Manufacturing is leaving the US...FAST!!! How would you keep it here?

[scootrd]

There is a Japanese timber company  That purchased logging rights to our timber , They cut our trees using a logging subsidiary from the Japanese company  , then another Japanese furniture maker actually mills the wood and build the furniture on Japanese ships while heading back to Japan , then once in Japan they turn around and import the furniture from japan back to the U.S. and charge a US price.  somehow this all makes sense.. I elieve their furniture is sold through Pier one imports. I give up trying to figure all this insanity out.

[SHOOTALL]

Guess they learned from the Jap fishing fleet !

[Dixie Dude]

Sagegrouse, you are right, shouldn't be a mandate.  However, the feds could only buy 51% or higher made in USA products.  Highest % made gets first dibs.  The feds could require the states to do likewise if they get federal funding.  They already do this.  They required drunk driving laws, 21 year old laws for alcohol, seat belt laws, in order to get highway funds from feds.  States do have the right to opt out.  Wyoming did a few years back when they made the speed limit 55.  I think they finally lowered theirs when the feds said they would cut ALL funding, not just highway money.  I know this may not be right making the states do likewise, but states would probably do it anyways to get some factories back.  If the fed, state, and local governments converted their fleets to natural gas and diesel we could cut about 50% of the imported oil out.  Would create more jobs in natural gas vehicle maintenance and compressor servicing.  Also with gas utilities.  I do think we should be making ALL of our military equipment and clothing here.  Also ALL of our food should be produced here, EXCEPT what we can't grow.  Coffee, cola nuts, cocoa nuts, and bananas would probably be the only exception.  Removal of farm subsities would help Americans actually produce more.  Instead of the government paying farmers NOT to grow stuff, have them buy excess and store it long term for bad years.  

[SHOOTALL]

You will never ever find the right ansewer as long as you expect Govt. to be it .

[MGMorden]

I don't think there is any way to keep manufacturing in the U.S. until foreign workers unionize.  Rising foreign labor costs, the continued decline of unions in the U. S and the resulting lower U.S. wages,  will bring manufacturing back here.  Manufacturing will move to wherever cost is the lowest.  

And we have a winner folks!  

This isn't a problem that you're going to be able to "fix" By throwing legislation or waving flags at it.  Cut us off completely and we'll whither and die as an isolationist country while the rest of the world passes us by.  Don't cut us off and the sad reality is that foreign labor is cheaper - BUT, it's getting more expensive all the time.

The reality is that this problem is one that is going to have to eventually BALANCE out.  That's going to happen, but it's going to be a rocky road getting there, and we will come out of the other side with a lower standard of living than we once had, but no amount of artificial legislation or restrictions is going to prevent that reality.  The truth is in the little heyday we had for 30 or 40 years there, we were largely living on our currency inflated by our forefathers, and taking advantage of cheap foreign labor.  It caught up with us, as everyone knew it would.

Bringing back the work ethic and practices of the 1930's and 40's will not give you the life style we had in the 1980's and 90's.  That era is gone - for good.  We're going to eventually have to bring back the work effort of the 30's and 40's but still accept the life style that it in turn afforded back then.  Not in technology, but rather in what amount of returned goods and services one expects to get for a day's work.

[Cabin4]

Instituting tariffs as a means to capture tax revenues becasue a company off-shores jobs is just plain stupid. That is just another reason for that company to find yet another way to off-shore more jobs to off-set the increase of operating in the USA. Tariffs are designed to address unfair trade practice between one country and another, not a means to penalize a company for trying to keep its operating structure competitive. Companies primarily off-shore jobs to lower cost so they can continue to compete. If we want to incent companies (US or other) to bring jobs here, we need to have a tax structure and business environment that makes it gainfull.

[williamlayton]

The nature of a Republic is swings of the pendelum.
Those jobs leaving are leaving room for enterprising folks to fill the void--will take time---just the nature of things.
It will happen and better and more enterprising folks will fill the void.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

So some here think we can tax ourselves rich . yea you got a good grip .

[wreckhog]

I don't think there is any way to keep manufacturing in the U.S. until foreign workers unionize.  Rising foreign labor costs, the continued decline of unions in the U. S and the resulting lower U.S. wages,  will bring manufacturing back here.  Manufacturing will move to wherever cost is the lowest.  

And we have a winner folks!  

This isn't a problem that you're going to be able to "fix" By throwing legislation or waving flags at it.  Cut us off completely and we'll whither and die as an isolationist country while the rest of the world passes us by.  Don't cut us off and the sad reality is that foreign labor is cheaper - BUT, it's getting more expensive all the time.

