Is there a place for this "hypothetical" bolt-action survival pistol?

[Couger]

Was in a new gun shop recently and saw a brand new singleshot BOLT ACTION .22LR handgun with a 12inch barrel.

Its called the "Chipmunk" and is a takeoff of the Crickett (and Chipmunk) rifles made for "todler" size children who's daddys' want them to start shooting as soon as they can walk and talk and ask to "go shooting!"

Rougue Arms that used to make the "Chipmunk" rifle was bought out by Keystone Arms who make the "Crickett" rifle, but apparently saw a niche - however limted - for a .22LR handgun based on their tiny  barreled actions ......

That got me to thinking ...... About what a dedicated rimfire survival weapon might look like?

So my question to GBO members ...... Does anyone else besides me think such a firearm would have a place in a scram-pack or when foraging for "wild protein?"

What I would want with such a single-shot bolt-action .22LR, is to have as lightweight and as compact as possible, in a .22LR handgun that is "rifle accurate" but a "pistol" in size and weight.

But also REMEMBER that its illegal to take a .22 rifle with its serialized action, and even following ATF FA'34 rules that require pistols or rifles to have barrels of certain [legally required] lengths and overall lengths ...... a person cannoty legally change a rifle into a pistol, or a pistol into a rifle legally - with rare exceptions!  (Thompson Center guns come to mind, and anyone who's applied to the ATF to reclassifly gun parts ...... )

In a nutshell, since that "Chipmunk" handgun is already a handgun - and the barrel can be as long or short as a person wants! (as long as its not smoothbore, then it would be defined as a shotgun!  with all of those "rules" applying).

What if that Chipmunk barreled-action was shortened to 6 or 8 or 10 inches?

And put on an extremely compact and ltwt stock?

With a two to four-power optic?

Would such a dedicated .22LR handgun have a place in the survival pack?



Comments?  (I'm not interested in whether anyone thinks modifying such gun as the new Chipmunk is stupid).  Rather I hope only those individuals who comment would want a "dedicated" and accurate "survival" .22LR and would find such a firearm "useful" and even desireable?

THANKS!

[Couger]

By the way ......



Who here is familiar with those tiny North American Arms derringer-sized rimfire revolvers?



There's one they make called the Mini Master that has a grip on it that's actually big enough to hold onto,  along with its adjustable-sights 4-inch barrel!  I know a fellow who has one, carries it to shoot small sharks that won't leave his bait alone when fishing off the WA coast!  

If somehow that NAA company offered the same "revolver" (5-shot) with a 6 or 8in barrel ...... I might say to heck with my idea above and buy the "Buntline" Mini Master instead!

[sachel.45]

i think id rather have the rifle version espeialy(sp) since they make a rifle in .22 mag and i think there about 30" OAL but if  i wasent limited to crickket products id rather have a repeater of some sorts like marlins .22 mag bolt action with with a tube magazine. i find the .22lr and mag very versatile and desirable to have in a survival situation arguably one of the best survival cartridges. but if your talking just pistols here id have to go with the single six yesterday i tried shooting .22lr out of the mag cylinder and it worked fine with about the same accuracy as the .22lr out of the .22lr cylinder. however i think if NAA made there earl revolver with adjustable sights id be a preety cool and useful gun

[burntmuch]

A skeleton stock you could add to it & take off when packing. Or a hollow stock with 100 rounds of 22 LR.
 As far as scopes a 2X in QR rings that you could take off & put back on. What does the pistal weigh. The lighter the better. Definetly would be usefull

[Couger]

I could see going with the .22WMR for some folks as it would and should have its place, altho I like the .22LR for its better versatility - and ability to shoot Longs, Shorts and CB caps, too.

Burntmuch,  I like your idea about the skeleton-stock.  Wonder if something could be perfeckted that was similar to the Kel-Tec composite stocks seen on their SU-16 rifles, that was like a stock when the barreled-action was installed and could serve as a rigid storage "sock" the bar-action was taken off?

Not counting the optic, if the barrel was 1/2 to 5/8in diam and the action-part was 3/4inch diam (biggest), don't see why such a hypothetical piece should weigh more than 2lbs.  if not 1 1/2lbs.

Of course if it was made of titanium and or carbon fiber, weight might be really low!  and the cost prohibitive (unless one was 007 or with the CIA!).   

[Almtnman]

Couger, it might prove to be a useful tool for placing in a bugout bag, small, light weight, accurate and handy to have.

[Badnews Bob]

I think if I was going with a pistol like you mention I would look at the Ruger charger. It is my personal thoughts on this being a clip fed auto loader may be more useful, But still pretty much the same type firearm as the chipmunk.

