Author Topic: A Holocaust Survivor's View on Islam (Read 4112 times)

Dee · « **Reply #30 on:** March 03, 2010, 03:25:11 AM »

Quote from: BoomLover on March 02, 2010, 06:25:05 PM

Can't go back any further than 700 years or so, when the Muslims came into being...and they are working hard to catch up to the murders enacted by all the others. Their methods go back to the 700's, especially with the beheadings and burning alive. Catch your favorites on "Truthtube" to see how hard they are trying to make a solid name for themselves...brutal, sadistic, murderous savages...watch the future unfold. BoomLover

Actually BoomLover the roots of Islam can be traced back to Ishmael, the illegitimate son of Abraham, and his wife Sara's hand maid Hagar. God had promised Abraham and Sara a son, and Sara, at ninety years old though God needed help in fulfilling His prophecy. Ishmael was a pain in the butt from the very beginning and he and his mother Hagar were eventually driven from the camp because of it. God said of Ishmael's descendants, that they would be called Arabs, and would be at odds with everyone, and would live among everyone. This evolution of present day Islam actually started not 700 years ago but, more like 7,000 years ago. God further stated that Ishmael would have twelve princes in his lineage, and they would be fierce. Mohamed is a direct descendant of Ishmael.
By the way, Sara did later have that son, at age 100.

Dee · « **Reply #31 on:** March 03, 2010, 03:45:38 AM »

Where does it say that Abraham had a son with his sister TM7, and where does it say that Abraham walked the isle of matrimony with the servant Hagar? And outside of marriage, God although recognizing the child, does not recognize the union between the man and woman as Godly, as the conception was outside of marriage, and the Bible is specific that a marriage is between one man, and one woman, and anything contrary to that is condemned.

beerbelly · « **Reply #32 on:** March 03, 2010, 03:55:40 AM »

TM7 just so there is no mistake, While I think the world would be a better place if both the Israelis and Muslims were wiped off the face of the earth. If only one of the two were to go and I had to make the choice of which one. Your Muslim buddies would get the axe.
They are the one's presently trying to kill us!!!
beerbelly

teamnelson · « **Reply #33 on:** March 03, 2010, 05:49:56 AM »

I'll stack my degree in middle eastern linguistics, masters of divinity and years working with Semites up against wikipedia any day. Besides, check it for Semite and see what it says.

I only speak of what I know, not of what others tell me.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #34 on:** March 03, 2010, 05:55:41 AM »

Bible also said Ismauel and his decendents would not be able to get along with anyone else. Look at who the Muslims are fighting.

They blew up the Buddist statues in Afganistan.
Pakistan vs India
Muslims vs Serbians (Eastern Orthodox)
Turkey vs Greeks
Muslims vs Catholics in Bosnia
Ethopia vs Eritrea
Ugandian genocide against Christians
Sudan's genocide against Christians
Muslim rebels in southern islands of the Philipines
Just about every where in Africa where they come in contact with not just Christians, but tribal beliefs, they want to kill them.
And of course Israel vs Palistinians. Even the Egyptians don't want them and have closed their border with them at Gaza. Even Jordan didn't want the Palistinians.

powderman · « **Reply #35 on:** March 03, 2010, 06:05:06 AM »

BILLY. Your crystal ball is still working. POWDERMAN.

powderman · « **Reply #36 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:48:24 AM »

BEERBELLY. At least you would be making that decision right and back Gods people.
DIXIE DUDE. Uhhhh. Sounds ta me like you're saying that the muslims are basically trying to control the entire world, which of course they are. POWDERMAN.

Dee · « **Reply #37 on:** March 04, 2010, 05:46:19 AM »

TM7, I will be as brief as possible but, your analogy is OUT OF SCRIPTURAL CONTEXT.
Genesis Chapter 11 verse 31. And Terah took Abram (Abraham) his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai (Sarah) "HIS DAUGHTER IN LAW" , his son Abram's (Abraham's) wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

In this scripture Sarah is CLEARLY DESCRIBED, as Terah's DAUGHTER IN LAW, and there is NO MENTION of her being his daughter. Mosiac Law FORBID the marriage between brother and sister, and Abraham was not only the first Hebrew but, was a strick adherent to that Law.

