Author Topic: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?  (Read 1404 times)

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Offline LAREDOBOB

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What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« on: March 08, 2010, 07:31:49 AM »
  I can't believe the ads I am seeing on TV these days concerning Tax Reduction Agencys. They have some dude saying " I owed $30,000 back taxes and paid only $1500." or something like that. These companies that get your tax libality dropped should be illegal.
 I dislike paying my taxes as much as the next guy, but I was raised that that was the right thing to do and was part of the price of living in this country. I will fight tooth and nail to get every legal deduction but in the end I will always pay what I owe. Why should we who pay our taxes have to tolorate these low lifes that seek and provide ways to get out of paying.
  Why isn't the IRS putting a stop to these companies? I say if you want to not pay taxes and contribute to the country in which you live, just pack your Shirt and go some where like Haiti. We don't need your kind.

(Rant over)

Powderman I know your gonna jump on this one.
"No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country."   T. Roosevelt

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 07:44:02 AM »
I'm not Powder man but...
There is a problem with the punnitive tax system we have.  Not saying no one shouold not pay thier fair share but when the top 10% pay more than 50% of all taxes that does not seem fair.
Also if you call the IRS for clearification on a point any advise they give you even written can not be used as a defence if they deem you owe more.  So with you taking what the IRS said was a legal deduction they then can come ack and say that was not a legal deduction and you not only owe the back taxes but with fines and interest you could owe 2 or 3X what the tax was they said you did not owe in the first place.  So that is where the tax law comes in to effect and where 30,000 is reduced to 1500, the actual amount you should have paid if you did not take thier advice.  And if they are willing to forgive 90% of tax cheats in Congres and the guy running the IRS now why shouldn't the 14th amendment apply to others.  If the law applies to one it applies to all.
This is why I am infavor of a flat (less than 10% Federal) tax rate where you have your first 36,000 to 40,000 tax free and get rid of all the silly rules and forms.  You make 52,000 and you would owe $1,200.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 08:08:26 AM »
I posted on my FB once the stat that in 2009, 46% of the population window who would normally pay taxes (age, etc.) will pay zero, receive a full refund, or receive additional benefits back from the government. I had folks post that they were happy they were one of them, and I admit I had mixed feelings. The same report projected we'll be at 75% of the population either contribution neutral, or in fact receiving benefits without contributing in 5 years under current legislation.

do I agree with taxes, no. but I also don't agree with government benefits. So if I have to pay, I expect only those who pay get benefits. Charity is something I do through the church, not through the state.
held fast

Offline LAREDOBOB

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 10:26:16 AM »
I always thought a Federal Sales Tax was the way to go. EVERYONE pays a fixed percentage on EVERYTHING they purchace. The little guy pays the same percentage Federal Sales Tax on the pack of cigarettes he buys, same on a loaf of bread, car etc. The big companies Ford for example pays the same percentage as the little guy on all the materials and parts they buy to build a car, or a factory. The bigger you are the more you pay. Everyone is taxed the same, NO EXEMPTIONS.
"No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country."   T. Roosevelt

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 10:37:48 AM »
you can by votes when you have a tax system that has no loop holes or deductions
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline rex6666

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 10:45:16 AM »
I have thought that a flat tax or fed sales tax was the way to go, but the
more i think about it, probably wouldn't be long before they found ways
around that. I have always paid taxes and guess i always will, i just can't
understand why some think they should not pay.
Rex
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 10:49:17 AM »
They think that because the politicans tell them so .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline gwhilikerz