[burntmuch]

Couger yo got me thinking. Id like to see A picture of this pistal. Also what was the price, Now I love the 22 mag. but I think for this the 22 lr would work out better. Something Ive been thinking about for a single shot 22 lr  Nef was a 22lr clip mounted in to the hollow stock. Basicly a speed feed stock. Or a  magazine tube incorporated into the skeleton stock. All under 2lbs & compact would be sweet.

[Couger]

I'd like to see a picture of this pistal. Also what was the price?   Now I love the 22 mag. but I think for this the 22 lr would work out better.  Something Ive been thinking about for a single shot 22 lr  Nef was a 22lr clip mounted in to the hollow stock. Basicly a speed feed stock. Or a  magazine tube incorporated into the skeleton stock. All under 2lbs & compact would be sweet.  

Wish I had a pic AND a way to post said pic!  The Chipmunk pistol sells for a little over $200 if I remember correctly.

However what I have envisioned is using a .22 rimfire-sized bolt-action that's what ever diameter such a piece of hardware is, with an 8 or 10in threaded barrel screwed into it (not pinned), squared and blue-printed like a quality Remington, Ruger or Winchester rifle would be put-together.

Size-wise consider what the upper receiver/barrel looks like from a Ruger Mk II  or Mk III pistol, even using those dimensions.  Of course a .22 bolt action isn't really "tiny."  I suppose and 8inch version of what i'm "imagining" as I design this back-packer/survival special would be at least 14-16 inches long (or longer) before putting on a pistol-grip frame.

If I was going to create a "simple" designed wooden stock/frame, I'd find some laminated maple or similar stock that wasn't any thicker than a M1911A1 is wide, and would actually cut a similar-looking silhouette-piece of "stock" before starting to shape and work it.  IOW, the wooden stock I envision would have a built-in pistol grip not unlike a M1911 with the same ergonomics.  

But the goal would be to make it as streamlined and small and compact and lightweight AS POSSIBLE!  

Now if it was possible to use a material like Kydex or the open-polymer material used by both Choate and Bell&Carlson, that would definitely be easier to shape with a rasp!  But possibly not as rigid as the laminated, M1911-looking stock.

I suppose if there were only the restrictions that pistols had to be certain dimension as well as rifles, and then a gunsmith-designer set out to design and build a Crickett/Chipmunk-size survival gun, I suppose the size could be incredibly small and lightweight!

But Congreff and the gun-haters in this country, along with F-troop (BATF) would probably complain such a small survival tool was too dangerous and clandestine for Joe Private Sixpack to privately own!

What attracted me to the Chipmunk pistol besides its concept is that they sell for $200-$230 or so.  Finding a suitable donor-action in a Remington M700 for making a custom build (of some kind) will run $350-$400 or more.  I might be willing to spend that much (overall) to build my special .22LR survival gun - if I was certain the quality and success would be there in that "tool" when I was done.  The stock and other parts could be sold from the Chipmunk - to help defer part of its cost.

Otherwise I'd resort back to the numerous (altho none of them are perfekt!) .22LR choices we've each seen and often talked about here at GBO.  I first identified my need for a ltwt hiker-.22 when I lived in Utah one deer season.

On three successive trips/hikes/stalks I came across three rifled grouse that seemed retarded!  (can I use that word!!??  just did!).  A couple grouse acted like they'd never seen humans and didn't flush nor try to escape!  Not at first. 

One of them managed to walk just-faster than me staying literally just inches away from my outstretched hand!  It was comical - along with being quite exasperating at the time!  A pocket-size .22 would've allowed me to pop it in the head and then into the pot!  But while guns like the 3 1/2 - 4inch S&W422 existed, or the tiny  Beretta or Taurus or Lorcern (sp?) sat-specials also exist, their really short 2-3inch barrels don't provide much performance.

I've studied a lot of data about .22's, and the fellow who owns Sound Technologies (Pelham, AL) published a couple tables on ammo he's tested when building his suppressed guns.

On average most .22LR ammo max-out performance wise at 16inches - in both the M10/22 and M77/22, according to Dr. Marc White (the owner and founder).  The M10/22 table breaks down as follows ......;

16 inch barrel, 100% of performance
14in bbl,  99% of performance  (-1%)
12inches,  97%  (-3)
10inches,  96%  (-4)
8inches,    93%  (-7%)
6inches,    89%  (-11%)
4inches,    82%  (-18%)

Also a CCI Velocitor is advertised as giving 1435fps MV.  