Here is your out of contextual confusion as to them being brother and sister. When they were travelling into Egypt, they were both afraid that, because of Sarah's beauty, Pharaoh would have Abraham killed and take Sarah as his wife, so they made a pac to claim they were actually brother and sister to save Abraham's life, if it became necessary, AND IT DID BECOME NECESSARY.
This pack is described and the reasons for it in Genesis Chapter 11 verses 11 thru 13.
Their fears were realized when Pharaoh saw her beauty and made the move to make her is own wife Genesis Chapter 11 verses14 thru 16. With this done, God began to PLAGUE THE PHAROAH, for taking Abraham's wife, and Pharaoh FOUND OUT THE TRUTH, and confronted Abraham, and gave Sarah back to him, and sent them on their way. Genesis Chapter 11 verses 17 thru 20.

As far as Sarah giving Abraham her handmaid "Hagar" in marriage, she had no authority to do so under MOSAIC LAW, and the union was ILLEGITIMATE, from the get go, and the product of that union "ISHMAEL" was not deemed Abraham's RIGHTFUL FIRST BORN, and later God fulfilled his promise, and Sarah gave birth to Issac the rightful heir.

Ishmael was blessed for the simple reason that he was Abraham's son, but could not inherit the kingdom as God had promised his first born would.

Abraham was not Sarah's sister, and Ishmael WAS born out of wedlock. You'll have to take up your argument with God, and you will surly lose if you do.

teamnelson · « **Reply #38 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:09:24 AM »

This isn't arcane interpretation of fuzzy scripture - its black and white:

Quote

Genesis 17: 15 And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [4] shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give [5] you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. [6] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.”

God said the covenant was with Isaac. When Moses asked about Ishmael, God said, "No." This covenant was an everlasting one, and was for Isaac's offspring as well, which is Israel. That he blessed Ishmael and made his a great nation is not an indicator that he supplanted Isaac's selection by God to be in covenant.

Later the covenant is continued through Jacob, the 2nd son, and not Esau - Jacob is renamed Israel, and his sons become the father of the tribes. So the lineage of Israel is always recited, even later by Paul, as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

powderman · « **Reply #39 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:39:17 AM »

TEAM NELSON. Don't go confusing foiks with facts. Well said and true. the covenant was with Isaac, not ishmael. POWDERMAN.

Dee · « **Reply #40 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:43:49 PM »

quote from TeamNelson: God said the covenant was with Isaac.

Actually TN, he in Genesis Chapter 17 verses 1 thru 7 says:Verse 1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Verse 2. And I WILL MAKE MY COVENANT BEWTEEN ME AND THEE, AND WILL MULTIPLY THEE EXCEEDINGLY. Verse 3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying. Verse 4. AS FOR ME, BEHOLD, MY COVENANT IS WITH THEE, AND THOU SHALT BE A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS. Verse 5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE THEE. Verse 6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Verse 7. AND I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT BETWEEN ME AND THEE AND THY SEED AFTER THEE IN THEIR GENERATIONS FOR AN EVERLASTING CONENATNT. TO BE A GODUNTO THEE, AND TO THY SEED AFTER THEE.

My statement that God made his covenant with Abraham was dead on, and your reference to him making it with Isaac, is in reference to his rejection of Ishmael, as the first born, as Ishmael was not out of the lineage of the marriage of Abraham and Sarah, and that Isaac was the HEIR TO the covenant God made with ABRAHAM as was ALL OF ABRAHAMS FUTURE SEED. The covenant was made with Abraham, BEFORE Isaac was born.

teamnelson · « **Reply #41 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:23:01 PM »

Quote from: Dee on March 04, 2010, 01:43:49 PM

quote from TeamNelson: God said the covenant was with Isaac.

