A case for the revolver

[SHOOTALL]

Been beat to death but lets approch it from a different direction . As a weapon of choice for an encounter that could leave you dead . The auto loaded has mant pluses over the wheel gun . More bullets on hand is a biggie , easy to reload another one to consider important , most work 100% or equal to a revolver in function of the weapon ( not the ammo) . With all that it appears the revolver is out dated and second rate even to a revolver lover , not really . People see alot of us older people with revolvers and say that's what they grew up with and other sayings . Well its a bit more involved to some of us . I enjoy the auto loaded and shooting it ( hate picking up empties to reload ) so it can be said i have no real dog in the fight. Now what else does the revolver have going for it that won't let it die ? One the ammo thing . So far a 357 mag bullet holds the record for 1 shot stops , many think (I do) that it has to do with bullet shape along with control and power . Also if a round fails to fire just pull the trigger and try a new on which is faster than a clear drill with an auto . The negative is a bullet jumping and stopping cyl. rotation ( here we can see nither auto or revolver is 100% ) . So what else ? A revolver can sit for years loaded and the owner can expect it to work when called on . Most agree an auto needs minor care but more than a revolver. So if we can agree in the real world both offer a good option but with different issues what would make us old guys keep the revolver or go back to it ?
I will list some thoughts and i hope some can add support others please add differing ideas .
First a revolver is easy to load and check .
with a revolver if it fails to fire you don't need a second hand to clear it just pull the triger . This is a concern whils holding a child or light . It could be of concern to us old guys with a bum hand or shoulder or if you get hurt in the fight .
I know and have praticed clear drills using the rear sight on something but if the mag has to be replaced it gets 2 hands or you hold the gun between your legs or such . Pulling the trigger seems faster at my age really.
You can shoot them from a pocket .
If you tote it in a pocket the cyl. opens the pocket in a way that aids getting your hand around the gun .
I pratice and enjoy not having to pick up spent cases . Reloading ammo is easier IMHO.
No safety to remember to place on or off ( yea Glock and such exoist but would you really shove one in a pocket or belt ?
Any thoughts ?

[Couger]

You mention some very good things about the wheelgun!  And using that tired phrase, "If it ain't broke, why "fix" it?"

My first weapon is I needed a sidearm would be a Glock G23 with its .40S&W fodder and quick mag-reloads.

But my "basic" revolver is a .357 Ruger Service Six.  

Prior to having that revolver, I had a stainless Security Six with its adjustable sights, and later acquired the Service Six as well.  Was able to compare them side by side!

I'm extremely pleased with the Service Six and its fixed sights because it will do everything I need it to, but its also the smallest full-size (4 inch) .357 revolver I've found ANYWHERE!  I like its compactness, its low profile and subsequent minimum weight while still being steel with a 4inch barrel.

If I had to arm myself with a .357M, I believe I ended up with the best .357 wheelgun for my purposes!  

Add to everything I've said I can also "service" that revolver in the field with my minimum amateur 'smithing' skills.  Hard to say the same thing for the Colts, S&W's, Wesson's, etc., etc.

I've since sold the stainless Security Six.

The Glock (whether a .40 or a 9mm or .45 or 10mm, etc.) and the .357M both have their place!

Thems are just sum of my thotts!  If faced with multiple threats I'd most assuredly want the hi-cap pistol.

If faced with one or two BG's or a rabid dog or snarling bear, yeah the .357 would work well (if not a forty-something caliber wheelgun for the bear!  Because it can thoeretically eat me.  Not just maul and kill me).  Both pieces have their place.  

[teamnelson]

My wheelgun preference is part heritage, part experience. I come from a multi-generational military family of outdoorsmen. My father raised me around semi-autos and revolvers, and when he passed away, he had a wheelgun in the holster on his scooter, and a collection of semis in the safe ...

I've got a few decades of exposing weapons to conditions similar to a survival situation, and I've been a unit armorer for whole bunches of folks doing the same. After my last combat tour I traded my decked out M4 for a 627-5PC, which is now my go to gun.

My reasons:
- Simplicity. Fewer moving parts = higher reliability. Glocks have like half the parts of a 1911, and much higher reliability history. Revolvers even fewer still.
- No magazines. Military studies have shown the top two points of failure with the M4 are: 1) shooter, most often failing to properly load and service magazine. 2) magazine.
- Clearing. Ever tried clearing with bullets flying at you? Anyone can pull a trigger again.
- Ammo. All semi-auto actions are dependent on ammo to cycle. Revolvers are not. You can also shoot BP cartridge in a revolver if it gets to the point we're back to making our own powder & primers.

