Hold?

[nomad]

OK -- how about a discussion of 'hold' parameters?
On a good day, I hold about an animal and a half and can frequently make the dot stop on a spot for a short -- very short! -- time.  Problem is that I seldom manage to make the trigger break during these lulls. (There are, of course, days when my 'hold' is about a bank and a half and NOTHING -- not even the TARGET -- ever slows down let alone stops moving!) A former national champion with whom I occassionally shoot tells me he can 'make' the rifle stop for a noticeable period. When he's 'on' that's pretty easy to believe!
I spotted a while ago for Cathy Winstead and she told me that she seldom leaves the animal... (Good thing she's such a terrific lady -- she'd be awful easy to dislike!)  
How would you describe your hold?
Are you able to stop the rifle completely for a measurable moment?
Do you see any difference in scores when you change holds? (I've had one very good shooter tell me that he often achieves better breaks and higher scores with a hold that isn't as steady as others but seems to allow him to control the movement more predictably...)
What kind of off-arm (i.e. left hand for a right hand shooter) grip and/or arm tension do you find most beneficial? David Tubb has said that he maintains definite tension throughout his stance but that's not info that's easy for anyone else to interpolate -- serious tension to some may be a very light grasp to others. I'm not sure that a very relaxed stance is the best choice for our outdoor work unless you normally shoot in very flat conditions...comments? (Here in Texas we often toss a bowling ball out on the range. If it doesn't blow away we figure that the winds are pretty tame!)  

[Arizona Jake]

Nomad:

I started shooting silhouettes about 20 years ago. I knew nothing about building a steady shooting position, building a good technique or mental management. Up to 2 years ago, I would wobble all over the place, trying to get the trigger to go off while the crosshairs were crossing the animal.

I moved to Kalifornia 2 years ago and started learning the PROPER fundamentals from Tony Tello, who is a very good friend and a terrific coach. Unfortunately, I had to move out of Kalifornia to Wisconsin, but I stil keep in touch with Tony. I read and experiment, and try to learn from observing others. I had the good fortune of being roomates with Tony and Agustin Sanchez last summer at Ridgway. I learned from these two guys that I have two vices that I have to get rid of, if I want to shoot well: Foster's "Oil Cans" and cigars. Well, maybe the Foster's.

As I continue practicing, I have noted that I can hold maybe about 1-1/2 animals, and occasionally, I can hold on a spot and actually get the shot to go. I am working to get the trigger moving as the crosshairs move into the animal, so the shot can go off as I get close to the center of the target. It will still require a lot of experimenting and a lot of shooting, but nothing comes free. I am also working on minimizing my "head space" :wink:  problems to handle distractions. This is like an addiction I just can't shake. I'm sure you have similar thoughts...

[lucho]

I have decided that my hold never stops.  I now accept that fact and live with it.  I try to make my hold smaller and slower, but I don't try to make it stop.  I try to improve my stance, and my body possition.  Lately I have been concentrating on relaxing my neck and shoulders.  This seems to help.

I have tried to research off hand shooting and have found these articles very helpfull.  They are by JP Connor, a well know coach.

http://www.pilkguns.com/coach/jpindx.htm

"Back to the Basiscs"  speaks of holds.

I have also found that to thing have helped a lot.

1) You must be psychologically ready to take the shot BEFORE you are on target.  By this I mean, I am relaxed, the trigger slake is taken up, and completely ready in your mind to break the shot.

2) Trust your first hold.  It is the best.  Take the shot.  This is why 1) is so important.  If you aren't ready before you are on target you will miss you best hold while you are getting ready.

3)  Take the shot that is your best hold, not the perfect hold.  We can't get a perfect hold.  If you wait for it and it doesn't come you have missed your best hold.

hope this helped

Lucho

[drags]

Arizona Jake
Could you share some of the other tips you got from Tony Tello? You stated that you are trying to get the trigger moving as you are coming to the center of the animal, would you call this the approach method? What method does Mr. Tello and Mr. Sanchaz use? Any info you could give us would be helpful.
Thanks
Joe

[Arizona Jake]

Drags:

What Tony suggested I try is that, as I start getting the cross hairs into the target, I start squeezing so the shot goes off when the crosshairs are centered. That's what I'm working on. As far as Agustin goes, this amazing kid has no standard approach. If he does not feel he is placing the shot where he wants it to go while using a certain technique, he will swich untill he finds a technique that will work for him.  