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2010, 10:49:42 AM »
Federal sales tax or a Flat Income Tax set at about 15%. If you earn big money you pay 15%. If you are on welfare, disability, minimum income job, etc. you still pay 15%. Everybody pays.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2010, 10:55:28 AM »
Yes and NO.
Right now if ford buys $3,000 worth of stuff to make a $20,000 car they do not pay taxes on it as it is not a finished good and the tax comes as it is sold to an end user.  Now they would pay $3,300 for the parts and the cost of the tax would be added into the to cost of the car so now a 20,300 car that would then have a 2,030 more tax on it.  So what we are now producing and selling for 20,000 will end up costing the end user $22,330 and the added costs will change the demand curve for that good.  Then add to that any state sales tax and the 20,000 car / truck can easily get to 23,904 with the 7.75% sales tax here in CA.  Now does the dealer have to pay the 10% when He buys the car and then you have to pay another 10% when you do?  The Dealer is going to pass his 10% on to you and we now have a 25,000+ car/ truck that was 20,000 before the national sales tax.
With more than 50% of the population NOT paying any federal tax this would either lead to a ressession or deepen any we are currenty in.
What we need to do is get Government out of our lives completely.  Yes we need to pay taxes to have government do what is called out for in the Constitution but it should be a flat rate not a variable rate based on how you spend your money or if you live this way you pay less than others.
We also need to look at all the taxes and fees we pay and what the cost to the economy is over what the lack of that tax would produce.
Did you know there is a tax on your phone bill for only a few cents a month to repay the cost of the Spanish American War in 1898.  the Government collects more each year than the cost of the whole war.  The Battleship Maine included.
I know what you may be thinking.  
Since then we had Mexico in 1916, WW1, Russia, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, Dominica in 65, Lybia, Panama, Gulf War, Kosovo, Gulf war, Afganistan, Iraq, and the war on Terror that his must go to fund or pay down.  NOPE!
Just goes into the general fund.  
With the new Census we should look to see what is the mean house hold income for Single, Single with Kids, and Married with kids and change the Tax laws.  by Lowering the taxes we will lower costs of Products.  Inturn raising the demand for goods, Getting people back to work that would then raise the wage as labor becomes scarce, and as wages rise so do tax revinues.
But The people that are power hungry do not want a well run society as then you will not need them.  There will not be a scape goat, poor eductaion helps this and they are doing their best to keep the population un educated on Economics.
Yes Taxes are needed but every dollar collected is less money in the economy and the Government destroys wealth and has never created any.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 10:58:18 AM »
The strength of a flat tax over a federal sales tax is that businesses don't buy materials from american companies, so no tax revenue would be generated. Some do, but the large ones do not.

But the strength of a sales tax is that its tied to consumption, the more you consume, the more taxes you pay. Some of the largest consumers now pay the least if any in taxes, so a sales tax would flatten that.

If 75% of the workforce will soon be making no contribution to the tax base, or in fact just drawing off of it, the rest of us must be making darn good wages.
held fast

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 11:19:43 AM »
Team Nelson,
I agree that 75% of the population do not pay Income taxes or soon will be.
Even is you are a multi Millionare and deside you are not going to pay taxes by not making any $ and just living off the millions you have.
The Taxes of large companies are built into the price of the good you buy.  So everything you buy has some tax built into it.
If you were to be able to make a widget for $100 sell it for 120 giving yourself a 20% profit and the market will bear that you need to figure that of that $20 the Governement will be taking 30 to 50% in taxes, depending on state.  If you can live on 10 to 14 a unit in Profit than your sales price is fine if you are in a state where State and Fed come to 50% of your last $ earned than you may have to sell that Widget for $140.00.  And then at 140 will you sell enough to meet your profit coverage.  Not only do you need 20% profit but that needs to be X number of real $ to Live and hopefully expand your company.
So you need a widget and you shell out your $140 for it Plus state sales tax.  Of the 140 You shell out $20 of it is for Federal taxes that the company making the widget will pay.
So all the Crack heads on Welfare are paying taxes on the Malt Liquor, Cigarettes, crack Pipes, and Condoms they buy in the store.