Actually TN, he in Genesis Chapter 17 verses 1 thru 7 says:Verse 1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Verse 2. And I WILL MAKE MY COVENANT BEWTEEN ME AND THEE, AND WILL MULTIPLY THEE EXCEEDINGLY. Verse 3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying. Verse 4. AS FOR ME, BEHOLD, MY COVENANT IS WITH THEE, AND THOU SHALT BE A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS. Verse 5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE THEE. Verse 6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Verse 7. AND I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT BETWEEN ME AND THEE AND THY SEED AFTER THEE IN THEIR GENERATIONS FOR AN EVERLASTING CONENATNT. TO BE A GODUNTO THEE, AND TO THY SEED AFTER THEE.

My statement that God made his covenant with Abraham was dead on, and your reference to him making it with Isaac, is in reference to his rejection of Ishmael, as the first born, as Ishmael was not out of the lineage of the marriage of Abraham and Sarah, and that Isaac was the HEIR TO the covenant God made with ABRAHAM as was ALL OF ABRAHAMS FUTURE SEED. The covenant was made with Abraham, BEFORE Isaac was born.

Dee, nothing I said disagreed with you. Perhaps you skimmed over this part "I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him." This is in reference to Isaac. Yes, he made a covenant with Abraham, then he "established" a covenant with Isaac; then he established it with the next heir, Jacob. Same covenant, but specifically established with each heir in the line.
Your point, I thought, was that it was not established with Ishmael, which is clear. Muslims agree with your post; they disagree with mine.

TM7, In the lineage of semitic languages, aramaic did not exist at the time of Abraham, nor at the time of Moses who later authored the books in which this narrative is contained so this was not written in aramaic. Also, the scholastic tradition of the NIV is the one that translates the "No" to a "Yes, but ... sarah will have a son, you'll call him Isaac, and I'll establish my covenant with him." God is specifically stating that a covenant is to be had with Isaac, as opposed to the eldest, Ishmael. All translations in that form share the scholastic influence.

I actually have studied aramaic as my Iraqi dialect professor was raised in the syriac tradition which still uses aramaic in worship. The references you're citing are on the fringe of textual criticism. I'm actually trained to engage in apologetics with seminary trained Imams; you're using weak sauce bro.

But its a red herring. That Israel and Ishmael fight today is not reflective of a divine mandate.

Dee · « **Reply #42 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:29:04 PM »

Much is being read into this, that is not actually there. I have posted the scripture, and there is nothing to debate. It says what it says, reject or accept. I'm done

teamnelson · « **Reply #43 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:40:06 PM »

Well I could post in greek and hebrew, would that be helpful to you? I post in english, because that is spoken here. And I only post translations, not transliterations or paraphrases. But that wouldn't matter to you, now would it. You've a hermeneutic you don't appear to admit. When you use zionized to describe a version you disagree with, you reveal that you are not able to be objective in the discussion.

The debate over inheritance is rooted in the verses Dee and I posted, him specifically to Abraham who is the shared father, and mine specifically to when God stated that Isaac was next in line, not Ishmael. Islam comes along 2700 years after the covenant, by the most conservative account, and seeks to recolor history to conform to their hermeneutic, and they have been successful in convincing some "christians" that they the promised ones. If you truly study it, which took me several years, you'll see that they worked backwards, not forwards from the original text. Then questioned each troubling passage to their preconceived notion. Its blatant in their own documents. If anyone is quilty of historical correction its Islam, not Judaism.

wreckhog · « **Reply #44 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:01:14 PM »

Germans killed more Americans than anyone else in the 20th century. And not just Nazis. Plenty of them was just regular old germans. I think that Holocaust Survivor is focusing on a couple of trees and missing the forest.

Dee · « **Reply #45 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:15:03 PM »

As far as the 20th, and 21st centuries just about any two countries combined, INCLUDING GERMANY, would be hard pressed to match America's kill numbers and body count, and I'm speaking only of the 51,000,000 and counting, babies butchered by "Federally funded Planned Parenthood", which more appropriately should be named "Planned Genocide".

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #46 on:** March 04, 2010, 05:50:21 PM »

Amen Dee. Communist Russia killed 20 million, Communist China killed 70 million. Nazi Germany killed about 30 milliion total, mostly Jews, Poles, Russians, and Slavic peoples from what I can remember. Communist China has killed millions through abortion with their one child policy. And the beat goes on.

teamnelson · « **Reply #47 on:** March 05, 2010, 01:39:12 PM »

TM7,

much of what you attribute to me is not based on what I post, but what I didn't post so by definition you are making assumptions. I realize Christianity the religion has been a disappointment to you. If you're seeking validation, I can't give that to you.

