Author Topic: READING INTO POSTS, WHAT ISN'T THERE! (Read 2894 times)

Dee · « **on:** March 07, 2010, 01:55:37 PM »

I see now that we have new moderators here on the pot bellied stove, as we are not civilized enough it seems. While I doubt this will change anything here, it will however, give everyone three more things to argue about, and three more people to argue with, and complain to GB about.
I myself, see the biggest problem with OPEN DISCUSSION on a mode of communication such as this, is ASSUMPTION! We are not face to face, to interject immediately if a person is saying one thing, and meaning another. The results is, the reader ASSUMES that is what is happening.
What got me to thinking about this AGAIN, is a couple of emails I got yesterday, and today concerning my posts, and the generated heat they produced from a FEW, concerning Farm Subsidies.
The writer of these two emails ASSUMED, I was both ANGRY AND BITTER, and even went so far as to mention "getting even" with those whom were younger and ridding the system while I personally HAD TO WORK at my age. And his ASSUMPTIONS are what inspired this thread.
I find all three of these ASSUMPTIONS, both amusing, and yet somewhat frustrating, as I was guilty of none of these. I am neither angry, bitter, or vindictive about farmers whom live like royalty off government mandated "tax gifts". Somewhat indignant yes, but I have long since given up on our government to stop such nonsense, and have also long since realized that ANGRY AMERICANS are angry SELECTIVELY.
I, in my statements of my OPINIONS of the situation actually "gave a site on the Internet" where one could see for themselves these "farm tax payer piggy bank payouts" right down to the penny.
But this is where it drifts into fantasy. Two, or three, or four readers took great exception to the TRUTH this site provided, and took out their wrath on me, calling names, and accusing me of all sorts of affiliations with unions, and such, which I thought was entertaining, while one clown whom alternately wants to be my buddy, while also alternately tries to hurt me, even brought up my "personal failures in finance" which he totally misconstrued thru his lack of gray matter on a months ago discussion of the housing market. All to defame me because of my OPINIONS on the topic.
My point to all of this is: In this time of political correctness, it has become customary to READ INTO someones' posts what you want them to say, regardless that it is not, what they said at all. Gone, I suppose is the time, and respect, that what ever a man says is what he means. Now one must READ INTO HIS STATEMENTS, emotions that were actually not there, so that you can answer him the way you want to answer him. Given all this ADDING TO, it has become more and more a thought on my part, that much like the American voter I have given up on, I am considering giving up on these type of forums.
Now before some of you decided to ASSUME, I am angry, bitter, or vindictive, I am none of these. It's just that I give a damn, less and less, about the goings on of this world.
So with all that said: dukkiller! You and I have already discussed my attitudes toward IDEALISM and REALISM, and human behavior OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM, I wish you and your two fellow sacrifices (er.. volunteers), a lot of luck, and let me know which of us was right. Although I think I already know.

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:04:09 PM »

That's the one thing I notice about the internet. There is no face to face discussion so sometimes it is hard to tell how a person meant something without the facial expressions or tonal inflextions of a face to face discussion.

It is I think human nature to guess intent when you are missing all of the clues we are used to having and a lot of times it's not the correct guess.

Dee · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:14:51 PM »

Quote from: GRIMJIM on March 07, 2010, 02:04:09 PM

That's the one thing I notice about the internet. There is no face to face discussion so sometimes it is hard to tell how a person meant something without the facial expressions or tonal inflextions of a face to face discussion.

It is I think human nature to guess intent when you are missing all of the clues we are used to having and a lot of times it's not the correct guess.

My point exactly GRIM

dukkillr · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:15:10 PM »

I don't disagree with what you are saying. Some people feel a desperate need to dichotomize. They aren't smart enough to see gray and they can't handle subtleties. You are either Rush Limbaugh's blood brother or you are, as Charlie said, "A long haired hippy type pinko fag." I think that simplistic black and white world view causes people to assume things because they need you to fit into one of two categories. Sad, but true.

I have been interested in the pre-emptive backlash against moderation, even if it only keeps the name calling down... But as I read your post some may think I was the source of these emails you speak of (since I am named at the end). I was not. Just wanted that to be clear.

