Why is it so hard?????

[1911crazy]

Why is it so hard to manufacture a brand new right out of the box functioning 1911??  I think its an act of the quality control not inspecting the parts to be with in tolarence.  If it needs a break in time the parts really aren't fitted properly so its up to us to wear them in.  Thus called a break in time.  Now if we take off the finish on the rails and polish them would that help?  I do remove the finish on the feed ramp and polish them anyway on every 1911 wether its new or not.  Now if it doesn't function we then need to tune the extractor and change the mag out.  Now did i miss anything else we can do to make it function properly?

I was told by one of my buddy's, a nam vet who was a grunt who went into caves with a 1911 and he told me a 1911 has to have that rattle for it to be a good one when you shake it.  Does it being loose on the slide and frame fit mean its a good reliable and dependable 1911?

Lets get into the nitty/gritty on the 1911 to how to make it function perfectly plus make it accurate too.  Never mind asking which one to buy over and over, anyhoo we may get a bad one either way out of any manufacturer.  I say lets have a plan inplace on how to make it right on a step by step process ahead of time.  I also say get it right by using ball ammo first.  Once its right with ball ammo after 250 to 500rds then your ready to try hollow points or swc ammo.  Once i'm confident the 1911 is reliable and flawless after 250 to 500rds its ready to carry (CCW).  Lets face it its a possible death sentence if your carrying a 1911 that stove pipes or jamms.

So what are your suggestions on making it right right out of the box what can be done to tweek it in?

[Bigeasy]

I don't know.  I have owned hundreds of guns of various make and model, and fired hundreds more, and most all have been reasonably accurate and reliable.  Maybe a small handful that had meaningful problems that should have been caught at the factory.  A few that have broken or needed new parts, mostly because of heavy use.  I keep reading these post about guys who experience serious problems / failures with about every gun they buy.  Can't figure it out....

Larry

[doc-and]

Back in "73" I bought a new Colt Combat Commander. Took it to the range to see how it functioned, had ball ammo (factory not reloads), and the dang thing would not hit the target @ 25yds, we're talking a 3ft x 3ft piece of paper. Gun functioned properly no jams or failure to feeds, etc. Just would not hit the target.  Now I own 3 other Colts that are very accurate, of course I've sunk a lot of $$$ into them to get them where I wanted. And by the way they do not rattle

Here's my current Combat Commander


Here's my comp gun which started out as a Gold Cup


My standard Gold Cup is at the smith for a tune up

All three guns were built by the same smith, all have identical feel and triggers that are fairly close in weight of pull.

docand

[zoner]

Back in the 80's i picked up a 70 Series MK IV Colt with only about 400 rds thru it(for $300 cash . Wanted to shoot 200 SWC lead bullets at paper so had it ramped and throated and it is utterly reliable with SWC and RN bullets. I had the trigger set up at 4lbs pull. For accuracy I had a oversize barrel bushing fitted to my barrel and slide. When this is properly done you need a bushing wrench to remove the barrel bushing.I paid a little money for these mods, but it's 2010 and this pistol is just as reliable and accurate as when i had the work done, 25 yrs later. Everybody wants to buy an out of the box pistol that functions perfectly and i wish you all the luck in doing so, but i sure don't regret spending the money i spent on mine. Good sights,a decent trigger,properly tuned and fitted extractor and ejector, and matching up the recoil spring power with the ammo you plan on using will take you a long ways......good shootin

[Savage]

My experiences have been like those of Bigeasy. Of the 14 I can account for, (May have missed one or two) the 1911s I have owned have been largely reliable and accurate. Assuming good ammo and magazines. (Same is true for any pistol)  I still own six 1911s, from 3" to 5". They feed anything I put in them. I really don't know where all these unreliable pistols are. They are certainly not in evidence at the matches I attend. I can't figure it out either, Larry.
Savage

[Mike in Virginia]

Because we lose the 1911 so much, we don't like to admit that they are have an inherent design defect, that must be shot out or worked on to fix.  MOST new 1911s fail.  It's not just my experience, or just yours, but 1911 shooters in general know that to be true.  A full-size G.I. as put into service didn't fail, but it was horribly inaccurate, which was okay, because it didn't need to be.