#1, is based on my definition of survival. Which handgun in your arsenal do you imagine could be carried by multiple generations with no access to parts, stores and minimal tools, and used daily for hunting and self defense? I've got a 113 year old .38 s&w top break revolver that still puts 5 in a pie plate at 10 paces.

[spruce]

Everyone has brought up some really good points, both pro and con for both types of weapons.

I hope I'd never be limited to just ONE, but if I were then it would have to be a .357 revolver, 4" barrel, stainless steel.  Can't think of anything more versatile - everything from birdshot to 180gr full house loads.

I feel there are 3 weak links concerning an auto in a survival situation: 1) magazines becoming damaged or lost.  2) won't function with as wide a range of ammo types.  3) losing at least a portion of brass every time you fire it (empty cases to reload would probably be quite valuable).

The one scenario where an auto would have an undeniable advantage is if you were confronted with multiple aggressors. Not saying a well trained person with a revolver couldn't handle it, but it'd be easier with an auto!

[Swampman]

I won't own a semi handgun or rifle.

[Old Fart]

Revolvers just flat look cooler.

[teamnelson]

The one scenario where an auto would have an undeniable advantage is if you were confronted with multiple aggressors. Not saying a well trained person with a revolver couldn't handle it, but it'd be easier with an auto!

Fella at the range showed me a technique to rapid fire a model 10 faster than any semi on the range that day; guess its an old LEO technique.

[don heath]

I was an early convert to IPSC in the late 1970's and was a confirmed auto man. Imported the first two Glocks (10mm) to hit Africa...Now I shoot revolver class in IPSC and always carry a revlover. Why? I have needed a handgun six times in my life, really badly. This is different from 'busts' where we were going into a known hostile environment. That is one heck of alot of carrying for very little action.

In the first two instances I was fighting 'dissidents' and heavily outnumbered. I don't know that having an semi auto helped, but it certainly didn't hurt.

In the other 4 I was wearing an M58 on a lanyard (as per regulations). Two I had to fire left handed- one because I had just been shot through the right shoulder and the other becuase I was riding a motorbike and the lion was trying to join me on the seat.  The other two I had the 'privaledge' of using my right hand- a hyaena standing on top of me, and an elephant that had jusk knocked me down. 3 of the incidents were at night. But what really put me off carying an auto was the times when it worked as needed but the fact that at serveral times under difficult conditions I couldn't get mine to work. I had to swim out in a flooded river to pick up a child. There were crocodiles about in fair numbers and I left my CZ75 on. When I got back to shore I dried it out and tried to fire it. It was too gummed up.

[don heath]

Cont...

On two other occasions I had acted as 'escort' to some school kids on a canoe expedition down the zambezi river. By the end of a couple of days, I simply could not keep the auto's functioning with the sand and particularly the mica particle. After that I carried a revolver. I had another swim (this time aledgedly for fun) in a flooded river, and agin the silt clogged everything, but when I tried my issue M19 on singel action- it fired!

A handgun is not something you choose to go into a fight with. Occasionally it was necessary to use one when undercover, but otherwise, there are rifles and shotguns if you know there is trouble. So, the handgun must be carried at all times. It must work when it is full of sand/lint/ dust/snow and you have been too pre-ocupied to clean it. It must be fully usable by eather hand, and most importantly, it should point natuarlly...In only one out of six 'real life' situations have I been able to use the sights. Because of my job, and licensing issues here, I carry a S&W 329.  I still have a browning HP with crimson trace grips for 'undercover' work, but have sold my Glocks and STI competition pistols. I own (but don't have a carry permit for ) A S&W M60 (3") which is pretty close to my ideal 'every day' gun if there are no big game animals around - and it is what I would carry in town or on the road if I could get a permit.

[teamnelson]

Don, I always appreciate your posts. There are days I miss Africa, and days I thank God I'm not there ... it gets in the blood, literally.

I think this discussion can't be held in a vacuum. Most folks who carry a handgun baby it; its holstered usually in a closed toe thumb snap padded rig, and if you're hunting you're not running through the woods/swamp with it cocked in your hand. You don't want to grr those nice fancy hogue wood grips on it, or scratch the finish on that $700 dollar shooting piece. Its probably checked in the morning, and cleaned at night before its slid into its case and stored in a safe. Those who carry for duty or ccw may carry theirs holstered more, but again its very seldom presented for action, and seldom in adverse conditions. LEOs who draw and fire are rarer than the movies portray. I like IPSC, CAS and all the other tactical-practical shooting sports, but those are still highly controlled conditions in which damage to the gun is highly unlikely. And those firearms will be holstered and cleaned that night, in a safe house with heat, lights and a Wal-Mart 20 mins away. So the go-to-gun you have now may look great at the Prom, but maybe not so much when theirs mud over the fenders.