The reality is that this problem is one that is going to have to eventually BALANCE out.  That's going to happen, but it's going to be a rocky road getting there, and we will come out of the other side with a lower standard of living than we once had, but no amount of artificial legislation or restrictions is going to prevent that reality.  The truth is in the little heyday we had for 30 or 40 years there, we were largely living on our currency inflated by our forefathers, and taking advantage of cheap foreign labor.  It caught up with us, as everyone knew it would.

Bringing back the work ethic and practices of the 1930's and 40's will not give you the life style we had in the 1980's and 90's.  That era is gone - for good.  We're going to eventually have to bring back the work effort of the 30's and 40's but still accept the life style that it in turn afforded back then.  Not in technology, but rather in what amount of returned goods and services one expects to get for a day's work.

I used to work for a huge European company that you have bought something from. Lightbulbs, tv's, coffee makers, etc. They set up border zone plants under NAFTA. Wages for skilled assemply line workers?  $25/week for 6 days x 14 hours, including meal time. Transportation and food included. I felt like a pimp expensing $5 tequilas and $25 steaks (fairly cheap hotel food IMHO) in my US hotel and going over the border each morning. They ended up closing the plants because offshoring to Asia was cheaper!

[Brett]

Instituting tariffs as a means to capture tax revenues becasue a company off-shores jobs is just plain stupid. That is just another reason for that company to find yet another way to off-shore more jobs to off-set the increase of operating in the USA. Tariffs are designed to address unfair trade practice between one country and another, not a means to penalize a company for trying to keep its operating structure competitive. Companies primarily off-shore jobs to lower cost so they can continue to compete. If we want to incent companies (US or other) to bring jobs here, we need to have a tax structure and business environment that makes it gainfull.

Sorry, I don't follow your logic.  If an American company had to pay high tariffs in order to ship goods into the US, negating the bennefit of cheap foreign labor, would it not be less attractive to move manufacturing offshore?

Naturally these same tarrifs would have to apply to foreign goods shipped into the US as well in order to level the playing field.

In addition we should eliminate or at least reduce corporate taxes so that staying in the US is more advantageous.  Like someone said we can't tax ourselves rich.
 

[teamnelson]

You will never ever find the right ansewer as long as you expect Govt. to be it .

+1

[mcwoodduck]

If I were made KING of the USA.  I think I only need
Easy.
1) lower all income tax rates to a flat 7% tax rate with a 35,000 deductible.  First 35,000 not taxed.
2) Change the payroll taxes.  Reduce the 2/3 the employer pays to 1/3
3) Make Social Security different- make it a true safety net for workers that want to opt out of the government paln and go with a private plan where your contributions are your own.
4) Start deporting all Illegal Aliens to France, China, or Afganistan Period.
5) set up a guest worker program: Non citicens that want to work and live here but do not want to be US citizens.
    They need to register,  Get an ID Card and with out it they get deported.
    They pay a flat 8% tax
    They pay a flat 5% to Social Security and Medicare and are not entitled to it.
6)Make all dividend checks from US owned and opperated companies Tax free.
7) put a 1% tax national tax on anything not made in the US.
Only allow Unions to take a 5% fee for managing the pension funds rather than the 20-25% they are taking now-

[skarke]

Sounds good to me McWoody

[nw_hunter]

The nature of a Republic is swings of the pendelum.
Those jobs leaving are leaving room for enterprising folks to fill the void--will take time---just the nature of things.
It will happen and better and more enterprising folks will fill the void.
Blessings

That would be fine, if we were still a Republic.
Madison defined a Republic as a Representative Democracy, as opposed as a direct Democracy. When was the last time you saw anyone representing us in DC?

The damage has been done, and it will take years to recover.

[SHOOTALL]

aren't we a federal form of GOVT ? A republic decribes the fact that we have no king but a chief of state in most cases a president . It also refers to the fact that power resides with the body of citizens who's power is exersized by elected officals . Federal denotes that the states allow the federal govt certian powers thru treaty or compact but retain other power . It would seem Federal is what we are and republic is how we do it ?

[Cabin4]

Instituting tariffs as a means to capture tax revenues becasue a company off-shores jobs is just plain stupid. That is just another reason for that company to find yet another way to off-shore more jobs to off-set the increase of operating in the USA. Tariffs are designed to address unfair trade practice between one country and another, not a means to penalize a company for trying to keep its operating structure competitive. Companies primarily off-shore jobs to lower cost so they can continue to compete. If we want to incent companies (US or other) to bring jobs here, we need to have a tax structure and business environment that makes it gainfull.

