Shot My BC 45-70 w/handloads

[David I.]

I shot my new BC 45-70 today with my handloads. Everything on my gun seems fine, especially after my mods. Anyway, I noticed one thing regarding my handloads that is probably OK but I'd like to make sure. I'm loading 405gr hard cast using 30gr of 4198. I'm noticing quite a bit of gas/powder residue blow back on the outside of the cases( approx. 1/3 of the way back ). My barrel slugs just about .458 at muzzle, I did not slug near chamber yet. My 405gr hard cast bullets are .459". This bullet is just slightly engraving the rifling, approx. .005". I'm wondering if the amount of blow back I'm noticing is due to a combination of the .459" bullet along with it slightly engraving the rifling. Is what I'm seeing normal for the conditions I've stated and what I'm using? I'm not new to reloading but I am new to the 45-70. Anyone else out there shooting similar loads that slightly engrave rifling? How much gas/powder residue blow back should I be seeing?

[quickdtoo]

Sounds like too light a load, the Lyman 48th shows a start load of 34gr IMR3031 31.5gr IMR4198 for a 405gr cast, you might try crimping if you're intent on using that load. 

Tim

[Big Blue]

Are you using H-4198 or IMR-4198? Either way your at the lower end of Trapdoor load levels. Try bumping it up a bit, lower end starting loads for Level 2 45/70 data would have you using 36.5gr. of IMR-4198 with a cast 405gr. bullet to the max. load of 40.5gr. My favorite powders for the 45/70 are IMR-3031 and RL-7. I also like to use Lee's factory crimp die with the 45/70.
Don

[David I.]

Thanks Tim and Don for the info. I got this load from Hodgdon loading table for trap doors, yes it is a starting load and it is IMR4198. I will bump it up a bit and see what I get. I know I can go much more if I want to but I was trying to get away with a mild load if I could for a little less powder usage and less recoil. Maybe it won't take much more powder, maybe 31.5 or so will do it, I don't know.....time will tell. I am crimping Tim, even though I know I don't have to. What would be a normal amount of residue blow back to see, just a little if any? I'm really not used to seeing hardly any with other calibers and loads. If I have to end up bumping up the powder quite a bit I will, but of course I will do it in small increases. I purchased 1 lb. of IMR4198 because my research has shown many people are happy with it for their 45-70, uses less per round than 3031 for similar fps, and shoots a little cleaner than 3031. Maybe I'll like it, maybe I won't, at any rate I will be using the 1 lb. I bought. Thanks again guys for the info.

[NickSS]

You do not mention if the brass is new or been reloaded several times.  I have found that when I start seeing blowback in a 45-70 it's generally due to the brass being stiff and the load being light.  Most of my loads I shoot are at or near black powder velocities and low pressure.  So I have found that when I see some blowback it's time to anneal the brass again.  This lets the brass expand quicker at low pressures and seal the bore.

[jeepmann1948]

If you want to use the load you tested try annealing the cases. There is a lot of info on the net about different ways to do it. I use the old method of a propane torch and a cake pan with water in it. In A darkened room (so you can see the color ) heat JUST the tops of the case (that are standing in the cake pan) till it turns a dull red the push it into the water to quench it.Annealing will also make the case last at lot longer. Just remember not to heat any further down than1/3 of the case.
Good Luck

[David I.]

I'm using brand new Starline brass which I shouldn't have to anneal, atleast I hope not! Just so I know, what are the ramifications of too much blowback besides possible loss of some fps and accuracy? Are there any safety issues I should be aware of? As long as the bullet is exiting the barrel is there anything else I should be concerned about with this blowback? I of course don't like it and want to eliminate it and will be increasing the powder amount as I stated earlier, hoping that will eliminate the blowback.

[dangerranger]

the blow back is hot gas that could burn you, or more likely blow soot into your eye.the shape of the handi breech is probably deflecting most of it tho. the most likely problem will be soot buildup in the chamber tho. DR

[David I.]