But if you are seeking truth, then recognize that it is possible some of your assumptions are wrong. Not all seminary trained evangelical pastors hate the Muslim people and blindly support Zionism and the neocon nwo. Nor are those who choose to serve as chaplains political officers as you've accused in the past. Until such time as you are able to abandon those assumptions, then I can provide no aid and comfort to you in your quest. Be well my friend!

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #48 on:** March 06, 2010, 03:43:28 AM »

I would love to be more involved in this discussion but danged if I can come up with any big words you guys haven't already used.

Dee · « **Reply #49 on:** March 06, 2010, 05:28:54 AM »

I believe I have pretty much stated my case, and backed my belief's with scripture. One can dismantle the scripture in a effort to make ones point, or one can take it for what it says. A walk with God, is an individual walk, and one can reflect on past deeds of the Christian faith, all one wants but, it will change nothing about one's own walk. I am not guilty of what anyone has done in the past, or the present, but more convicted about my own actions. And I have been forgiven, even for those.

As for the Muslim faith, I am convinced to their heathenist ways, and should they continue, their fate was sealed at birth without the Cross. As for their present pre-occupation with killing Christians and Jews, I will defend both myself, my family, and my friends VIGOROUSLY against such behavior, and will be reluctant to trust my back to them. For no other reason than their doctrine outlined in their Koran. With some dogs it is best to avoid the gate, and simply feed thru the fence.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #50 on:** March 06, 2010, 06:24:51 AM »

This has certainly turned into quite a thread. Thanks to all who posted with a greater depth of knowledge of scripture than I have. There have also been a few posts I didn't see in the same light, but that's life and I'd fight for your right to disagree with me.

The perspective laid out in the Original post said well what I have been thinking for a while. It really doesn't matter if most Muslims think this way or not. The peacefull ones are not who I have to worry about, and it doesn't really matter which view of the Koran is correct. Put another way: if a hundred Muslims over here say "we mean you no harm" and prove it by minding their own business; and a dozen over there say "we DO mean you harm" and prove it with guns and bombs; which side do you have to listen to? Does majority voice outweigh the guy with the AK? No.

steve y · « **Reply #51 on:** March 06, 2010, 09:33:27 AM »

Even the peaceful ones give tacit approval of all the violence perpetrated on the world by not saying anything. They do not disavow their brothers in allah. Even the ones who are not terrorists seem to get their panties in a bunch everytime someone says something, anything that is even remotely denigrating to islam. There is no way to deal with someone who acts that way. We are always called racist for anything we do. All we have to do is believe in God, cling to our guns and believe in the Constitution and we are branded racists. The people who hurl rants of racism toward us are the ones who are the racists. Anyone who disagrees with our beliefs seem unable to co-exsist with us in peace. They want to hound us out of any place at the table of politics at best or want us dead at worst. Scripture says we will be persecuted for believing in Him. That's ok heaven will be worth it. Steve

Dee · « **Reply #52 on:** March 06, 2010, 09:55:38 AM »

That the Christian is pushed to the back of the bus, is certainly true, but whom is to blame here? Why does not Christian not defend his faith, as the Muslim and the Hindu, and even the Atheist? God says we are to WALK BOLDLY in the Word, and defend it. When the Muslim files a lawsuit, where are the Christians leaders?

powderman · « **Reply #53 on:** March 06, 2010, 10:19:33 AM »

The truth should be preached from every Christian pulpit in the world. They should tell the world what islam really is and quit telling folks only what they want to hear. Islam is a cancer that is quickly destroying the world. The silence of the so called good ones is deafening. I saw a news report of these GOOD ones in afghanistan bringing food to their Godless brothers after they had planted mines and ambushed an American patrol. There were no innocents there. POWDERMAN.

steve y · « **Reply #54 on:** March 06, 2010, 01:05:22 PM »

