Author Topic: armi-sports sharps rifle (Read 8836 times)

sigsauer_ · « **on:** March 09, 2010, 07:10:07 AM »

Hello everyone. I just purchased a 1874 armi sports sharps in 45/70. Question i have is...My speer reloading manual lists 3 diffrent sectiopns for the sharps actions... One for the trapdoor..one for lever actiopns...one for the ruger actions. I certaintly can not use the ruger section because fbe off the extreme pressure...so i am wondering if i can load lever action section pressures.thank

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2010, 11:03:45 AM »

Stay with the trapdoor

Maritime Storm · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2010, 12:45:18 AM »

E-mail Armi-Sport for a definite answer, otherwise use the load data for the Trapdoor for safety's sake. At minimum it would have been built for the factory ammo pressures, which are loaded specifically for use in the trapdoor models as they were the weakest action available in that cartridge originally.

8iowa · « **Reply #3 on:** March 12, 2010, 03:28:50 AM »

In a 1980 "Guns & Ammo" article on Sharps rifles, Elmer Keith reported that he was frequently asked what smokeless powder was best for the Sharps. Crusty old Elmer's reply was "NONE"! And then he went on to explain why the rifle was best served with black powder loads. He of course was referring to his experience with his seven original Sharps rifles, which he had used extensively for hunting.

Modern Sharps rifles are made with modern steel, which manufacturers claim is stronger. However, the basic action, which goes back to the Sharps Civil War rifle and carbine, is a black powder pressure design. While there are those who load cartridges to 40,000 psi and higher for their Sharps rifles, I prefer my black powder loads. After all, who am I to argue with old Elmer.

Factory 45-70 cartridges are loaded to around 1300 fps with 405 grain jacketed bullets. They are designed for lever action rifles with tubular magazines and have an overall length of 2.550 inches in order to function thru the action. You can do a lot better than this in your single shot Sharps. Your only OAL limitation is where the bullet engages the rifling in the throat of the chamber. Thus, longer and heavier bullets with a better ballistic coefficient can be used. Black Powder Silhouette shooters commonly use lead/tin allow bullets up to 550 grains for this long range competition, which of course limits powders to black or black substitute. Hunters also use these loads in their Sharps rifles to take big game up to and including buffalo. Frankly, I don't know why someone would need more than this.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2010, 10:09:04 AM »

Some gunsmiths question the strength of steel used in some of the Italian guns, particularly the springs. Fortunately, replacement springs seem to be available. I have an EMF Sharps and I note a major difference in the amount of force it takes to open the lever on a Uberti vs. the EMF. I dont know the significance of this, but my instinct is that the Uberti is the better made gun.

I have gone through the "Marlin" phase with stronger guns and can assure you that shooting Marlin loads in a Marlin Guide Gun takes the pleasure out of shooting. Its more like going for a bout with a prize fighter. Prize fighters have their place, but not in a relatively weak design like a Sharps. There are applications that may require Marlin loads, but Im finding fewer and fewer of them are necessary, the notable exceptiion being big Hogs.

What the Sharps will give you is a major league introduction into the world of cast bullets. Cast bullets are what makes the 45-70 so much fun! Its not hard to get really excellent accuracy from cast bullets ranging from 350 grains to 500 grains. The 45-70 is not a 100 yard cartridge unless you want it to be.

I have gotten really excellent results with IMR4198 and 405 grain cast bullets at TRAPDOOR velocity.

NickSS · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2010, 01:11:06 AM »

I'll second what suveyor47 has written as my experiences go right along with his. I should not that I own 5 45-70 single shots, three 95 marlins and an 1886 Winchester in 45-70. I also have owned Ruger No1 and No3 rifles. I have loaded ammo up that would make you black and blue for a week or two just to fire one roung (500 gr JSP at 1850 fps in a Ruger #3) but unless I was chasing Alaskan Brown Bear of Grizzly bear I would never need or load to those levels. Most of my 45-70 rounds are loaded with black powder and with those loads I have killed deer and elk very cleanly. As I know my loads and use a range finder I have even killed elk at 312 yards with my C Sharps 1875 45-70 rifle and I want to point out that the bullet went in one side and out the other at that range pushed with black powder at a leasurly 1225 fps with a 400 gr bullet. What more power do you need?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2010, 02:00:18 PM »