Take that piece and put it in your hip pocket and cover 25km through dense terrain with someone on your back. Cross a silty river or swim a lake, low crawl through some scrub. Do some I'mUp-HeSeesMe-I'mDown with it in condition 1 in your hand at full speed, with all you own strapped to your back, and your family moving with you ... across an urban environment. Oh, now try a kinetic engagement, especially the first one, where the guy with the semiauto is reconning by fire to find you and you're curled up in the fetal (or fecal depending) getting as small as you possibly can. You might accidently drop it in the confusion, and debate whether to risk exposure to pick it up again. Later that night when you're holed up back in your safe position you're so tired you forget to clean off the mud and check it over to make sure you didn't snap off something when you dropped it on the concrete earlier. And that's just a quick run over to what's left of the store to find antibiotics for your sick kid. There are people who live like this today in Chile, Haiti, and elsewhere ... those are the conditions of survival a good handgun has to be up for.

Whatever you pick, have the integrity to admit its flaws and recognize its limitations.

[SHOOTALL]

The trend to defend autos is mo ammo on hand , a very good point . I would suggest 2 revolvers would be a passable ansewer . In a survival situation it would also have an insurance value . Not only could you have more shots you could also have a spare to hide if the need came up. Where you ask maybe you need to go into a situation to trade for food and your weapon is taken away . If and when you leave you can pick up your spare . You can arm someone who sides with you also. On the street the fastest reload is a second gun in the off hand . Although i have not faced a survival time yet i carry while hunting , fishing and working construction . I have tried auto and revolver and have let them both go unmatained for weeks or longer . When doing ground work in high heat with lots of dust mixing with sweat a "gum" builds up not only on but also in the guns and it has caused a PPK )mine) a Glock (a friends ) to both size shut . The PPK fired but would not go back far enough to chamber a round . The Glock carried in a pocket did not have a round in the chamber and took a wood mallet to knock the slide back and cycle it to chamber a round . The Glock worked after the beating the slide open though. That was why I now carry a revolver in a pocket holster . It has been treated worst , been swiming ( not on purpose ) , and neglected but always worked sometimes only single action like the time i was working in a ditch and sand falling off the bank filled my pocket and gun holster. So now when fishing or working in ditches i put the revolver in a ziplock bag - a trick i saw a cop do when  he was working on the river undercover catching kids smoking pot .

[Couger]

I don't ever plan on getting to Africa (nor Australia nor New Zealand) - only places I'd ever want to travel to hunt or fish besides Canada ......  And Canada doesn't allow hand-weapons ......

Living in, working in, fleeing from the cities (during SHTF)  where too many people abound is where I'd want the extra fire power from a semi-auto pistol.  

I never anticipate I'd have to swim in any rivers that i didn't want to!  And I no longer live in florida where all we had (40yrs ago) were wussy alligators!  (besides crocs, glad we also don't have hippos!  unless its some phat chick in spandex on the beech!).  

If I'm in bear country I'll be packing a .44M or .45C, if not a .357M.  Altho the Glock M20 10mm is no slouch as a trail piece with 200grn pills.

My short response is, "I think a [prudent and conscienteous] fellow learns to use and make-do with the weapon he needs to - whether a rifle, shotgun, pistol or revolver."  

I also surely appreciate Don's anecdotal experiences in the African bush.  Sounds like a helluva testing ground for day-to-day life!  I love my Rocky (western) Mountains and they're plenty rugged (they truly are!) for the gaminals and feathers and fish I'll chase in my life.

But when picking a sidearm for use on critters that bite, it isn't lost me that an average African lioness is supposed to go 375-425lbs, and a lion >>  450-500lbs (or so I've heard).  That's indeed the "comparison" I use.

In Idaho I'm aware of two grizzlies that tangled with mankind.  A 750# bore grizz lost his contest with a logging truck one night and died on the spot, while a 500# she-grizz slowly but steadily and with deliberate determination "shred" a young hunter before he shot her in the mouth with a shotgun when she came back to finish him.

I'll say again I want a SA 9mm or .40S&W if facing gangstas or zombies, but a wheelgun [longgun!!] if facing brer-bear, (or brer-fox, cougar, or wuff!).  

A .357M is marginal when in grizzly country.  Definitely too small in northern Canada (if it was legal) or Alaska.