Now, we expect too much from production 1911s, but they still they sell like crazy.  Everytime someone spends $800 - $1000 for one, they ride home with it on the seat beside them just knowing it will work perfectly with the first clip and every clip, only to find out it won't work reliably with any clip. IMO, we should accept and admit that they must have a little play in the action, and thus shoot groups less tight than a much cheaper revolver. 

That sounds like I don't care for 1911s, but I do.  It is my favorite handgun design.  I don't think you can seriously ask where are all these jamming 1911s.  They're in our hands, in our cars, in your safe, at the dealers.  If you don't break 'em in or have a Smith fix it, your new 1911 will likely FTF or FTE.

[Mike in Virginia]

Oops. That 3rd word should be "love," not "lose."

One more thing.  If 1911crazy is incorrect with his impressions of 1911s, why is it we hear the same complaint all the time from every corner of the handgunning industry.  If someone has a perfectly functioning 1911, it's something to tell others about. "Reliable" is the strongest word the manufacturers of 1911s can use to advertise. 

[Savage]

Wow, Mike! Where do you get this stuff? Sure there are examples of 1911s, (and any other platform you'd like to name), that have problems. Anything made by man can and will fail on occasion. But to make such an unenlightened statement that MOST new 1911s fail goes against my experience in 50+ years of owning, shooting, and being in the company of hundreds of other shooters so armed. I admit to being a fan of the 1911, but I'm most partial to the CZ platform. Glocks are what I shoot most in action pistol competition, and I love my Sigs and Hi Powers. I have had or seen failures with any platform you care to name, revolvers included. It's my position, based on my experience and observations, that a properly constructed and maintained 1911, will run with any of the others in competent hands. I have a half dozen examples in the safe at this moment.
Savage

[Mike in Virginia]

Savage - I didn't mean to offend.  My apology.  However, I think "unenlightened" is a bit harsh for someone whose enlightenment is unknown to you.  I'm 62.  I grew up with 1911s.  In the military, the armory furnished "accurized" guns to those who had already qualified as expert.  Back then, competition meant standing at 90 degrees to the target, and firing with one hand (slow, and fast) at a bullseye target at 25 and 50 yards.  The accurized gun they gave me rattled when you shook it.  It never failed, but neither was it accurate; it was just a lot more accurate than the regular issue, which rattled even more.  Those guns were what the 1911 was desgined to be.

Since then, commercial guns have come a long way, but I stand by what I said in my previous post. I've owned and fired enough to know that "tight" means an eventual if not regular failure. Of all the 1911's I've owned, I've had only one that never failed, not once, not even right out of the box.  It was a '70 series Colt. 

Of all the big bore revolvers I've had, never have I had a failure. 

Of all the Sigs I've had, never have I had a failure. 

Of all the double-action Smiths I've had, never have I had a failure.

For those who imagine that 1911s enjoy that kind of reliability, I say you are lying to yourself.  Why else is "reliability" such an important byword for 1911s?  It's because they have such a reputation of failing.

Not all of them, of course. But many, many have jammed, and the failure ratio of 1911s to any other expensive pistol is tremedous.   

Perhaps this is the wrong forum to make such statements.  It's like promoting compound bows on a recurve forum. But as 1911 proponents, for people who would advance its advantages, we ought to be able to admit the plain truth that is so obvious to everyone else.   

[Savage]

Mike,
Not offended. Perhaps "Unenlightened" is a bit harsh given that I don't know you. I'm 69 with 7 yrs military and retired LEO. My first experience with 1911s was with my father's and my uncle's pistols brought back from the war. Don't recall having an issue with either. My experiences in the military with the 1911s taught me that by far the majority of function problems could be traced to faulty magazines. If you've ever handled a Les Baer or an Ed Brown, you know that they are extremely tight, yet the slide moves on the frame like it was on ball bearings. Both are as reliable as a mechanical thing can be. Even the Kimbers I own/have owned have been well fitted and reliable. As mentioned earlier I have witnessed or experienced malfunctions with most any pistol you'd see in a police holster. Even revolvers. Having carried a couple of 1911s as duty weapons, I can tell you they had to work. I maintain that by far, most do. The 1911 is the platform of choice for the majority of USPSA and IDPA/ESP shooters. If they didn't work, that would not be the case. The same is true for a growing number of SWAT and Special Team units. I'm not here to defend the platform, just pointing out the error of your statement that MOST do not function "First clip, or any clip" . Now that's the plain truth.
Savage 

[Mike in Virginia]

Savage, you said "The 1911 is the platform of choice for the majority of USPSA and IDPA/ESP shooters. If they didn't work, that would not be the case." 