If you were to have a reputable firm test the steel of that Italian rifle action it would probably come back as something like mild steel with case colors, not even case hardening. Ive read several metalurgical tests like this and Im sorry I cannot refer you to them. Even so, I like the guns, but would keep them to 'level one' loads and preferrably Black Powder.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 09, 2010, 09:25:24 PM »

At first I was very discouraged with my AEI Sharps, due to extremely heavy trigger pull that made accurate shooting impossible. With a little gunsmithng, my Sharps 1874 Carbine is becoming a real favorite. I shoot it with lead bullets only at Trapdoor levels. This gun really prefers 405 grain bullets and they hit the 100 yard hanging plates extremely hard. Yestarday, I shot one off both bunge cords and it ended up flying about 10 feet sideways, ending up 2 posts down from where it started. Any deer hit that hard ought to go down on the spot.

haterock · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2010, 01:51:46 PM »

Try to examine the action of your rifle. You will most likely find an Italian proof-mark for smokeless powder. ( If You dont know how it looks like then try to google it ). If You find it Your rifle has been tested to 29.000 psi + 30 %. That means that You can load Your ammo to 29.000 psi or safely use all commercially manufactured 45/70 ammo.

shot1 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2010, 05:00:50 PM »

If you want to shoot cast bullets and smokeless powder get you some Accurate 5744. I use 28 grs with a Lyman #457193 mold and wheel weights and get a 418 gr bullet that shoots very well unsized and hand lubed. It will shoot through a deer from chest out the rear end at 100 yards with no problem. This is very accurate also. I prefer black powder for the longer range shooting and a 500 gr RCBS BPS mold with my mix will drop a 520 gr bullet that really shoots with a case full of BP and a 30 thousands Walters wad and about 1/10 inch compression on the powder. SPG lube or my own mix of 50% bees wax 40% olive oil and 10% STP oil treatment by volume works great to keep the fouling soft and no leading.

Steve E · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2010, 04:18:25 PM »

I just about use the same as shot1 with just about the same results. I have a Navy Arms Rolling Block barreled by Virgin Valley Custom Guns with a Lee 405 gr. bullet cast from wheel weight and shot as cast with hand lubing over 28 grs. of 5744 for excellent results. I haven't connected with anything warm blooded yet but there is always hope. I'll probably use that same load as a starting point for my Chiappa 1874 Sharps I'm picking up Monday.

Steve E..........

Steve E · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2010, 11:04:01 AM »

Well my load of 28 gr. 5744 and the Lee 405 gr. as cast and hand lubed went into a group of 2.5 inches at 100 yds with the plain iron sights that came on the Armi Sports 1874 Sharps. The good thing is that the 500 gr. Lyman bullets went into the same size group and was centered about 1 inch to the left from the 405 gr. bullets. My next purchase will be a Tang sight with a Globe front sight like on my Rolling block.

Steve E............

mechanic · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2010, 01:55:04 PM »

I would recommend you contact Armi for a manual, and load recommendations. I certainly would not "push the envelope" without proper knowledge. The folks that made it would know whats best.

"Ben

Steve E · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2010, 02:00:37 PM »

Legacy Sports has the manuals on their website in PDF form.

Steve E..........

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2010, 06:50:08 PM »

I'd stick to trapdoor loads in that model of Sharps reproduction. If your not reloading that means standard factory loads (not LeverEvolution though). If your loading your own go with Level one loads. But is you wnat real fun, load some Blackhorn 209 and get the old fashioned smoke pole look with the new fangled smokeless clean-up. Just go to Blackhorn's site and read up on their cartridge load data first, it takes a little tinkering.

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #15 on:** December 16, 2010, 12:17:35 AM »

Kevin thank you for your post. I am seriously considering getting a 45-70 in a handi and that info really sounds good plus it sounds like fun. the idea of "soft" loads for this old man, but yet would still bulldoze a deer.

I think it was bikerbeans that said to me, in a forum when I complained that some of the loads posted that they sounded like they "killed" on both ends, "that the RELOADER CONTROLS THE RECOIL". yep! But I really like the idea of the BP substitute that cleans up sooooo easy. Thanks again. God Bless to all.

Goofy <aka GOF>

mattbowen · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2010, 01:32:50 AM »

Sig;

I have been told to stay away from the Sharps made by Armi because of weaker internal parts and not so good accuracy, I am wondering what your opinion of the rifle is.

Thanks

Matt

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2010, 03:48:41 AM »

If I had one, I would shoot 'trapdoor' level loads in it only, and probably only mid-data loads at that, for those very reasons.