Offline Hooker

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 05:43:25 PM »
When taxes become just and we represented according to the Constitution by those taxing us.
When our tax money is no longer squandered by a self serving tyrant government.
Then and only then will I worry my self with those who seek to evade or litigate away their share of taxes.
The very people who burden us with these taxes are taxes cheats , evaders and tax thieves.
And you want to pay your fair share, what a well trained wether.

Pat

" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 02:44:57 AM »
mcwoodduck , the ford example was good but in the over all picture not as big a deal . See small business makes up the lions share of business in America . Most if not all pays tax as they buy product and does not charge a tax at time of sale . True the tax we pay on goods is added in but the services added do not carry a tax .
 Inflation is the TAX we never hear a complaint about why is that ? Inflation is when the Govt. prints mo money . They don't increase anything but debt at the same time so when they add dollars to the dollars already in existance all dollars are worth less . So what tax ? Well as they put the dollars in to the market they do so by spending . They get to spend at the current value of a dollar and only after the market reacts to the new debt does the value go down . So those dollars you saved are worth less now . Is that not a tax ? you just paid for the debt thru. loss of value of your money . slick ain't they ? BTW govt. is the only thing that can cause inflation . Why because they print money . If this were not true then they would not worry about illegal printed money now would they ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline magooch

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 03:35:43 AM »
I do not believe that a federal sales tax is the answer.  It is too easy to tweak it upwards whenever more revenue is needed.  And I don't have to tell anyone that all governments will always find a need for more revenues.

I do not believe that a flat income tax is going to work either, because the masses would never accept the idea of higher income folks paying taxes at the same rate as lower income.  The Dumbycrats would see to that.

Any scheme to change tax rates, or method of taxation has to consider where we are right now.  A flat income tax on everyone would represent an enormous increase on those who presently pay little to nothing.  And what about those who not only pay nothing, but get a rebate that is thousands more than they might have paid in to begin with.

By far, the worst aspect of our present income tax method is its complexity.  There are simply too many ways to make mistakes and too many ways to cheat.  There is also the social engineering aspect.  If you choose to have a herd of kids--you get a break; if you choose to send them to college--you get a tax break.  Lately, if you choose to buy a house--you get a break.  What if I don't want kids, already have a house, but would like to buy a rifle, or a gun safe; where's my tax break?


I want simplification and can't think of anything better than excusing anyone who has reached the age of 65 from paying any income tax at all.  Call it " The Senior Discount."
Swingem

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 06:14:48 AM »
I do not believe that a federal sales tax is the answer.  It is too easy to tweak it upwards whenever more revenue is needed.  And I don't have to tell anyone that all governments will always find a need for more revenues.

I do not believe that a flat income tax is going to work either, because the masses would never accept the idea of higher income folks paying taxes at the same rate as lower income.  The Dumbycrats would see to that.