I started this idea because too many of the posts on the Pot-Bellied section had become, in my opinion, either name calling, or baiting to lead into name calling (there are even people trying to bait me in the thread where I said this). I felt like it was more childish than helpful and I suggested as much to GB. He could have said that he liked it that way, and I said as much in my PM. My argument was that ultimately people were leaving that section because of the posting policies of a relative few. I still believe that. I had no intention of moderating this section. I liked my quiet little section of GBO... But since I started the discussion and GB prompted me by PM, I signed on to try and help. Perhaps it won't work. If it doesn't I'll still try to kill my 4 toms this spring, and go to work on Monday. In other words, life will go on, mostly unchanged.

Dee · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:24:00 PM »

Ahhhh dukkiller, you are already gun shy, and guilty of that awful word, and act of ASSUMPTION. You have already fallen victim of the fear that someone will "read into my posts", that YOU are the culprit, when my point was only that you had voluntarily accepted the saddle, without so much as pitching a little, when I wished you luck with your most frustrating task.
I will exit the forum, and let you have your experiment, unfettered by me.

burntmuch · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:25:48 PM »

Im gonna get flamed for this but here goes.

Dee you do come across as an angry old man. Im sorry but its true. Ive read alot of your post. Alot of them are very informative. but alot of them seem to be there just to upset people. I read the thread on the farmers getting money. You were a police office for years & years, so I can assume youve seen the average welfare recipient, in the government housing living like animals all on our dime. & you compare them to farmers. Come on thats insane. Then when you talk about your 30-30 usually you take a poke at anyone who uses a little more gun, or shoots an animal over 100 yards. Now I do believe some people do misunderstand a statement or 2 on these forums . Its understandible, not being face to face. Now to politics. On the thread about the signs poping up. How is that not a good thing. you took that as an invite to take a poke. its not good enough. Bitter old man. Thats what I see. This post is an invitation to the world from you to argue. Thats the sign of a bitter old man. Do every one a favor & get some antidepressants. Now Dee this is coming from a man who honestly believes YOUR generation is the greatest generation this country has seen. This man also believes my generation ;Im 41 years old; is the not so greatest generation this country has ever seen. But we,re getting better. We are waking up so to speak. Just keep in mind when you are on a forum like this you are with like minded folks. That may see things just a little bit different than you. Guys thats the most Ive typed in years, So I apoligize if its a bit discombobulated. Jay

dukkillr · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:26:01 PM »

Quote from: Dee on March 07, 2010, 02:24:00 PM

Ahhhh dukkiller, you are already gun shy, and guilty of that awful word, and act of ASSUMPTION. You have already fallen victim of the fear that someone will "read into my posts", that YOU are the culprit, when my point was only that you had voluntarily accepted the saddle, without so much as pitching a little, when I wished you luck with your most frustrating task.
I will exit the forum, and let you have your experiment, unfettered by me.

Your input is always welcome by me.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:28:54 PM »

Quote from: GRIMJIM on March 07, 2010, 02:04:09 PM

That's the one thing I notice about the internet. There is no face to face discussion so sometimes it is hard to tell how a person meant something without the facial expressions or tonal inflextions of a face to face discussion.

It is I think human nature to guess intent when you are missing all of the clues we are used to having and a lot of times it's not the correct guess.

+1

I also think that there are some that say things they wouldn't if they were face to face. They use the anonymity of the Internet to say what they would be afraid to say in person.

As far as name calling goes, I see it from some folk that complain about name calling. They have a holier than thou attitude and call names when they dont like a persons point of view.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:39:36 PM »

Quote from: burntmuch on March 07, 2010, 02:25:48 PM

Im gonna get flamed for this but here goes.