You may have missed my point, which is that production out of the box 1911s do not work, not reliably.  The competition guns you mention work because they've been "fixed."  The specific high dollar Les Bauer and Ed Brown guns you mentioned are custom 1911s, and few shooters can afford that kind of silky reliability, whereas they can buy perfect reliability in other acp's, such as a Sig or a revolver. 

The 1911 platform is the one of choice for serious competition because nothing else handles like a 1911.  I love them, own them, shoot them, but I am not ignorant of their failings. I can't believe that you are.

Even though I have 36 years of military and LE experience, if you are 69 years of age, I bend to accumulated wisdom.  Yet, I'd like your honest opinon on why reliability is a questionable factor with 1911s.  Why do people have the opinion that a 1911 that doesn't occassionally fail, is a fluke? To say that Springfields and Kimbers and Colts don't often jam out of the box, even after break in, is to announce that your head is in the sand. 

 All guns can fail, you say.  Of course they can.  But 1911s actually do jam far more frequently than other styles, unless they're improved from what factories spit out.  That's the whole question of this thread. How hard can it be to produce an accurate and functional 1911?  I say it's impossible for the companies I've named to do so on a continuing basis.  Some of those guns work all the time, some don't.  It's a fact you won't admit, I think.   Submitted with respect. Thanks for your service.   

[Bigeasy]

Yep, just like all Fords have square tires, all commercial 1911's are flawed.  I guess that's why they sell by the millions, since, well, 1911.  People just have not caught on yet..

Because the design is so popular, there is a thriving aftermarket. But,  Don't make the mistake of confusing "fixing" with "modifying" a gun.  You may prefer your brass in a neat pile 2 foot to the right, and one step behind you.  That's fine, and if you want a $100 gunsmith bill to make it happen - fine.  But if the gun ejects every time you fire it, then it is working as intended.  Yea, that expensive custom 2lbs trigger is nice, but if the factory 5lbs trigger goes bang each time you pull it, then it's working as designed.   All holes touching at 25 yards is great, but if you are shooting a fist sized group, then the gun is shooting as intended.

Mike, no product, be it a gun, a car, or a toaster, stays in production long if its design is fundamentally flawed, especially with something as personal as a handgun.  If 1911's, on the whole, were nearly as bad as you state, they, along with the Glock, would not be the biggest selling auto pistol platform today.  Common sense.

Larry

[Savage]

Mike,
You are entitled to your opinion, which defies logic, and has no basis in fact. Don't have the numbers at the moment, but the 1911 design is likely at or near the top of the most copied in the world. Not likely to be the case if your statement were true. I'm not trying to change your mind with logic, as that would surely be a lost cause. Take care, and avoid those problematic pistols!
Savage 

[Mike in Virginia]

No answer as yet, sir. 

[Mike in Virginia]

And why is the "1911 failures" thread so popular?  Why discuss if it's a non-issue? 

[1911crazy]

I think this is a very big issue and were not seeing the total amount of failures that are unreported.  Were missing the non posters.  I think the number of failures are much more than we thing.  We only have a few who will talk up giving us a hint of the higher numbers were missing.  I've had 3 bad 1911 right off the bat.  Now if my new G.I. Springer cycles ok thats a 50/50 % of getting a good 1911 or not.  This is my experience and my numbers which are facts. I've had 3 bad ones and i have 3 good ones.

Can we list the failures one by one by posting the problem and the fix.  I would like to see the failures listed by the most numbers of one problem first.  I'm going to guess at this then you guys can fix my list.  From what i'm hearing and reading;
Failures with 1911's (out of the box new)......................Fix............................

#1 stovepipes/jams...................................Get an after market quality mag

#2 extractor causing jams..........................Tune and fit the extractor

#3  Its your turn now.....

I just would like to clear up some of the 1911 failures for all of us to learn what to address to repair the problem.  I would rather do it myself to learn all about the 1911's too.