I agree that the federal Tax is too easy to move up.  I think the law starting it and ending any other tax would have to be any movement upwards will result in the Congress's budget to run being cut by twice the percentage.  Want to move that 10% to 12% then the 135 Million that congress gets to pay congress, the staff, the police force, the Cadiliac health paln, and the transprotation will be cut by 4%.  Each member of Congress will make thier own choice as to cutting staff, travel, or thier personal pay.  After all if I have to give up something or may have to fire people the congress should have to as well. 
A flat tax could be explained and the later question would be if you take from him and he employes you or members of your family with his excess income are you willing to have them fire you to give more $ to the government?  That is when you start quoting JFK.  No Pinko Commie will disagree with JFK on the Air.  The only one that would was Teddy Kennedy but we can mark that up to the Brain tumor making him say stupid things. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 06:45:54 AM »
The best way to fix it is go back to a gold standard and change our money . The govt. can't make more than they can back. It worked for 100 years . Look at how many depressions we have had or near had since we switched .
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2010, 07:25:40 AM »
But the Gold Standard did not allow for greation of Paper wealth and the limit of $ limited the expansion of the economy.  If there is only 900 billion worth of Gold then the economy can only be a 900 Billion sized economy.  This is the reason why Spain was so Powerful in the late 1400's to 1600's was all the Gold flowing out of the new world and into the coffers of Spain to produce ships, and other goods that had the Crown could pay for with hard $.
The prolem we have had is the Dolts we have ellected do not under stand economics and think like a 5 year old.
We need more money just stick the card in the ATM and get more.  And supply and Demand also occur in money.  If you have a lot in circulation it is worth less and interest rates go down, and prices rise, if you have too little in circulation then the interest rates rise and prices drop.
We need to pry the Marx, Mao, Nome Chompski, Mine Komf, and others out of the hands of this President and his friends and staff and insert Thomas Jefferson, Milton Freedman, and Alexander Hamilton.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 07:54:30 AM »
the Gold standard would end inflation . Prices would stablize , yes they would rise AND fall to meet market conditions but would hoover around a "normal" price . Paper wealth is a joke really . Supply and demand should set the market. Also gold would demand only a certian amount of cash would be aval. Not a bad thing really , we would need to get used to prices rising and falling to match demand instead of inflation . Do you realize that in 1914 a dollar was worth a dollars worth of gold today its worth 4 cents worth of gold . the rest is debt ! Its not how mush money is aval. its what it can buy . And 1914 dollars would buy more . What that means is in todays world your savings is loosing buying power every day . Say buy gold in todays market ? in the long run you will loose as it can at the very best keep up with inflation . Good you say , well until you sell it and pay the tax which puts it in the loss col. , you could sell it illegal and not report it and chance being even.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 08:51:39 AM »
I have been buying and selling Silver for a while.  I think the first allowance I got was in Silver coins and I liked that feeling of Silver so since then I have bought an ounce here or there and when prices went up sold it.
But if silver or gold is at what ever price there is a Spot mark up to turn the raw silver into bars or gold.
So while the price is X you pay X+ for the item and then need to wait for the price to get above the purchase price and that can take a few years.  When I was 14 I remember silver bing about $7 an ounce and paying 9-10 and ounce and then finally sold it when I was just getting out of College for about 11 and Ounce.  Paper investments would have paid better.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 09:13:19 AM »
factor in inflation and you are negative . Silver will be good in the event of hyper inflation as a product could cost 2 silver quarters or 100 cash a day or two later 200 cash and still a couple silver quaters . You can see its not for investment but trade . hard products will be a better hedge than cash in the bank in such times . Believe it or not the euro is a good investment right now , go figure .
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 10:01:46 AM »
factor in inflation and you are negative . Silver will be good in the event of hyper inflation as a product could cost 2 silver quarters or 100 cash a day or two later 200 cash and still a couple silver quaters . You can see its not for investment but trade . hard products will be a better hedge than cash in the bank in such times . Believe it or not the euro is a good investment right now , go figure .
I know that is why I have been restocking my Silver coins and Oz's as well as AI have added some Gold coins.  I am at that point right now of do I buy an OZ of Gold or get the new 308 Rifle I want.
OK some one give me an answer.

Offline Hooker

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 12:40:37 PM »
A fine weapon is like a good woman they are worth more than gold.
A man can have enough gold but never enough guns.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2010, 12:59:24 PM »
A fine weapon is like a good woman they are worth more than gold.
A man can have enough gold but never enough guns.

Pat
OK rifle it is.
Thought you were going to go the other way.  When needed the rifle can get you more gold but not always the other way around.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 02:25:25 PM »
Friend of mine recently noted you can't eat gold, and you can't live in a portfolio. I think about that alot. Most of my money is fictitious, its based entirely on the insurance of a government which is considered a bad investment risk. Assuming it holds together long enough for me to even tap into my retirement, inflation will render it meaningless. There is no cash, no gold, no standard. Just a worldwide gentlemen's agreement that we'll never ask for all of it back at the same time. I'd gladly trade my portfolio for a good peace of farmable land, a sturdy house off the grid, some livestock and a well.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 02:33:26 PM »
factor in inflation and you are negative . Silver will be good in the event of hyper inflation as a product could cost 2 silver quarters or 100 cash a day or two later 200 cash and still a couple silver quaters . You can see its not for investment but trade . hard products will be a better hedge than cash in the bank in such times . Believe it or not the euro is a good investment right now , go figure .
I know that is why I have been restocking my Silver coins and Oz's as well as AI have added some Gold coins.  I am at that point right now of do I buy an OZ of Gold or get the new 308 Rifle I want.
OK some one give me an answer.