Dee you do come across as an angry old man. Im sorry but its true. Ive read alot of your post. Alot of them are very informative. but alot of them seem to be there just to upset people. I read the thread on the farmers getting money. You were a police office for years & years, so I can assume youve seen the average welfare recipient, in the government housing living like animals all on our dime. & you compare them to farmers. Come on thats insane. Then when you talk about your 30-30 usually you take a poke at anyone who uses a little more gun, or shoots an animal over 100 yards. Now I do believe some people do misunderstand a statement or 2 on these forums . Its understandible, not being face to face. Now to politics. On the thread about the signs poping up. How is that not a good thing. you took that as an invite to take a poke. its not good enough. Bitter old man. Thats what I see. This post is an invitation to the world from you to argue. Thats the sign of a bitter old man. Do every one a favor & get some antidepressants. Now Dee this is coming from a man who honestly believes YOUR generation is the greatest generation this country has seen. This man also believes my generation ;Im 41 years old; is the not so greatest generation this country has ever seen. But we,re getting better. We are waking up so to speak. Just keep in mind when you are on a forum like this you are with like minded folks. That may see things just a little bit different than you. Guys thats the most Ive typed in years, So I apoligize if its a bit discombobulated. Jay

I guess I have also ASSUMED Dan was an angry old man. That being said, Dan as much as I have argued with you and disagreed with you. I truly believe we have alot more in common and very little in differences. I hope to see you around this forum for a long time to come. There are sa select few who post here I truly don't like but you are not one of them.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:51:05 PM »

BTW Dee, I see you have blocked my PM's. Its ok, I tried to send you one about this thread and that I agreed with you. But thats ok too, good luck in the future!

steve y · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:54:52 PM »

It is unfortunate that some people on these types of venues don't conduct themselves as though they are face to face. If we did we may not have alot of the situations we are having now. I don't participate alot here just because of time constraints but I have noticed a very wide range of opinions. Opinions from very informed to outta left field. We all have different perceptions based on the experiences in our lives. I know this will sound like a fantasy

but if we could just be honest and type to each other as if we were face to face maybe we could avoid these kinds of situations. Hopefully we can all spot a bomb thrower or pot stirrer if you will and take it for what it's worth. I guess we need to develope a thicker skin if we're going to participate here. Maybe a more liberal (I know bad word)

use of the emoticons would aleviate some misunderstandings.

$:-\$

Steve

teamnelson · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:58:48 PM »

There was a time in our history when gentlemen could exchange ideas on difficult subjects, even heatedly so, then slap the table and walk off friends. Nothing saying we can't do that here.

ShadowMover · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2010, 03:47:59 PM »

This topic reminded me of an editorial by Fred Reed: " A Brief Textbook of American Democracy"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed25.html

He starts out with item (1):
Free speech does not exist in America. We all know what we can’t say and about whom we can’t say it.

He goes on to make further observations, many or most of which I agree with.

teamnelson · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2010, 05:07:19 PM »

SM, good article. I have to read the authors book now.

Part of the lack of free speech is were really not interested in truth any more. Truth used to be a pursuit in and of itself. Heck, if I want to know the twist rate on an octagonal barrel from TC, I post here and KeithL or Ladobe tell me the truth. I don't quibble, call them names, rock back on my haunches ... I take that truth and act accordingly.

As much as we hate to admit it, everything else ... politics, faith, sports, etc. ... is really just that black and white too. Obama either is or isn't a socialist; farmers either do or do not receive subsidies. But folks can't keep it to a truth telling, they throw out logical red herrings, ad hominems, or diffuse, derail, dissemble and deny. Because they don't want truth, they want validation, and if you don't give them that you're everything but a child of God. Happily I do pretty good keeping my sense of self worth insulated from posts here. I don't have to wake up with any of you, and none of you will be on the throne at judgment.

steve y · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2010, 05:50:53 PM »

Sadly the way of our world now is moral relativism. Black and white are a mere strand of hair and in the middle a deep morass of grey. Good news is the Second Coming is nearer with each passing day. Steve

ShadowMover · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2010, 06:11:32 PM »

Yes , some people don't care about the truth, and others don't know enough facts to figure out the truth, and let somebody else think for them. Sadly there are people who do know the truth and just plain lie about things, and conceal their agendas. It would be easy to get depressed about it.

TN You can check the bottom of the link for Fred's older articles Fred Reed Archives.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2010, 06:32:11 PM »

To me reality is that we cannot discuss politics or religion other than face to face and expect to not have the sort of situations that have arisen here. If you are not face to face with these two subjects it seems inevitable that name calling and personal attacks are going to result.

Both are against the rules at this site. In an ideal world we'd never get angry, we'd always understand clearly the meanings and subtelities in the words written or spoken from everyone. HINT: We don't live in a perfect or ideal world so we ain't gonna always understand what someone means by what they say so what we as humans tend to do is put our own spin on what was said and go from there. Most times that spin is likely not what was intended.