Both my new AO and my used norc haven't jammed yet for over 500rds+ thru each pistol.  I'm shooting 45acp ball ammo. Thats what there designed to feed. I think the first problems we can see is not using the proper bullet that the pistol was manufactured for.  If it won't feed swc or HP's  its not the manufacturers or the guns fault if it feeds the ball ammo ok.

Please lets respect all the others opinions too.  I have had problem 1911's in the past that cost me lots of $$ when i dumped them.  (life before the internet)  Now i wished i would of kept them.

[Mnswede]

Failure rate threads would be more common to the 1911 pistol since many companies build this pistol, and I would think that more 1911 pistols are built/have been built than other pistols types.  Also, the one thread that I see the alot of when it comes to the 1911 pistol is how cheap of a pistol can I buy because I don't want to spend alot of money.

Government 1911's were sold cheap after the war but I don't want to pay the bill for a original Govt 1911 now.  If I want a 1911 in the $300 range that I see people looking for, they may or may not get what they are looking for in quality or funcunality.  I think that the price range of $500 to $800 gets you into a better functioning and quality 1911 pistol out of the box.  The pistol could still have issues that need tweaking, but not like some of the real cheap pistols could.

Several years ago, I bought a Hi Standard Crusader Compact for around $350 tax and all.  I only polished the ramp and no it doesnt rattle and shake.  The only rounds that I hand load that this pistol doesn't feed consistantly, are 200gr SWC.  I have read posts from others that Hi Standard pistols aren't well made.  For a carry pistol it is very heavy, exspecially when compared to my Colt Combat Commander, and Para Ordnance 1911 LTC, and no they don't rattle and shake either.  They both don't like to function flawlessly with 200 SWC either.

A final example that I can think of although it doesn't involve 1911's is, a comparison with Springfield Armory and Fed Ord M1A's.  When I decided to buy a M1A, I though that dropping $1200 on Springfield was to much, so I found a new Fed Ord for $750.  This rifle was not upgraded nor did a Gunsmith mess with it.  A friend had bought a SA M1A in early 1980's and he had it gone over by a Gunsmith for Competition shooting he did.  We both went out to the range to shoot and right off my friend noted that his SA rifle threw the brass around the area, and mine just plopped them next to the rifle in a small pile.  Another friend shot both rifles and mine shot a better group than the SA.  The SA had a custom heavy barrel and mine had a standard Military barrel.  Now look at the threads of Fed Ord and you will pretty much say that they are junk, exspecially when production came to an end.  I think I lucked out with the rifle, exspecially when reading the threads of Fed Ord M1A's owners.

[mcwoodduck]

Many guns require a break in.
Benelli says 50 rounds on their auto loaders.  And no kidding after the 51St.  the thing has run flawless.
The 1911 just needs a little final fire polish.

[williamlayton]

In order to be competitive in the market place, cookie cutting parts and assembly line production is used.
This generally leads to a fair and reliable shooter.
Fair an reliable are terms that mean one thing to one and an entirely different thing too others--
I am on the extreme edge of fair and reliable.
A weapon of the class of semi-custom is a fair and reliable rosco to me---and I am not sticking my nose in the air--I am just too anal, IMO.
The reasons I choose not to go too the usual semi-custom Baer's, Wilsons, kinghthawk's is because I prefer my upgrades too be of my choosing.
I am not too anal about finishes and tightness or even dehorning and such.
I am into parts and functional reliability more than cosmetics.
Doesn't mean I like ugly though.
The Old Norinco and most of my others shot relaibly from the get and functioned well---I just want some other parts and tweaking to make it just a little bit better, rliable over a long haul, parts that are just better and have better tolerances, installed correctly and tweaked. GOOD SIGHTS-FIXED AND FITTED TOO SHOOT POINT OF AIM--if I ever get it on point is another story.
Some folks will accept a 500 round break-in as being proof. I won't.
What is a failure?
Not shooting to point of aim?
A sticky trigger?
A thumb safety that needs tweaking or an ejector or a port needing lowering?
How about a weak spring--too strong a spring, a poor Barrel-bushing?
These are failures to me, even thought the gun shoots.
Blessings

[Mike in Virginia]

I feel like I've been too aggressive in my statements on this thread, especially to Savage.  We all have opinions based on experience and preference.  To disagree with someone else's view is to step on his opinion, which is disrespectful.  I was wrong in that regard.  I feel especially bad for any disrespect to Savage, a man who served military and law enforcement for so many years.  Anyone who puts his life out front for the sake of others is my friend.  No disagreement over a particular firearm's pros and cons is worth hard feelings.  My sincere apology.  May we all (especially myself) remember that what we say on the Internet should be no stronger than what we would say in person.   
 