Take the gold and buy the rifle, if push comes to shove obama will confiscate the gold as did FDR during the depression! If you dont study history you are bound to repeat it!
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Offline powderman

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2010, 03:58:53 PM »
 I am at that point right now of do I buy an OZ of Gold or get the new 308 Rifle I want.
Buy the rifle of course. The rifle will get you the gold. Kinda like the commercial with the 2 cavemen. You give me rock, I give you fire. Then after the trade the guy with the rock takes the fire. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline gypsyman

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2010, 10:02:51 PM »
We wouldn't need to change the tax system, if the people in charge took better care of how they spent it. I don't mind paying tax's, when it's spent wisely. Support the military,NASA,HONEST govt. grants for reasearch, not the mating pattern of the tetse fly. When Nancy Pelosi fly's back and forth to Ca. at our expense of a quarter of a million a shot. How many ''business trips'' do these politicians take, and this is not just federal, but local and state politicians as well. How many people on the govt. dole. The govt. has been on a druken binge for over 40 years. The hangover is about to begin. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2010, 02:49:27 AM »
Some are saying ammo is a good investment for the hard times to come .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2010, 10:18:45 AM »
We wouldn't need to change the tax system, if the people in charge took better care of how they spent it. I don't mind paying tax's, when it's spent wisely. Support the military,NASA,HONEST govt. grants for reasearch, not the mating pattern of the tetse fly. When Nancy Pelosi fly's back and forth to Ca. at our expense of a quarter of a million a shot. How many ''business trips'' do these politicians take, and this is not just federal, but local and state politicians as well. How many people on the govt. dole. The govt. has been on a druken binge for over 40 years. The hangover is about to begin. gypsyman
I disagree with the  Government grants for research.  Offer a reward for results.
If the government desides it needs a cure or vacinne for some thing, insteat of giving away $ to someone that thinks they may have an idea of how to cure it and then the grant money becomes a boondogle where the data is fudged to show some progress so the grant will be extended. 
Look at the whole man Made Global warming fiasco.  This was a scam to obtain government and private grants.  Reward results!
Prove you can do it and hand them Millions Tax free, but then the Patents would be public domain.
Rewards may have people back to building and inventing in their garage, want a car that meets the safety standards but get 100MPG on what ever the fuel (Diesel, Gas, Cooking oil, Water)  Offer a reward for designing and building it.  less tax dollars would be waisted in the phoney grant system that rewards failure and fraud.
Also if the tax rates were not so high I would not have a problem paying them.  In Roman times if the tax rate was more than 7% the people rioted and killed the tax collectors.  The prolem we have now is we do not have to write a check to the government every two weeks to pay our payroll taxes and the amount that we pay has gotten away from us.  Also Social Security would be Private if you understood how much $ is sent to the Governemnt that you will never see.  If 90% was invested in a private account that you were not allowed to touch till you retired but was yours and the other 10% went as a safety net in case of market collapse, or as a safety net for some reason then the government social security would not be needed and wealth could be created.  But they would want to tax it to control you

Offline teamnelson

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Re: What ever happened to ethics? Is this where we are headed?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2010, 10:29:24 AM »
Some are saying ammo is a good investment for the hard times to come .

I consolidated part of my portfolio last night, soldifying my brass, lead, powder and primer commodities into a more liquefiable asset.  ;D
held fast