From a 6inch handgun if those above figures are indeed correct,  one can expect to measure @1277fps - which is actually faster than the advertised muzzle velocity from a CCI Mini-Mag or other high velocity .22LR round!  Personally I prefer standard velocity ammo for most of my .22 shooting, altho the Velocitor is a special application IMO, as is the Stinger (also made by CCI) and the brand of CB caps I prefer  (again, made by CCI).

Too bad a company like Kel-Tec doesn't make a lightweight .22 backpacker gun!  Or North American Arms doesn't offer a "buntline" model of some kind!  

I once owned a pop-metal Phoenix Arms P22 pistol with its 3in barrel (an optional 5inch bbl is available).  I ran a clp-full of Stingers through it, or thought I would!  Damn cheapo pistol came apart on me at about the 4th round.  At the recoil the firing pin was ejected and hit me in the chest (wasn't hurt).  I sold the piece after that.  But that little gun had a 3.0inch bbl and was extremely accurate!!!

I could easily get by on survival, with an 8inch version of the NAA Mini Master.  I'd pack the .22WMR cylinder just because, along with an assortment of Long Rifle fodder for the std cylinder, altho standard velocity or subsonic ammo would meet 90plus percent of my needs!

[teamnelson]

Did it look like this?



Have you looked at the Rossi single-shot as a platform?

[sachel.45]

if you can wait a few months keltec is coming out with a .22 mag pistol that looks like it will fit your needs granted its a .22 mag (which i love) looks like it should come in at 20 ounces with a loaded 30 round mag price should be just under 300 bucks i want one really bad
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pmr30.htm

[burntmuch]

Im chomping at the bit for one of those keltecs. That would work for sure. & its pretty light. If you could attach a shoulder stock to it . to help with longer shots. As far as the chipmunk , I think Id rather have a synthetic stock. Maybe look into some stocks for airsoft guns. or something to that effect. Would like to get my hands on one & take it apart. Couger ,what you could do is pick one up & do your mods take pics for us.  Would make a nice project. But the keltec covers alot of bases. Plus would be better for self defence. 

[Badnews Bob]

I am thinking with the right tools you could build a rolling block or falling block kind of action in .22 size and pretty much make it to suit your needs.

I do believe that a firearm made by you for your use only has a little looser laws governing it than one manf for retail. Don't quote me on that thou.

[sachel.45]

theres a rumor that theres going to be a carbine based on the pmr 30 much like the grendel r30 and r31 (carbine) heres a pic of the grendel r31 http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1500/1548.htm i would think that there would be alot of simulaties between the old r31 and what ever the new carbine is going to be called

[Victor3]

On three successive trips/hikes/stalks I came across three rifled grouse that seemed retarded!  (can I use that word!!??  just did!).  A couple grouse acted like they'd never seen humans and didn't flush nor try to escape!  Not at first. 

One of them managed to walk just-faster than me staying literally just inches away from my outstretched hand!  It was comical - along with being quite exasperating at the time!

 I grabbed a chucker once. I think he decided to surrender after seeing his friends get shot up...



 On your Chipmunk concept, I think I'd rather have a long-barreled 22 revolver or auto. I used to have a Rem XP-100 in 7mm BR, but I've never been fond of bolt rifle actions squished into handgun form. Not very practical IMO.

[Graybeard]

Is there a place for it? Not in my world.

[Couger]

I grabbed a chucker once. I think he decided to surrender after seeing his friends get shot up...

On your Chipmunk concept, I think I'd rather have a long-barreled 22 revolver or auto. I used to have a Rem XP-100 in 7mm BR, but I've never been fond of bolt rifle actions squished into handgun form. Not very practical IMO.  

A "long barreled" NAA Mini Master (5-shot mini revolver) is why I suggested that smallish pistol might be good to carry in a survival kit.  It would be purely for hunting food up 20-30 yards.  (provided both the gun and I am accurate enough to kill game at those ranges!)

ADDED:  The NAA @Mini Master is the largest revolver that company makes, with its ventilated 4inch barrel and adjustable sights.

I suppose with the .22WMR cylinder it comes with it could be used as a mouse gun, and would be fairly potent actually because of the .22WMR round!  But IMO thats not a good reason to buy the Mini Master - "for protection!"

I chose the idea of using a modified .22 bolt action with an 8 or 10in barrel purely for its size [and function], altho with a barrel that long I also know the necessary performance would be assured from the Long Rifle round as well as accuracy.

BadnewsBob suggested that maybe a falling/rolling block action might could be adapted to this survival gun.  That idea had crossed my mind, as well as some kind of T/C Contender-like piece might could work shooting .22's too.  