[williamlayton]

Mike
That was well put and, IMO, squares you with all.
It was a manly way of doing your part.
Apology is accepted.
Blessings
Bill

[Savage]

Mike,
I didn't take anything you said as disrespectful. We are all allowed to express our points of view here, and we can't always agree. That's ok by me. Certainly no hard feelings here. If I offended you or anyone else in any way, I too apologize. Looking forward to your future contributions here. Stay safe!
Savage

[rzwieg]

I have a Series 80 Colt that gave me trouble with all mags and ball ammo. An 18# recoil spring replacing the factory one cured that.

Maybe what 1911 fans are trying to do is make it something it's not? We want it to drive tacks and function/feed flawlessly with hollow points? It takes money and a darn good smith to get that from what I've seen. It was developed as a side arm: a defensive handgun for shooting accross the room as it were. Handguns are a weapon you use to get to a long gun, as the late Jeff Cooper would say.

The 1911 design fits my hand better than any other. My 1911s may not feed HP rounds like my XD 45 or win bullseye matches but I'd trust my life to them at ranges that any personal anti personel encounter would occur. That's what handguns are for.

Just my 2 cents.

[jimster]

If a 1911 is built to specs, it will run. Perhaps if more manufactures built them to specs you would hear less about problems.  I only have experience with 4 1911's new in the box, 3 were Colts, 1 was Springfield, I was lucky enough that all were built to specs, they all worked out of the box.  Made the Springfield better by tweaking it and putting in some parts I wanted instead of theirs, but it still functioned with their parts.  Had a friend who picked up a 1911 cheap because the guy said he could not get a full mag through the pistol.  We took it apart and cleaned it and oiled it, thing was dry as a bone and dirty, set aside the stk magazine and used a couple of mine, put in all new springs.  We could not get it to fail, it was a good deal for my friend and also inspired us to look for more "good deals".

I don't believe in the 500 rds break in, I buy one of these all I will do is mess with the magazine, maybe the recoil spring, check extractor tension...after that if it would not run perfect I would send it back if it were me.  Let the factory put their 500 rds through it, I'm saving my ammo for when it actually works.  It would be nice if no manufacturer would put a defensive pistol out the door that did not run, but as already mentioned, they turn them out fast and not all get looked at close enough.  The 1911 I carry will shoot no matter how you hold it, limp wrist, tight, doesn't matter, it just shoots.  Probably hear about more of them that don't work than do work,  if you stop and think about it, it's still the most manufactured pistol out there, everyone makes a 1911, including custom ones.  Custom ones are nice because they can build them tighter, but they make sure everything works with tight specs too, that is why they are custom. 

If they rattle a little I don't mind too much, long as the barrel locks up in the slide nice when it's in battery, it will shoot well.  I don't know how the 1911 got such a bad rap on reliablity with all the 1911's out there used in competition, but I suspect some of the problems people have could be easily fixed for not much money. I do think the people who use 1911's are very committed to knowing how they work and the proper maint. on them,  if your not one of those you might get very frustrated if your having failures when all it might be is a magazine problem or extractor problem.  Might be something worse too...it happens sometimes. 

Jim

[SHOOTALL]

I'm with Bigeasy on this one , Had a "put togather" gun the main spring broke . Had a modifyed officers gun that didn't like HP ammo . the rest have been really good , Just about all stoppages could be traced to limp wrist , bad reloads or bad mags.

[1911crazy]

I don't believe in break in time either.  But for me to trust a 1911 for CCW i have to have 500rds thru it flawlessly then i can trust it to be good.  At any point if your life is on the line you can't afford a stovepipe or jam in a split second of saving your or your family member in time of danger.  To me if its been flawless for 500rds+ its ok to carry it.  My new Auto Ordnance 1911a1 is at this point right now. 
Now i'm starting to work on my series 90 springfield that was stove piping 1 rd per mag, every mag.  Its been in the box for a longtime.  I have a new Chip mag and i stoned the sharp edges off the extractor so its pretty much good to go. I'm using wolf ball ammo. 