Steve E · « **Reply #18 on:** December 24, 2010, 09:31:07 AM »

Matt

I really love my Armi Sports Sharps rifle, it is the most accurate rifles I own(I have 4 in 45-70) in 45-70. The fit and finish is better than most rifles, the checkering is all crisp with all their points and no overruns. I know it is not a scientific test by any means but I took a sharp file and nicked some of the internal parts I could get to and they felt as hard any other parts I tried it on from other guns.
I remember some Sharps 'in the white kit guns' I saw at a gun show a few years back, the Dealer said they were from Cape Outfitters (I believe). The metal would have required quite bit of polishing and the wood looked like it was turned by a crazed Beaver with one tooth missing. He said the metal would need hardening also. It all looked too easy to pass up.

Steve E...........

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 24, 2010, 10:53:32 AM »

The file test just doesnt tell you what is under the surface hardening. For some parts a good hard top is all they need to keep from wearing prematurely, as in a hammer and sear. A frame is another matter. The rifles of the late 1800s were beefy to hold up; they often werent quite sure how much they could take, and metalurgy was not scientific and repeatable like nowdays. And they were using black powder.
I remember a proper test of a Uberti 1885Win. 'clone' some years back (10 maybe). That is a design well regarded in Win. form for some pretty intense cartridges. It has the history to back it up. The Uberti tested out as basically mild steel under the 'case' hardening. It is a tribute to the design that it holds up even when made of 'mild steel', however,
a prudent man might consider that after X number of heavy smokeless loads he may have a very loose rifle. If you consider it a 'throw away' then, OK; if you want it to last you might be better served by using lighter loads and/or black powder (or equiv.) only.
Just because it looks like a Winchester doesnt mean it is.
The same with these other Italian repros of classic rifles. At this point I am seeing them priced at about what I have still found the real thing for. Yes, they need some work, but when done are still the real deal, and hold a much better resale if done right.

mattbowen · « **Reply #20 on:** December 25, 2010, 02:37:04 AM »

Thanks for the reply fellow, if and when I do get one I want to shot black powder in it if I can find it locally.

Thanks again

Tommie D · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2011, 07:14:01 PM »

It states right in the owners manual that their "Proof Tested", any by who and how and all that jazz.
I'm looking at the New Lyman "Idea Model" Sharps in .22 Hornet and their made by Armi Sport.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/idealsharps.php

Duke0313 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2011, 08:02:35 PM »

Pics???

Tommie D · « **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2011, 07:37:19 PM »

I got a email back from Lyman yesterday, confirming the 1 in 16 twist for the Hornet. I was hoping for a 1 in 12 twist since they listed them with "Lyman Specification Bore Dimensions"

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2011, 04:26:30 AM »

With that twist you are pretty much limited to max 45gr. bullets, even a pointy 50 might not stabilize.

Tommie D · « **Reply #25 on:** January 09, 2011, 09:16:36 AM »

Yes that's why I have a .22 Hornet H&R Handi-Rifle on order. 1:9 twist.
Now if someone would make a Mini-Sharps in .22 Hornet with the perfect 1:13 twist, then I would buy one.

mattbowen · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2011, 02:07:56 AM »

TommieD;

Nice looking Sharps

Duke0313 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2011, 12:36:07 AM »

That shore am purdy, paw!

NickSS · « **Reply #28 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:43:17 PM »

I wrote to Pedersoli about what their sharps rifles are proofed at and they told me that they are proofed by Italian Law at the CIP (Sammi) Standard pressure for the 45-70. This pressure is 27,500 PSI and that is all they warrent their rifles for. For cartridges that have no CIP (Sammi) Standards Like the 45-120 they warrent them for 25,000 psi and only recommend black powder or black powder substitutes. As Armi Sport operates in Italy under the same laws as Pedersoli does I would anticipate that their rifles are proof tested at the same levels in the Italian Government run Proof house. This pressure is the same maximum pressure to which Ammo is loaded by factories in the US and Europe.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 27, 2011, 01:23:00 PM »

I admit that I havent checked every European loaded cartridge data against American, but it has been 'accepted' for some years that Euro stuff has been, and may still be, for some cartridges, hotter than loaded here. We also have the issue of PSI does not correlate to CUP exactly.
So, If you use Level I loads only in the Italian made clones I think you will be fine. Level II may be not about to hatch the gun right off, but may streach the block and frame over time.
If you want to shoot Level III buy a Ruger No.1 or Dakota, etc.