That is interesting. Where did he say those words? Was it a press conference, paper, internet, interview or something else? When I see words like "I don't have a problem with the American people just the system" our system of government is the American people. Even though we have politicians that don't have our best interest at heart and are self serving. Even though I can not stand anyone like obama, pelosi, reid, clinton etc. If they were attacked by islamic whomevers they didn't attack our system they attacked us. We the people are the government ultimately. I know the reality and the perception but that is how our founders set it up. I guess you can liken it to a family, we fight amongst ourselves but when one of us is attacked by someone from the outside we band together to defeat them. Now having said all that I believe we would not have near the trouble that we do if we would just stay out of the affairs of others. Bring all the troops home and defend our borders. Steve

nomosendero · « **Reply #55 on:** March 06, 2010, 02:15:23 PM »

"just not found in mainstream media in this country....wonder why?" Because he (Addallah) made it up would be one good reason.

Or instead of saying "As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie", maybe he actually ment ( As a Muslim, I try not to lie to another Muslim)

As allways, the Muzzies had nothing to do with it.

The nice thing about this country is that people can believe that kind of stuff or the tooth fairy without fear of losing their head, but in the land of the Muzzie, things are a little different & yes that is Bush's fault too.

Nice exchange I guess, glad we are allowed to read it & express other views.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 06, 2010, 02:33:37 PM »

Quote from: nomosendero on March 06, 2010, 02:15:23 PM

"just not found in mainstream media in this country....wonder why?" Because he made it up would be one good reason.

As allways, the Muzzies had nothing to do with it.

The nice thing about this country is that people can believe that kind of stuff or the tooth fairy without fear of losing their head, but in the land of the Muzzie, things are a little different & yes that is Bush's fault too. Nice exchange I guess, glad we are allowed to read it.

Well Nomo, if it aint W's fault its "the Jews did it". His comedy routine will be bigger than "Git er Done".

teamnelson · « **Reply #57 on:** March 06, 2010, 03:33:46 PM »

What helps the otherwise peaceful Muslim, and that is the vast majority as they are by in large the poorest folk on the planet and have no means, become symapthetic to the cause of their violent bretheren, who seem to come from more affluent Muslim circles, are the policies of the American government that directly affect them. more often than not these are the same policies most folks on here question and may disagree with. Clearly were gonna disagree, but for whatever reason I have found most Muslims in all of the countries I've lived and here make a clear distinction between us and our governement. That is the way their world works, so you have to take it into consideration. Like ordering tea in the north ... ice and sugar are extra, shouting ain't gonna change it. I only made that mistake once and now I ask specifically. If you can follow that logic, you can follow theirs.

Google Osama Bin Ladens speeches, he doesn't attack the US people, just our leadership and our troops. In his world, the people have no voice so he assumes we do not either. I'd see him dead if I could, but I know his enemy isn't me personally, it's the US government. That is an important distinction to keep in mind here. They don't want us dead, they want us liberated for Islam. Our mistake is trying to liberate them for democracy, and it's like a wristwatch on a pig.

steve y · « **Reply #58 on:** March 06, 2010, 03:55:23 PM »

If it is our mistake to liberate them for democracy then it surely is theirs to liberate us for islam. I have no desire to be one. If he doesn't attack the US people but our political leadership then flying planes into the WTC and killing all of those innocent people must not have been his aim. Maybe the boys he sent over here to attack our leadership just made a little mistake. It could happen to anyone. I've mistaken NYC many times for DC.

I know the WTC is where most of the financial moving and shaking went on here. In order for your premise to work they screwed up by crashing into those towers. Why didn't they just fly all 4 of the planes into DC to cut the head off of our government? We can speculate till the cows come home but we will never know for sure what all happened and what is happening. Unless we have a "deep throat" of our own into all of these shadowy worlds then we never will know the truth. Steve

powderman · « **Reply #59 on:** March 06, 2010, 04:59:28 PM »

STEVE Y. The Godless ones hit the twin towers because they saw them as symbols of democracy and Christianity. It wasn't just our govt they wanted to hurt, it was us too. They hit the pentagon because it was the head of Americas military. They judged Americans by bill klinton, they thought we were cowards and did not expect us to go to war, they were wrong. POWDERMAN.