[1911crazy]

I'm doing a double reply so this question gets read. Were looking for reliability and dependability and in the end its accuracy thats going to be next.

How about the accuracy on a new right out of the box bone stock 1911???
I feel if i can hit within a 10" to 12" circle without paying too much attention to my aim or being serious about it, i think i'm doing really good on a "quick shot" at 25yds. Now if i take my time to aim and watch my breathing i can get it down to 5" to 7" at 25yds using the same wold ball ammo.  Remember using a out of the box untouched 1911.

How about the accuracy on a reworked 1911?
My norinco has the national match barrel bushing which holds the barrel firmly in full battery.  It shoots one clover leaf per mag no matter who shoots it, its that good.  Remember my slide is still really loose too.  I believe by tightening up the frame rails a tad it will tighten up my groups even more.  At the sametime i don't want the frame rails too tight.

[SHOOTALL]

I do believe in break in . No matter what machine you pick if metal moves aginst metal it wears "in" . then wears out with use. You can polish and fit all you want and get real close but that movement togather finishes the job. A trigger job is mostly wearing the parts with file and stone. Yes some angles are changes but the stone and file gives the smoothness .

[mcwoodduck]

I do believe in break in . No matter what machine you pick if metal moves aginst metal it wears "in" . then wears out with use. You can polish and fit all you want and get real close but that movement togather finishes the job. A trigger job is mostly wearing the parts with file and stone. Yes some angles are changes but the stone and file gives the smoothness .

I do too.
When I bought my "carry" gun I asked the gun shop owner if I could leave it with him on the rental shelf for a month.  To get other people to send ammo though it at no cost to me.  He said no.  So I then bought 200 or so rounds of ammo and let everyone in the range shoot it.  I was not the first person to shoot the new gun.  I did not want to be frustrated or doubt the gun later if it had a hard break in period.  I would bring it to the range with a box of 50 let every one shoot it, take it home and clean it and bring it back the next week for another session.
After that 200 rounds were gone I bought another 200 and on top of that I purchased some HP defense stuff.  Enough for the 2 mags and one to shoot through the gun to see if they will work in it.
During the first 200 there were some snags not sure if they were the gun or the shooter.  
With other eastern European copies we would take the gun apart fill it with Flitz and put a cleaning towel on my lap and manually cycle the gun while watching TV till the blue Flitz turned black.  Then would break it down clean refill and repeat for about two nights worth of TV.

During my 200 rounds I do not remember a snag and the HP stuff worked fine.

[jimster]

I think it is a real good idea to shoot a 1911 a lot to make sure it is reliable and have the parts settle in, but I still will never agree with having to put 500 rds through it BEFORE it will even function.  It should at least function out of the box if things are put together right and to specs.  I also do not buy into the limp wristing thing, but only because I know for a fact there are 1911's out there that will function no matter how you hold them, which means to me, they all could if they were all set up the same.  I would hate to be in a bad way where I had very little strength, and then have a 911 that would not go off because I was not holding it just right.  I might not be ABLE to hold it just right.  Mine works holding it just tight enough to keep it from flying out of my hand, I have messed around with that one.  I also think if someone has to use a stronger recoil spring to fix a problem, the problem is still there, it may be covered up. 

I like the idea of shooting a new 1911 a whole bunch to get to know it well, but I just can't stand it when I'm in a gun shop and I hear the guy behind the counter tell someone you have to put at least 500 rds through it before it will start working properly.  It should already work as far as feeding and ejecting.
I have no problem tweaking a 1911 after shooting it a lot and making improvements I want, maybe the brass is not ejecting where I want it, maybe I like the thick small radius fps, something like that, but I fully expect any firearm to function out of the box after paying for it.  I don't think that is asking too much for what things cost these days, or asking too much from a 1911 defensive pistol.  If I could not figure out in a hurry why a new pistol will not function, and if it's not a simple inexpensive fix, it's going back to where it came from, I have no problem with them putting 500 rds through it while testing it.  I have been lucky so far, but only 4 new 1911's in the box during my life might not be a good test of what is out there either.