Thanks DR, appreciate it.

[David I.]

I need to make a couple comments: First of all, I need to get my hands on a Lyman loading manual with cast bullet listings. I am intending to bump up my IMR4198 loads and hopefully that will take care of the blowback problem. What I don't understand is why are these light loads listed by various companies if they have a good potential to create this kind of blowback with 4198? I've even seen some listings for less than 30gr with 405gr cast bullet! I realize there are "variables" involved here, which also makes me wonder if I'm doing something else wrong or one of the variables is coming into play. To repeat myself: I'm using brand new Starline brass, 405gr hard cast bullet with 30gr IMR4198 and Rem. 9 1/2 large rifle primer. I have the bullet seated as deep as I can in order to still crimp in the crimp groove (towards the very top) and the bullet engraves the rifling about .005". The COL is 2.510". Another question I have is regarding any Dacron filler mtl; should I be using any? The Hodgdon loading data I used made no mention of it. I would think these light loads that are listed should work fine without any major blowback.....or is my thinking flawed?  P.S  I forgot to repeat the fact that my hard cast bullet is .459" and my barrel muzzle slugs right about at .458", I did not slug towards the chamber end.

[Badnews Bob]

I wouldn't worry to much about the soot a lot of my light plinker loads do this and it hurts nothing. But I do think they're are better powders for light loads such as trailboss. Also I never use fillers I have never heard anything good about doing so, Just my opinion, If you need filler with a certain powder change powders to one that don't need fillers.  They're are many options for the .45-70.

[David I.]

Thanks Bob for the reply. I am planning on uping the charge as I said. So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the light loads listed using 4198 that create the blowback condition is normal for that powder and not a major concern. I'm hoping that something between 32gr and 36.5gr will do away with most of the blowback....time will tell. I wonder if light loads of 3031 or 5744 cause the approx. same amount of blowback? If you read this Quick (Tim), haven't you used 5744 or am I mistaken? If you have, did you ever try lighter loads?

[quickdtoo]

5744 works excellent in the 45-120, haven't used it in the 45-70 tho,  but the Lyman 48th lists it for the 405gr cast, 26gr start in their trapdoor loads, all the way up to 39gr in the Ruger data which they limit to 40kcup which is the same pressure limit for levergun data by Hodgdon and Hornady. AA lists similar data.

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20Guide%20v3.3%20version.pdf

[OSOK]

I use 5744 with my 450 gr. cast bullets and love it. It is a bulky powder, so you aren't going to get as many rounds per pound. I'm running 30 grains, upper end trapdoor/low end Marlin. Nice thump to the recoil, but not bad, seems like less than a 20 ga. handi. Only bad thing I can say is there a bit of un-burnt powder in the barrel, but that may be because my loads aren't crimped.

[David I.]

Thanks Tim and OSOK for the info, it is appreciated. I have to use my 4198 right now, but I may switch powders in the future. I've read a lot of good things about 4198 in the 45-70, but maybe that was using stouter loads or the people didn't care if they got some blowback with lighter loads...I don't know. I was just wondering if anyone else notices some blowback with 4198 in light loads or any other powder for that matter. I am normally going to be shooting fairly light to medium loads and I'd prefer to have as little blowback as possible. I know Badnews Bob notices some blowback with his light plinking loads but he didn't say what powder he was using., but he does mention Trailboss would be better for light loads. I do NOT want to use a powder that requires any fillers, I just wanted to make sure that 4198 didn't need any with light loads. Ultimately, I would like to find a powder that I can use for light and moderate loads, but it has to be one that won't create a lot of blowback with light loads. My moderate loads will be used for longer distance target shooting and hunting. To repeat myself: If at all possible I would prefer to stick with one powder that can do both light and moderate loads well with very little blowback in light loads.