At the nationals, Agustin missed one chicken during the second day of competition. He called the shot one-half inch off the neck, because he was just a little late on the trigger....

The most important tips Tony passed on to me are very common and basic, but none the less, stuff that typically goes in one ear and out the other: DISCIPLINE: Concentrate on the shot you are about to make, forget about past shots - hit or miss. Put the rifle down and start over if you can't get the trigger to fire, instead of forcing the shot.

 :wink:

[Arizona Jake]

Thank you for the articles by J. P. Connor, Lucho.

[Heikki in FIN]

I agree that tip.

We don't shoot 40 shot matches.
We shoot 40 times one shot matches :grin:

Heikki

[drags]

Thanks Jake this will be very helpful. This is a good post hopefully some other shooters will give us some techniques that they use.
Joe

[Kirby]

I have learned in the couple of season that I have shot that shooting is about 2 things: A farily steady hold, and good, excellent trigger control.  I am a AAA/Master (right there on the verdge) pistol shooter and a AAA rifle shooter.  I love shooting silhouette and love to shoot even more so off a bench.  I have noticed that I too am about 1.5 holder.  I have a margin in which my "best hold" is there.  More times than not I can't make squeeze it off, but I don't force it.  If you force a fire you will miss it 98% of the time.  My biggest problem is that if I hold the rifle a little too long, like 2-3 seconds.  I believe in a firm to the shoulder, mid to light cheek pressure, (I like to just rest my head), firm elbow in the side, mid pressure with the support arm, firm trigger hand and arm.  If I hold too long I grip the rifle harder with the support arm, and I gradually move the rifle out from my shoulder, or relax.  When the shot breaks I will push the rifle to high just going over his back or twist with the body and just right of the critter.  The biggest thing I have found to help me was to hit the weights.  That has helped me more than anything.  The other is to practice on a chest high level target.  Most ranges have the targets setting on a waiste level or lower rail, by practicing chest high it helps to build up strength and endurance.  Holding lower is much easier now.  The other thing is shoot spots.  I don't hold well enough to yet pick out a spot on the animal.  I like to make good hits just like anyone else but as long as it goes ping and off the rail I will be smiling.  I shoot 1in. dots at 50, 1.25 at pigs, 1.5 at rams and turkeys.  I recently bought swinger targets that came with 2in. dots on them.  If you can consistently hit that two inch dot you will hit the pigs-rams.  I will miss my dots more so than hit but it does allow me to see which direction I miss and what my overall groups is.  In short it can be very depressing chasing the dots, but it really does help.  The last thing, is the fact that I changed my silhouette paper targets to the the paper targets with a one inch black dot in them.  I find that I really do focus much harder if a visible dot is there.  Really helps on the paper ram and turk.  Good luck, good shooting, Kirby

[ajj]

Thanks to Drags for steering me to this neat site. This is a great topic with some things that will help me. I'll share some things I've read and heard and some things I'm trying.
At Nygord's site, www.nygord.com, there are some good tips. Also check out Practice with Airgun and Troy Lawton's Holding Drill articles on www.zediker.com. In doing a very basic holding drill practice you start noticing what your average hold really looks like. For me, there is usually a brief settling as I come on target, an almost immediate bouncing around, and then a "best hold" period of smaller wobble lasting a couple or three seconds before the hold starts to deteriorate for good. When we talk about "holding" we should remember we are talking about what we can do in this brief "best" period between getting settled and starting to run out of breath. The drill where you just hold and observe, without trying to break a shot, will teach you a lot. It's boring compared to shooting, but five minutes a day is plenty and it's a great way to warm up before shooting or dry firing. Helps you see what your hold is doing ON THAT DAY.
Nygord has some good things to say about learning to break the shot in the EARLY part of your BEST hold. Sure is hard to do. On a low-wobble day I can "hold" inside even the small animals, but only for between two and three seconds. Breaking the shot is another matter. For me, I think the problem is that I'm trying so hard to hit the target. We've got to shoot for the sake of executing the shot properly and let the score take care of itself. ("Zen in the Art of Archery.") A good tip from the great Jack Writer if you're having trouble getting the trigger to break: Think follow through BEFORE you start trying to break the shot. ("No matter what else happens, I'm going to have good follow through on this shot.")
I've got almost all the books. A coach named Chet Skinner has written (in a very strange style) a book opining that one can train himself to completly STOP the rifle for 3/4 second. A very experienced shooter has told me that all the greats are able to break the shot as the dot settles. I have had that experience enough to know what it feels like but I sure can't repeat it at will.