the safety and found that on squeezing the trigger there was no firing spring pressue just the sear spring pressure. Something had hung up. Despite checking the bolt handle was right down and even easing the bolt back and finally ejecting the round and feeding another the problem remained. I finally got it cleared in time to see the Roe trot up the bank and up over the hill top ploughed field.

No matter what we try we cannot replicate this problem .

The trigger and safety are the normal Mauser ones. The trigger has been lightened slightly by reducing the sear spring one coil and the face of the sear and firing pin nut have been polished the the sear height reduced slightly to remove creep and that was done years ago. I have never had any problems like this before in many years of ownership and using this rifle.

So any idea and suggestions would be appreciated.

My M38 did something similar years ago during a military rifle match. I kept fiddling with the bolt until it completely locked up, so I had to withdraw. Once I got it off the line it worked normally, and has ever since. Never did figure out what the problem was & could not duplicate it again.

Brithunter · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2010, 11:52:31 PM »

Giving this more thought once I can afford the parts I will do the final conversion to include:-

Precise Metalsmithing Two-Position Safety Kit

Spare Bolt shroud ( to fit the safety to

)

Dayton-Traister GMS

Tmney Mauser Sportman trigger

Providing of course they will actually send the parts to the UK that is

mrussel · « **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2010, 08:35:16 PM »

How cold was it outside? Could the grease/oil have just gotten to thick? Try putting it in the freezer and see if it does it again.

mrussel · « **Reply #10 on:** June 02, 2010, 08:35:54 PM »

Quote from: mrussel on June 02, 2010, 08:35:16 PM

How cold was it outside? Could the grease/oil have just gotten to thick? Try putting it in the freezer and see if it does it again. (The stories of German soldiers at Stallingrad having their rifles jam comes to mind)

Brithunter · « **Reply #11 on:** June 02, 2010, 11:29:05 PM »

Not cold what one would call chilly, no frost that morning just fog, although I still don't know what happened I have a feeling it was something to do with the safety. It still retains the original safety but because of the scope the safety cannot be put into it's proper upright position as the flag hits the scope eyebell. So when it's engaged the safety it at an angle to the left of upright at about 10:30 when viewed from the rear. I wonder if in this position witht eh rifle moved about , joggled etc, as happens when on the shoulder held by a sling that the bolt shroud can move out of alignment and if that happens the firing pin is blocked from falling.

It's all I can come up with

.

And the answer of course is to change the safety to one that can be applied and engage properly. It's on the "To do list" Just had an old BSA sporterised P-14 re-barreled (.303 of course) and need to fisih sortign that out and get my casting set up sorted out so the Swede is a little down the list but that's OK as I cna use another rifle for my stalking until i can get the bits and fit them.

mrussel · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2010, 04:36:27 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter on June 02, 2010, 11:29:05 PM

Not cold what one would call chilly, no frost that morning just fog, although I still don't know what happened I have a feeling it was something to do with the safety. It still retains the original safety but because of the scope the safety cannot be put into it's proper upright position as the flag hits the scope eyebell. So when it's engaged the safety it at an angle to the left of upright at about 10:30 when viewed from the rear. I wonder if in this position witht eh rifle moved about , joggled etc, as happens when on the shoulder held by a sling that the bolt shroud can move out of alignment and if that happens the firing pin is blocked from falling.

It's all I can come up with .

And the answer of course is to change the safety to one that can be applied and engage properly. It's on the "To do list" Just had an old BSA sporterised P-14 re-barreled (.303 of course) and need to fisih sortign that out and get my casting set up sorted out so the Swede is a little down the list but that's OK as I cna use another rifle for my stalking until i can get the bits and fit them.

A set of high scope rings perhaps?

mauser98us · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2010, 05:28:56 PM »

Beleive Dayton Traister makes a trigger for it as well. They also make a cock on closing kit if one so desires. I left mine as is,other than working the trigger, I'm happy with mine.

Brithunter · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2010, 11:15:44 PM »

Ahhhhh already has high rings:-

As you can see and i have not removed the original sights, the front had to come off for the threading so it's daft to leave the rear sight base. I have also worked over the trigger and gone a bit further as I annealed it then bent the blade so it sits as far back int eh guard aspossible before re-hardening it and blacking it. The mounts are Hilvers and the scope a Meopta 7x50A.

Steve P · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:51:58 PM »

I have seen what you describe happen when the safety comes part way out on closing the bolt. This is a cock on closing action. The sear engages and as the bolt closes, the firing pin stays "cocked". If the safety is not fully (engaged or disengaged...one of the two) it stays part way out as it is trapped against the firing pin as the bolt closes. You can move the safety up and down, but it does not engage the safety notch in the firing pin. It holds the firing pin in place.

I found this out after buying an after market safety that would clear the scope. Yeah, it cleared the scope, but also periodically was jambed against the bolt keeping the gun from firing. Open and close the bolt a few times and the safety lands back in place and you never realize what happened. I didn't know what happened until I watched it a few times.....

Steve

Frank46 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 10, 2010, 06:25:44 PM »

Brithunter, just saw your pics. Just a suggestion here so it may sound funny. When you close the bolt are the lugs where they are supposed to be in relation to the chamber?. In other words straight up and down. From the looks of your pics your bolt may not be fully in position due to the bolt not being all the way down. Possible interference due too a narrow bolt notch in the stock. This might explain the off one side markings on the sear that you have spoken about. Just a guess on my part. Frank

billy_56081 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2010, 06:29:58 PM »

Son Of a Gun Brithunter, with all those Brit gun laws there you have a supressed rifle. Here it take a lot of signitures and a 200 dollar tax stamp.