[Badnews Bob]

The blow by problem has something to do with the burn rate of powder, A faster burning powder has more of a pressure spike sooner than a slower burning powder. This pressure spike causes the cases to expand faster and seal against the chamber wall. A larger load of slower powder should do the same.

Just guessing here, But I'd say the soot marks don't come more than a third of the way back on the case.


 That was explained to me ,and I have found it to be true, Is a sign of light loads and not a big concern.

[Chas.]

I don't understand your focusing on the sooty cases.  You've been told it's normal.  I'd be more concerned with accuracy of a particular load.  Screw the soot, it'll come off.  If you go up in powder charge, you may have to go to gas-checks also.  For light loads, you might try 25gr of 2400.  Many of the levergunners use this for plinking, as do I.  And it's cheap.  However you'll end up with sooty cases.

[David I.]

Thanks Bob, appreciate the info. You are correct regarding the distance of blowback....in my first post opening this thread I noted the blowback I'm encountering is approx. 1/3 of the way back on the case. Maybe I won't have to increase the 4198 charge a whole lot to notice some less blowback....time will tell. At any rate, atleast I won't worry about it so much, but I would prefer to atleast lessen it as much as I can., if anything it will keep my chamber and cases cleaner. Unfortunately I have an eye for detail along with a worrisome nature which can sometimes cause me trouble! But, when it comes to guns I believe in being "safe" rather than "sorry". I don't expect perfection because I've learned over the years there is no such thing....but I do strive for excellence at whatever I do and have learned where to draw the line. Over the years I have gotten the reputation for excellent work with realistic expectations of my abilities and the equipment I work on. As an example, I performed some mods on my BC that weren't entirely necessary but I wanted to because I knew it could be better and would only make the gun shoot just that much better besides making me happier with the gun. I also somewhat enjoyed doing the mods but I did feel some of them were caused by the manf. slapping the gun out a little too quickly. I realize the gun wasn't terribly expensive, but one of the "errors" was inexcusable in my opinion...it actually should have never made it out of the plant. My background includes manufacturing, QC, electro/mech tech, customer service, middle management, small business owner which involved wearing many "hats"! Anyway, enough about me, I do tend to go on too much sometimes. Thanks again for the help.

[David I.]

Thanks for the tactful input Chas. It's OK if you don't understand or agree with my reasons...you don't have to.

[quickdtoo]

Lots of proven low velocity data is available at GMDR. 

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[David I.]

Thanks for the very useful info Tim, as usual you are a wealth of information and it's greatly appreciated.

[jim36]

I was looking for a nice low velocity round, so I loaded up a few rounds using 28.5 gr of H4198 and 405 cast bullets. Wow, what a good shooting mixture. I too, had the black residue on almost one third of the way back on the case. This load turned out to be quite acurate using open sights.
From the above mentioned post, I guess there is nothing to worry about.If I am wrong, let me know. I guess a little chamber cleaning and longer in the vibrator should do the trick. In my other 45 70 I use 300 gr Sierra jktd FNHP under 58 gr of Varget. This is another good load, without any residue on the case. These 45 70 are my favorite of all the Handies.
                                           Jim   <><   <><   <><

[rsl]

With 405 gr bullet try 30 gr of 3031.. I use 35 and a 300 grain lead bullet and have a lot of fun with little recoil and very accurate..

[Datil]

 I am using 36.0 grain IMR 4198 w/ 350 graun jacket bullets
 in my 45-70. Still in the trap door loadings. Good luck Marv.

[David I.]

 Thanks to jim36, rsl, and Datil for your observations and comments.....it's all very appreciated. For now until I run low on 4198 I will be working my way up slightly from 30gr in small increments to approx. 35gr and taking note of any blowback changes and/or accuracy differences. In the future I may try 5744 or 3031 or Varget , not sure yet...time will tell. Who knows, maybe I'll end up sticking with 4198, but chances are real good I'll probably want to try some other powders just to see what I (and my gun) likes best.