Of course there is that joke about how any wheelgun needs to have as smooth as possible any front sight when confronting a bear!  So it will hurt less when said bear shoves the said gun up the person's ........ keester!!!  

[john keyes]

no question about it. 

and what about reloading, very easy to size and reload rimmed cases

every handgun I own is a revolver

SP 101, Vaquero, 686, model 60

[SHOOTALL]

I have a 10mm and find it compares better to a 357 mag. than a 41 mag. It gets near not close as some wish to light loads in a 41 mag. The police loads that were not as strong as the hunting loads but most don't mention this when comparing . This is not a cut to the 10 mm it was meant to really fill the same role as the police load for the 41 mag. IE be the perfect police weapon . If you throw in bullet shape then the 357m might have the edge , at least the sats on one shot stops seems to point that out .

[Victor3]

The one scenario where an auto would have an undeniable advantage is if you were confronted with multiple aggressors. Not saying a well trained person with a revolver couldn't handle it, but it'd be easier with an auto!

 Even against only one opponent, a high-cap auto can provide a better chance of surviving a shootout simply due to the number of rounds available...

"In all shootings — including those against people, animals and in suicides and other situations — New York City officers achieved a 34 percent accuracy rate (182 out of 540), and a 43 percent accuracy rate when the target ranged from zero to six feet away. Nearly half the shots they fired last year were within that distance."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html?_r=1

 The fact that you're probably going to miss (well trained or not) more often that hit your opponent in a SD situation gives quantity a quality all its own.

[SHOOTALL]

It has also been proven that citizens that pratice ie compete have a much higher percent of hits . So it would appear that advocating mo bullets is to make up for less pratice . Just add CT grips . Its the first bullet that hits and stops the agression that counts , spraying and praying is wasteful and could be costly as the shooter is responsible for ALL his shots .

[don heath]

I remember a classic comment on the firepower debate in the 70's...A black cop from a small town in the southern US , pulled over a car - who's occupants had just pulled off a major bank robbery. One bad guy had a 12g and the other a  brace of .45 auto's. The cop- a model 10. Bad guy with sshotgun missed the first shot. Cop didn't. Second bad guy opened up a hail of lead forcing the officer to divein the ditch. He then fired a second shot...In the interview afterwards somebody asked him if he didn't feel undergunned with his little .38 revolver facing such overwhelming 'firepower'.. to which he replied...'Shootin straight with ma .38 beats him giv'n me jive with his .45!"

Firepower is pits on target- the reast is sound and fury signifying nothing

[teamnelson]

I consider IHMSA and ICORE survival training. IHMSA has given me the confidence to take longer shots with my DA revolver - I don't shoot 40s, but I hit a lot more on the 100 yd targets than I thought were possible with a .357. And 200 yds with a .44 mag. I shoot standing unsupported with iron sights specifically because that's probably how I'd have to shoot in a survival situation. ICORE/IPSC/PPC events with a DA revolver give me confidence in rapid controlled fire at shorter distances with the time pressure, using strong/weak side, and reloading.

Lots of folks buy the most competitive gear to score the highest - I take my go-to guns and use the time to improve my skills. My 40/40 will come when it all falls apart and I draw my .357 revolver and place each one where I want it with confidence.

[Victor3]

It has also been proven that citizens that pratice ie compete have a much higher percent of hits . So it would appear that advocating mo bullets is to make up for less pratice . Just add CT grips . Its the first bullet that hits and stops the agression that counts , spraying and praying is wasteful and could be costly as the shooter is responsible for ALL his shots .

 Same goes for cops, but even with the level of training they receive they still miss quite often, even at very close range.

 More bullets to make up for less practice? Is that why most police departments have gone to hi-cap autos? I think it's actually to give their officers a better chance of survival.

 The .357 125 grain SJHP was called the "magic bullet" by police because it had such a high percentage of one shot stops. Why did they go to autos if this round out of a revolver was so good at doing its job?

[Victor3]

Lots of folks buy the most competitive gear to score the highest - I take my go-to guns and use the time to improve my skills. My 40/40 will come when it all falls apart and I draw my .357 revolver and place each one where I want it with confidence.

 With your level of training, you'll do better than most. I've only had minimal formal training with a revolver, along with a lot of practice.

 The one time I faced a man for ~10 seconds with a real possibility of having to fire, I had a 38 snub in one hand and a flashlight in the other. I'm glad I didn't end up having to shoot because I was shaking badly. Took quite a while to calm down enough to sign my name legibly. I guess I'm no Clint Eastwood.