I dare say that with very rare exceptions the members of this site probably agree on 75% or more of the topics we talk about at least in general details. Oh sure there are fine points over which we'd not agree with each other but most here hold very similar values.

If you were to compare anyone who is a member (in good standing) of this site and their views with the views of someone like let's say prez obama or SOTH pelosi or with anyone who is anti gun, anti hunting, gay/lesbian or anyone of a hundred other groups or ideologies we'd find that the views of members here would differ on perhaps 75% or more issues. Yet among ourselves we actually agree far far more than we disagree.

And yet disagree we do and over some of the most minor points almost to fistycuffs figuritively of course since we're not in the same room. Why is that? Beats the heck outta me but I do observe it here daily.

I don't expect moderators here to work miracles or solve the basic problem that plagues this forum and others. That problem as I see it is that the topics we talk about mostly at least on this one forum are topics that we just should not talk about except face to face. So what I hope moderators can do is to see sooner than me or Matt might when a topic is going astray and when folks are beginning to call names and make personal attacks and to end those rule violations. What I don't expect is censorship but merely rules enforcement.

You all agreed to abide by the rules of this site when you registered. You cannot complete the registration process without that agreement. Ya might or might not have read the rules but ya put a check mark in a box that said you have and that you agree to them. So if you agree to abide by them then do it and stop the name calling and personal attacks.

Disagree all ya want, argue all ya want. Just be gentlemen and ladies while doing it.

BoomLover · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2010, 09:14:34 PM »

Well stated! Works for me! Thanks, BoomLover

Victor3 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2010, 10:05:15 PM »

On another open forum I visit, a moderator summed up what he thought was an important basis for civilized discussion. IIRC it was a quote from a pro soccer coach...

"Play the ball, not the man."

In other words, discuss the topic and ignore personalities.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2010, 10:41:31 PM »

then theres always hayseeds like me who got lost when dukiller user the word dickotomize..

no offense brother .. but thats a new one for me..
we do need to cut the bad mouthing each other .. we just different people ,with different views..jmo slim

bobg · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2010, 12:44:15 AM »

I agree with that slim. There were a couple words in that post i didn't understand either.

. I am glad i have never had a problem saying anything to someone face to face. It can get me in trouble but that is half the fun of doing it.

bobg

williamlayton · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2010, 12:56:22 AM »

Well, let's see here.
We all have opinions and we have those opinions because we think they are correct.
We post those opinions.
Others disagree.
They post thier opinion.
Now, if we disagree why do we think the other is a moron? It baffels me.
Sometimes it comes from being afraid of being incorrect, maybe we take it as a personal attack---and it may be.
What the hay. If sumbody don't agree and they call me a redheaded illigitimate does not mean that is what I am--just their opinion.
We have a large group that coffee's every day---face too face--we argue and disagree on one topic--sometimes loudly--and in the next breath, on another subject, stand together.
We have a couple that get mad and hold grudges and we laugh and tease them, poke fun and order a warm up.
Shucks folks, if I have learned anything in 70 years is that --it really don't matter, doesn't mean anything.
Post what is your opinion and step back---there is sure to be somebody that won't agree.
Opinions don't make friend--character does.
Blessings

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2010, 01:09:43 AM »

The majority of us on here have probably been adversely affected by the current political and economical situation. I think that tends to play into our daily moods. It comes out in some of the posts on here.
I come here to gain the insight of intelligent, experienced people. I take away what I want, contribute when I can, and leave the rest behind. I wouldn't have the opportunity to run into such a diverse group of people on a daily basis otherwise and generally leave the site thinking I learned something, I hope that continues.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2010, 01:30:09 AM »

I guess I have discussed thse same thngs fac to face and I probably spoke more openly and much wors than I do here in those situations. I actually restrain myself whem on GBO, I know this sounds shocking but I do try to keep within the rules of the site and hold my tongue often.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2010, 01:50:34 AM »

The amusing fact is people get worked up by someone on this site . In reality you niether know what this person is or believes . Some always take the opposite side or become the devils advocate if you will . Others just like to pick . The bottom line is if YOU allow anyone on site to get your blood pressure up its your own fault really.
Some ideas that might help you get thru.
1- if they attack your spelling or writing , they most likely can't defend their position .
2- If they have never had some action happen to them ie like the talk about dropping a gun then it is ok to assume they have little experince with carrying a gun 24-7. Or very lucky!