Sorry, I don't follow your logic.  If an American company had to pay high tariffs in order to ship goods into the US, negating the bennefit of cheap foreign labor, would it not be less attractive to move manufacturing offshore?

Naturally these same tarrifs would have to apply to foreign goods shipped into the US as well in order to level the playing field.

In addition we should eliminate or at least reduce corporate taxes so that staying in the US is more advantageous.  Like someone said we can't tax ourselves rich.
 

Tariffs are designed to protect commodity markets from predatory dumping of imports. Commodities such as steel, copper, coal, chips, etc. So say, China government decides to subsidize over production of steel to dump into the US market as means to put US steel companies out of business. In this case, a tariff is a good weapon to combat that. It would be miss-placed and far more damaging to try and use a tariff process against importation of manufactured goods that are off-shored for cost control reasons to begin with. Remember, American companies are producing product in low cost labor markets and selling those to the world, not just the USA. The company I work for sells 30% of its goods to USA, 40% in EMEA, 20% APAC and 10% S. AMR. This approach would put us out of business for sure, in all non-USA markets. More American jobs would be lost.

[Dixie Dude]

I guess because I am in the energy business, I push the idea of getting independent of imported oil.  Also of being independent of imported food.  I think regardless of price, we need to produce all of our energy and food needs.  With oil embargos, or even food embargos from foreign countries, this can bring us to a standstill.  I also think we should produce all of our military needs, no imported products.  With energy, food, and providing for our own military, this alone would keep a lot of jobs here.  If we have an abundance of energy production, we will be in a position to provide energy to industries.  If we produce all our food with plentiful excess, we can export the excess or the feds could buy it up and store it for lean years instead of paying subsities.

[Victor3]

 I do a little consulting for various small/medium-size US based companies concerning the outsourcing of various manufactured products to Asia.

 I could write a lot on the subject, but one thing stands out to me...

 Some of these companies have absolutely no idea of how much they're actually saving by sending their manufacturing overseas. Manufacturing labor is often only ~30% of the total cost of getting a product to market, but saving labor cost is often the main thing that some of the big wheels at a company fixate on. Some of the decision makers at these companies are terrible business people. They don't fully understand or take into account the cost of various details like paying for numerous expensive trips to their suppliers, increased supply chain costs, loss of control over their manufacturing processes, quality, and ability to make rapid and cost-effective design changes, etc.

 Many of the individuals they assign to oversee their operations in Asia are young single people who have an interst in keeping their high-paying jobs overseas. Some of them have no problem cooking the books to make it look like things are going great. Some smaller companies who really should hire an independent accounting firm to keep tabs on things only employ a few internal people (also keen on keeping their jobs).

 It's been a mad rush over the past 20 years for companies to keep up with the competition by outsourcing as fast as possible, often without serious consideration as to if it's cost effective for their particular product. After operations are set up overseas, domestic manufacturing capacity is done away with and can't easily be reproduced.

 So what does a company executive do in this situation? Admit that it was a bad idea to outsource? Not likely, if he wants to keep his job. He's going to stay the course and make sure everyone's repeating the same outsourcing mantra as he started out with.

[slim rem 7]

nobody here agrees .. but to me.. just become an isolationist country..
 fix things here ..then mabe open up a little at a time..simplistic.. mabe.. but i don t see a better,, bad choice or course of action. slim

[nw_hunter]

I do a little consulting for various small/medium-size US based companies concerning the outsourcing of various manufactured products to Asia.

 I could write a lot on the subject, but one thing stands out to me...

 Some of these companies have absolutely no idea of how much they're actually saving by sending their manufacturing overseas. Manufacturing labor is often only ~30% of the total cost of getting a product to market, but saving labor cost is often the main thing that some of the big wheels at a company fixate on.

I never thought about the other costs of doing business overseas. Saving money on labor has been the big thing with most corps. I remember some of the companies in the 70's that moved operations to Mexico, have now left Mexico for greener labor pastures in China and other countries...........Good read Victor!

[Graybeard]

If cheap labor were the only reason to run to Asia for labor then all the Japanese based auto makers wouldn't be moving their plants to the US. These days most of the Japanese brand autos, trucks and motorcycles are actually "Made in the USA" at least if sold here.

[Cabin4]

If cheap labor were the only reason to run to Asia for labor then all the Japanese based auto makers wouldn't be moving their plants to the US. These days most of the Japanese brand autos, trucks and motorcycles are actually "Made in the USA" at least if sold here.

Transportation costs and lead time to market is a huge consideration for the auto industry. Domestic manufacturing can make better sense in their case and in other industries. Many of the states that have benefited from the like of Toyota, Honda have been able to build domestic plants here because of long term state level tax incentives. Not to mention, it sells well with the public that you produce domestically.