I've spent some time perusing GunBroker.com tracking singleshot .22's being sold including "Stevens Favorites" or whatever other falling/rolling block .22's have been made.  Sure would be great if it was INDEED TRUE that private owners could [LEGALLY] own (without resale and certainly without penalty!) a non-FA'34 restricted privately modified gun.  The Firearms Act of 1934 is what stipulates a rifle or shotgun must be 26inches long, with a minimum 16inch-rifled barrel or minimum 18inch-smooth bore barrel - RESPECTIVELY!  And yes I realize there's much more to that law than just one or two sentences.

One thing that drew my attention on Gunbroker.com is that the Explorer II pistol is available, the handgun version of the AR-7/Survivor/Explorer rifles that collapse into a floating stock.  The Explorer II pistols use the same magazines as the rifles, but with an 8in or 10in screw-on barrel.

There is also the new (for yr2010)  T/C Hot Shot youth .22's that look like scaled-down Contender carbines.  I've heard very little about them and Thompson Center actually says very little on their site about that new gun - like whether it only comes in rifle form, or also handgun form!

I might just say to heck with creating this [extravgant] project and stick with my polymer-framed Ruger Mk2 version of the M22/45.  It wouldn't be as small as I might like, I married a 4inch upper assembly from a Mk II with a standard M22/45, then sold the blued Mk II frame with a stainless "bull" M22/45 upper - leaving me with a fairly lightweight (altho steel and plastic) all black/blue M22/45!

What I ultimately will do with that M22/45 is to buy a mostly-aluminum but precision-made Tactical Solutions @Paclite upper assembly and put that on my M22/45 frame!  

However it seems the longest upper assy that tac-solutions.com makes for my M22/45 is 6inches.  Maybe I could persuade the company to make me an 8inch or 10inch version?  

If I found myself in a survival situation I'd have busted my butt to have another weapon for protection, whether a larger hangun or rifle shotgun.  

Even in camp or when hiking I would have a larger weapon with me when using a .22LR for survival or food procurement.  Of course in a real SHTF/TEOTWAWKI scenario we'd all better be learning to use traps and more silent methods to "hunt" than guns as well.      

[Couger]

I am thinking with the right tools you could build a rolling block or falling block kind of action in .22 size and pretty much make it to suit your needs.

I do believe that a firearm made by you for your use only has a little looser laws governing it than one manf for retail. Don't quote me on that thou.  

I understand and agree with your ideas.  Plus it could indeed be a good thing if we were "allowed"* to make and use "tools" we made for oursleves!

* ..... somehow my use of the word "allowed" seems synomymous  with "infringed!"   

[Victor3]

What I ultimately will do with that M22/45 is to buy a mostly-aluminum but precision-made Tactical Solutions @Paclite upper assembly and put that on my M22/45 frame!  

However it seems the longest upper assy that tac-solutions.com makes for my M22/45 is 6inches.  Maybe I could persuade the company to make me an 8inch or 10inch version?  

 That would be a neat, lightweight gun. They used to make an 8" version. Wouldn't hurt to ask if they'd make you a long one. I heard they used to do some custom stuff for individuals but I don't know if they still do that.

 I'd also ask if they'd put Type III (hardcoat) anodizing on it. AFAIK, they use Type II for their off the shelf units. It's an inferior coating that scratches/dings easily and will wear down to bare aluminum quickly where the bolt rides. Not many gun companies us Type II. Can't get Type III in fancy colors though...

[Couger]

Went to the monthly gun show last minute yesterday.


One vendor had a singleshot .22 rifle for sale I wish I had had time to pick and hold, to look at more closely.  Model was a forty-something or sixty-something.

It was an old fifties (or 40's?) vintage singleshot someone had "smithed" into an extremely lightweight and "short" backpacker special, including minimal optic.  Actually was done well altho someone not familiar with the idea might thip it was a chop job.  Barrel was cut and crowned well and had a worn blue finish

I thought it was over priced at $275, which happens often here is Woorsheengton state.

The rifle had a minimal 16in barrel with a minimal bull countour - about 5/8inch from receiver to muzzle.  Stock looked to have a 13in LOP (or thereabouts) and was unfinished.  Stock was cut down to half a foreend.

Overall length was less than 30in maybe 28?  And besiides the 3/4inch-tube .223 Scope it wore (an old Weaver I think), it had a nice, simple 1-inch leather sling.

Like i said it was over priced!  but apparently designing and packing a hiking or camp .22 rifle has been an interest of many generations of shooters!