3-If the respond off topic then we can figure they didn't read the other post and have no clue .
4 - if they act like they have an agenda its safe to assume they do.
5- now if they get mad and out of line then its ok to assume they are being controled by other posters !
The hardest to figure out is if someone is drunk or trying to stir up things !

nw_hunter · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2010, 01:53:47 AM »

Quote from: slim rem 7 on March 07, 2010, 10:41:31 PM

then theres always hayseeds like me who got lost when dukiller user the word dickotomize..
no offense brother .. but thats a new one for me..
we do need to cut the bad mouthing each other .. we just different people ,with different views..jmo slim

Lawyer talk Slim! They are sesquipedalian in nature. They find it can be very PROFICUOUS

All in fun Dukman!!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2010, 01:56:34 AM »

The sad thing places like this could be used to advance out sport , hobby and unify our political goals .

magooch · « **Reply #27 on:** March 08, 2010, 02:31:08 AM »

I just wish that if people are going to use big words that they were in my dictionary.

One more thought: If we all agreed on everything, this wouldn't be the interesting site that it is. And, if anyone thinks that there is discord on this forum, you've been leading a very sheltered ciber-life.

Old Fart · « **Reply #28 on:** March 08, 2010, 03:25:53 AM »

Never hurts to just agree to disagree folks.

Dee · « **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2010, 03:55:36 AM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on March 07, 2010, 02:28:54 PM

Quote from: GRIMJIM on March 07, 2010, 02:04:09 PM
That's the one thing I notice about the internet. There is no face to face discussion so sometimes it is hard to tell how a person meant something without the facial expressions or tonal inflextions of a face to face discussion.

It is I think human nature to guess intent when you are missing all of the clues we are used to having and a lot of times it's not the correct guess.

+1

I also think that there are some that say things they wouldn't if they were face to face. They use the anonymity of the Internet to say what they would be afraid to say in person.

As far as name calling goes, I see it from some folk that complain about name calling. They have a holier than thou attitude and call names when they dont like a persons point of view.

I have now looked and read the so far 27 posts or critiques of the perceived problem and I see pretty much what I said I have seen, and what I expected to see.
An idealistic view of the way things should be, by those as guilty as any, of what they criticize here on this thread. It is great to sit around and discuss what SHOULD BE, but, it is not, nor will it ever be.The world has been disagreeing, arguing and even fighting for some 7,000 years now.

Take Oldshooter here for example: Read his reply to GRIMJIM's post, and realize that in a thread titled :"What to Do with the Republican Party", he referred to ANYONE WHOM DISAGREED WITH HIM, AND AGREED WITH ME, as "DEE DECIPLES". Not just a condescending slur at me, but ANYONE WHOM AGREED WITH ME. Read the entire post if you care to, and then compare it to what he says NOW, on this thread. I have claimed no innocence, here nor anywhere else, and have stood my ground on what I believe regardless, and can truthfully say have not replied ever in anger, only conviction. Have I at times been a smart ass? You bet, when fired at.! But the difference is, I never pretended to be anything I wasn't, and that is innocent.

Now Oldshooter, your probably mad cause I singled you out ,but here is why I used you as my example. You implied in your post here that you don't do what others do, and I am sure that you will come back and say that you don't but, if you did, there would be consequences at least in my case.

But here's the kicker. If anyone wants to go back and check, I quit answering you posts sometime back, and QUITELY blocked your emails without so much as a mention to ANYONE. But you on the other hand wanted to tell the world, or at least this thread, that you had tried to congratulate me but, I had you blocked. What purpose did that serve? You have been blocked for a long time my friend, you just hadn't checked, and I didn't see a point in advertising it.

Now with this being said, continue on with your discussion, and you now have an example of my point in the first place. I have nothing else to say, I EXPECT sharp criticism, for these remarks, but hope that I have the character not to respond. I will close to these critics concerning this final post, that you have once again missed my point.