Every industry is different and every industry has different cost drivers that will determine if cheaper labor markets makes sense. I have worked in the high tech electronics sector my whole life. The case for cheaper labor given the characteristics of our products and the fact we supply to all corners of the globe, make manufacturing in China absolutely unavoidable if we want to stay in business. We are in the process of moving our last domestic production from Huntsville AL to China right now. We will also be moving our last production from Mexico to China later this year. If we stayed in Huntsville and Mexico, we simply would be incapable of competing over the long term. I don’t like it but what choice do we have? (Rhetorical question) Our products are sold to business/commercial/corp markets so point of manufacture is not an issue. Our volumes are not high enough to warrant multi location manufacturing not would any state provide a tax break to off-set the added costs. So we just don’t have a choice.

[mechanic]

Make Nafta even handed.  When we import to China, they add a tariff.  When they export to us, they subsidize the export.  We pay both ways.....

Remove some of the tax debt on small business.  I know mega corps. can get around most of it, but smaller firms cannot.  If I sell you a forklift for $20,000 on a 5 year lease purchase plan, the total tax on that sale is due THIS year, not 5 years from now....Our business liscense costs over 20,000, (a local issue).  Very large firms in the same county pay a flat rate of $600.00 for the same.  The list goes on and on.  Approximately 70 cents out of every dollar is to pay taxes or insurance of some sort.  How can we buy new American made vehicles?  Or American made tools?............

[Dixie Dude]

I think back in the 70's there was a tarriff of a couple of thousand dollars on every imported car.  I think there is a law that states all vehicles have to be 51% made in the US for them to sell here and avoid the tarriff.  Autoworkers Union had Jimmy Carter get the tarriff bill to help American companies.  Management was for it also.  51% sounds like a good idea for other industries as well, just to keep some here.  It would probably backlash now, with tarriffs on American goods going to countries hurt the worse by our tarriffs.  We may be in a catch-22. 

[Rustyinfla]

  Quit taxing business! It's just an expense they pass along to the end consumer anyway.

[Cabin4]

I think the bottom line is our government (state & fed) are not incenting the business environment to combat off-shoring of jobs. One of the only ways to combat lower cost markets is the tax process.

[MGMorden]

  Quit taxing business! It's just an expense they pass along to the end consumer anyway.

If you stop business taxes then foreign labor is still cheaper, and they'll still go there.  The net result would just be even further inflated CEO and executive salaries. 

I'll try to dig up the link later, but I read a study a while back that said that at the turn of the last century, the average CEO made around 50 times what his average worker made.  Today, the average CEO makes over 500 times what their average worker makes.  They don't need anymore kickbacks than what they're getting.

[Oldshooter]

You will never ever find the right ansewer as long as you expect Govt. to be it .

+1

Interesting reading in this thread, I agree with Shootall. The government ain't the answer unless "they" would stay with the constitution and protect "US" from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Mostly they need to stay the heck out of the system and let it run. Maybe we should isolate and make us well, Let the world pass us by, when they start "prospering" they will start having the same problems we have now! We have industry, we have natural resources, We even have markets. Why not make it on our own. Do we need the foreign markets to be prosperous? 


Some times I think there are new "infiltrators" here that may or may not be "outdoor" enthusiasts but were sent here to spread the leftist agenda, cause with every post they espouse leftists ideas. Maybe like the progressives that have infiltrated our schools and now teach our children.  HMMMMMM?   

[Cabin4]

Make Nafta even handed.  When we import to China, they add a tariff.  When they export to us, they subsidize the export.  We pay both ways.....

Remove some of the tax debt on small business.  I know mega corps. can get around most of it, but smaller firms cannot.  If I sell you a forklift for $20,000 on a 5 year lease purchase plan, the total tax on that sale is due THIS year, not 5 years from now....Our business liscense costs over 20,000, (a local issue).  Very large firms in the same county pay a flat rate of $600.00 for the same.  The list goes on and on.  Approximately 70 cents out of every dollar is to pay taxes or insurance of some sort.  How can we buy new American made vehicles?  Or American made tools?............

What tariff and subsidies in China are you referring to? Is this in place for a certain product?

[torpedoman]

do a little research and see how many ford or gm plants are located in Japan (unless there has been changes in japan the answer will be none) sure the Japanese companies build plans here and employ Americans but the profit goes to Japan . Japan holds more of our debt than china. Harley tried to set up there years ago and had to sell production rights to a company called Rico to build harleys in japan for their market.