Brithunter · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2010, 12:03:27 PM »

Frank,

I will have look tomorrow as it's all locked up now and check. but I think it's closing alright but as said I will check it carefully and see. Thanks for the tip.

Billy,

Yep supressed rifles are quite normal here. Strange that but there you are.

hillbill · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2010, 03:29:34 PM »

wish i could find a nice stock like yu got for my swede!

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** June 15, 2010, 03:22:48 AM »

hillbill: try a Richards Microfit stock for your Swede. The stock Brithunter has on his 96 is, or appears to be quite similar to the stock that came on my Husquavarna factory 98 in 8mm - same style and checkering. The Richard's stock I have for my M38 Husky made 6.5 is solid, with a nice grain and is top quality. HTH.

Brithunter · « **Reply #21 on:** June 15, 2010, 08:25:20 AM »

Sorry have not broken it out to check yet been busy. The stock is of American origin or so I believe. The rifle was commercially sporterised and new bits forced matched to the action. Wish I did know who did the conversion but the dealer I brought it from got in in a trade from another dealer so it goes on and no one seems to know where it came from.

Frank46 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2010, 07:49:40 PM »

Hey Brithunter, ever get your bolt problem squared away?. Frank

Brithunter · « **Reply #23 on:** July 04, 2010, 01:43:34 AM »

Not sure. As I could not make it happen again I just don't know. I keep looking at the Mk11 low safety I have and wonder about fitting it but then I think I would like something better on it so.................................. and so on

meanwhile I am playing with the BSA Model "D" a sporterised P-14 re-build and modifying a Parker-Hale sporter/target stock to fit it as the original is pretty trashed. This is what I am working with:-

The Bolt handle will need attention. Am considering changing it to a straighter type and will probably have to make one myself. The rifle was in very poor condition but it has a brand new 1954 vintage BSA made .303 sporting barrel fitted to it now.

Where they pulled and stripped the front sling loop out of the wood I have cut the tip off and cut a tapered inlet to follow the shape of the chequering into which I will inlay a piece of Horn to match the Horn piece I used to fill the butt plate tang recess. I started to make a new walnut fore stock tip that would have had this horn inlaid underneath but messed it up so now have to do another.

here is the tang recess Horn inlay:-

AAs to butt plate is missing and the stock cut flat and square at the butt it needs a new pad or plate but due tot he shape of the military butt a normal sporting one won't fit. It's too rounded at the toe so after looking around I brought a piece of Cape Buffalo Horn and will make a horn butt plate to fit it. now I just have to locate a new set of proper butt plate screws. Straight slot slightly domed head proper blacked wood type screws. Easy or so I thought

Frank46 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 04, 2010, 07:08:00 PM »

Brithunter, another of life's unsolved mysteries I guess. Love the P14 and model of 1917 enfields. If you have a stock military butt plate you could with some work make it fit. Cut off the top tang where you stuck the piece of horn, heat the plate after removing the trap door, screw and spring and I think there is a cross pin for the trap door. Take the bend out and you'll have to
add one screw hole near the top. I have seen one and while some work, came out pretty nice. Or maybe find a winchester type
steel butt plate and go from there. Frank

Brithunter · « **Reply #25 on:** July 05, 2010, 01:21:15 AM »

I did briefly consider altering a stock steel plate but the butts length of pull is a trifle short so it would need a spacer to bring it out some. Now the Horn I acquired is thick enough that I can make one about 1/2" thick should I need to but I am thinking a slightly dished face one of about 3/16" should suffice. I will make a stiff card template for the butts profile then rough out the shape before affixing it. It will probably be best to glues the plate as well as screw it in place.

I also briefly gave thought to making another walnut plate to fit this stock until I acquired the Buffalo Horn

Frank46 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 06, 2010, 06:13:39 PM »

Brit Hunter, not being an expert on buffalo horn but wouldn't it be kind of slippery?. I saw the piece you put on the stock and had that thought. That and kind of brittle. Frank

Brithunter · « **Reply #27 on:** July 07, 2010, 12:17:33 PM »

Hi frank,

Horn has been traditionally used for such things. In fact if you look at the Browning's butt plates from the 1950's then you will see they were Horn. I have a mid fifties Auto five and it has a Horn Butt plate. As for slippery. Yes if just left polished but I shall chequer it of groove it so it's not so slippery. The horn I have used so far was a domestic Cows Horn, the Buffalo horn is I believe denser and possible a bit tougher. I have a couple of rifles with Horn fore stock tips and one has a grip cap in horn i believe both rifles are over 60 years old and the horn is fine. Hopefully I can to work on it this week.

Frank46 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 07, 2010, 06:10:18 PM »

Have seen horn grip caps and forend tips made of horn although don't know what kind. Did see one custom rifle that had a buttplate fashioned from walnut that was checkered and really looked great. Had a few dings in the checkering though. Post some pics when you get it done. Would like to see how it came out. Frank

Hank08 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2010, 06:13:28 AM »

Brit, Rather than higher rings just cut the back tip off the safety where it contacts the scope and it'll work fine with your current setup.
I think your problem had something to do with the safety, somehow didn't get released.
H08