[teamnelson]

The primary reason LEOs and the military went to semis was not lethality ... that's why they've all rethought caliber. It's capacity to accomodate lower training standards which are necessary to expand the force. It takes time and money to train a shooter and fewer folks are coming in who grew up on a farm or in the woods where one good shot was a necessity. Marksmanship in general has suffered across all armed forces. But heck volume compensates.

Trouble is in a survival situation we won't have the volume option long. So I go back to the importance if training now, so your 6 is as lethal if not more than someone else's 15.

[SHOOTALL]

victor3 I agree with TM and add that police in the late 70's early 80's were allowed to use confiscated funds to buy equipment . The high cap. 9 was all the talk then . Add a few shoot outs where the bad guys had high cap and as they the rest was history .

[Victor3]

 I guess it's time to come out of the closet. This is the primary SD gun at home for both myself and the Wife...



 I have two other similar ones and now feel confident (after training and regular practice) that we both could do as well with them as anything. They're the only handguns I've taught my Wife to use; she's not interested in anything having to do with guns other than protection.

 I know that most non-police SD shootings are at very close range and are over after less than a total of five shots fired by both parties, so my previous comments were somewhat meant to play devil's (auto's) advocate.

 However, I also have a CZ 75 40 cal ready to go. More rounds readily available and being able to hit your target can still be a better choice in some circumstances IMO. One doesn't often need to empty a mag but when life might be on the line, could it hurt to have several rounds in reserve?

 The few police officers I've known well over the years who were also competitive shooters and/or sportsmen either don't believe or won't admit that the primary reason for going to hi-cap autos was to make up for less training. With liability being a big problems for police departments, I tend to believe them. Not a one said he would rather carry a revolver as a primary duty weapon even though some started out with them. They do for the most part have a negative view of the 9mm though.

[Badnews Bob]

I have both autos and wheel guns, I prefer to carry my wheel guns. I just like them better and probably because I do like them more, I shoot them more, Which is prolly why I shoot them better.

Besisdes all that I think .357 are the cats meow.

[don heath]

Ah yes, But a US policeman is often forced to use their handguns where European police would deploy a SMG and we would deploy an AK 47.

A handgun is intended to be used with one hand on those occasions when you cannot get both hands on something better. US police regs dictate that men go into action with third rate armament. If I was a policeman in the USA and forced to rely on a handgun as my PRIMARY offensive/defencive weapon, I would want a C-More holosight on top and a decent comp on the front like an IPSC racegun...and I would want 21 in the mag... Actually putting one of the little red dot sights (Leupold has a nice one that fits straight onto my S&W revolvers) would significantly improve hit/miss ratio's, and putting a single chamber comp on the front and a CT lazer grip or Surefire X 400 under the gun would just about cover all bases.

It is also the reason for the US emphasis on a two handed hold on a handgun- it is being used as a primary weapon...everybody else trains to use a handgun with one hand when they are injured or have one hand bussy and cannot use their primary weapon.

[Victor3]

 Every cop car in my city and the four contiguous cities are equipped with both a shotgun and AR 15. Shotguns ever since I can remember, rifles since the North Hollywood shootout in 1997.

 I don't know about other areas of the country though.

[SHOOTALL]

Guess doing a traffic stop would take on a whole new image with a race gun or M-4 . Sometimes ya just don't have the big guns with ya.

[don heath]

In Zim, the trafic cops have F.N. P90's. The man doing the stop is usually unarmed, but he has two other men with carbines covering him.  At a police check point there will be half a dozen with FAL's or AK 47's watching, but the man asking for your papers will be unarmed. At a usual European check, somebody will have a HK MP5 IN THEIR HANDS - most of the police have handguns but if there is a problem it is the man with the SMG who does the shooting, the cop walking up to the car runs for cover.

And in truth that is how it should be - the police have adequate back up, and it is never a lone cop making a stop, having to look 'non agressive' as he approaches the car...(as 99% of stops are just a ticket at most) etc. I would hate to be a cop!

[Victor3]

 Don,

 I'd volunteer to be the guy approaching the vehicle and let someone else handle the machine guns.

 After my 1st day training with an Uzi I figured I'd rather carry something smaller (even a revolver) around on a daily basis for close range work. Why lug something that heavy when the drill was mostly two rounds here, two rounds there and one in the head once in a while? That's no fun. If I can't play Rambo, gimme a handgun.

[SHOOTALL]

don heath here its a lone cop often in the country . Close to cities you see 2 in a car. Where i went to college there was one cop on duty from mid night to 6 am for 6 counties .