Author Topic: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930  (Read 2328 times)

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Offline Gatofeo

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Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« on: March 13, 2010, 01:31:24 PM »
I have a complete set of American Rifleman magazines dating from 1929 to the latest issue, about 900 issues. Reading these old issues often reveals something interesting.
The Dope Bag column of the May 1930 issue (p. 41) caught my eye : LOADS FOR A CAP-AND-BALL.
A reader, J.F.D., wrote to ask what loads are suggested for a Remington .44 cap and ball revolver. Remember, this is for an original Remington; reproductions were not produced until nearly 40 years later.
Major Julian S. Hatcher responded to J.F.D. with responses that remain interesting 80 years after they were published. Among the most interesting points:

This marks the earliest record I’ve encountered where a greased, felt wad was suggested for use between the ball and powder of a cap and ball revolver. Prior to this 1930 report, the earliest reference I’ve found was Elmer Keith’s 1955 book, “Sixguns.”
Born in 1899, Keith was 13 when Civil War veterans showed him how to load his original Colt 1851 Navy. To my knowledge, Keith never said where he learned to use a greased felt wad.

 The lubricant that Hatcher suggests is interesting: Vaseline and paraffin or beeswax. Today’s experienced black powder shooters prefer natural greases and oils, rather than those based on petroleum. Experience has shown that petroleum lubricants, when used with black powder, often produce a hard, tarry fouling. Natural greases and oils keep fouling soft and easily removed by each shot, or with a damp patch.

King’s Semi-Smokeless powder is mentioned and recommended. It was once popular for old shotguns and target rifles originally designed for black powder. King’s Semi-Smokeless was made to measure in the same volume as black powder, and produce equal pressures, but with less smoke and fouling. It was discontinued about 1936, probably because America was swinging into pre-World War II production and the older, black powder guns had fallen out of favor.
Today, there is no smokeless powder safe to use in a cap and ball revolver, even revolvers of modern design and materials.

Hatcher advises not to use black powder granulation smaller than FFG, but cap and ball revolver shooters have been using FFFG granulation for decades, with improved burning characteristics. Interestingly, in “Sixguns” Keith suggests FFFG grade for revolvers of .28 and .31 caliber, and FFG for those .36 caliber and larger.
Myself, I’ve had excellent results in all bore sizes, from .31 to .44, with FFFG and I believe that most experienced cap and ball revolver shooters would agree it’s the grade of choice. But if you can’t find FFFG, then FFG will certainly work well.

The need for plenty of lubrication is noted by Hatcher, and that remains true today. Not only does the lubricant ease the passage of the projectile down the bore, but excess lubricant tends to get sprayed onto and into areas covered with black powder fouling, keeping the fouling soft and reducing drag and binding of moving parts.
The best lubricant remains some type of natural soft grease, such as Crisco, lard, Bore Butter, mutton tallow or related blends. These soft greases are readily distributed with each shot, and don’t dry out from the heat of firing, as oils do.

Back to the 1930 inquiry from J.F.D. to The Dope Bag:
The reader notes that he’s been using Ideal (Lyman) 450225 conical and 451118 (.451 inch ball).
“I have used the latter (.451 inch ball) with good results with 40 grains FFG. Are there any other bullets that you would recommend?” J.F.D. wrote.
“Is FFFG black better than FFG? With the load mentioned above I got excessive fouling. I suppose this is due to an over charge rather than to the size of grain of the powder.
“Is there any smokeless powder that I could use, such as bulk smokeless?,” J.F.D. wrote

Major Julian S. Hatcher replied:
“The two  Ideal bullets you are using are O.K. for your gun. Forty grains of black powder is a heavy load. You can use this or any smaller one with these bullets. As long as you use over 20 grains of powder. Do not use any smaller size than FFG.
“The only other powder I have tried for a gun of this kind is King’s Semismokeless. You might try 20 grains of FFG with this powder.
“The excessive fouling may be due to insufficient lubrication. Fouling with black powder is almost always severe under any conditions, and the only way to avoid having it bother you is to use a well-lubricated wad between your bullet and powder,” Hatcher wrote.
“To get good results with these guns, it is essential to use plenty of lubrication. One way to do this is to use greased shotgun wads, and another way is to use greased felt wads that you can make yourself out of an old hat or any other similar material. The felt should be soaked in an equal mixture of Vaseline and paraffin or beeswax.
“The use of these wads will greatly alleviate the fouling you obtained,” Hatcher replied.

This is now the earliest reference I’ve found to the use of greased, felt wads in cap and ball revolvers. Their use prior to this 1930 reference remains unknown, but it must have been common knowledge for some time before this date. Ideally, I’d like to discover a reference to greased felt wads in cap and ball revolvers in the Civil War, or earlier. We may never know when this practice began.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline stubshaft

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 10:18:25 PM »
Great read Gatafeo.

I found the reference to the use of the greased wad interesting.  I had a "discussion" with one of the eggspurts at the range last week who swore that it was standard during the civil war?
If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong.

Offline Flint

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 06:03:28 AM »
I'm not sure how a greased wad could have been standard in the Civil War, as the Army issued paper cartridges, and they contained no wad.  Loose powder loading, which some soldiers may have done, might have included greased wads, but only if they loaded the revolver in the calm between battles when time was not an issue.  During a battle, there was barely time to reload at all, and paper cartridges would be the call.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 06:23:00 PM »
I have been on a quest for 10 years or so -- silly as it is -- to determine just how far back the use of greased felt wads in cap and ball revolvers go. Thus, I posted the above.
So, the earliest verifiable reference I now have is 1930.
I have never found in any veteran's diary or memoirs, a reference to greased felt wads.

Stubshaft, your "expert" is full of black powder fouling (to be kind). The only thing standard about ammunition for cap and ball revolvers during the Civil War was it being issued as paper cartridges. These used conical bullets exclusively: no lead balls, and no greased felt wad. The only lubrication, if there was any, was to dip the bullet into a bit of beeswax before sealing the cartridges into a paper-wrapped cartridge box. And not every military contractor did this.

Contrary to belief, nor was there a standard conical bullet weight or powder charge for the .36 and .44 paper cartridges. The weights of both varied widely from contractor to contractor.
Conical bullets for the .44 ranged from 207 to 260 grs. while powder charges ranged from 17 to 36 grains. This was for the standard .44, not the Dragoon.
Conical bullets for the .36 ranged from 139 to 155 grs, with powder charges from 12 to 21 grains.
This comes from an article in the Feb. 1975 issue of the American Rifleman, when various vintage paper cartridges were opened and weighed.

I'm pleased my posting was enjoyed. I like finding old info like this.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline stubshaft

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 10:19:50 PM »
Thanks Gatafeo.  I knew the bozo was full of beans.  One thing that I was not aware of is that they only used conicals during the CW.  Just goes to show that you can always learn something new.
If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 03:28:57 AM »
I'm pleased my posting was enjoyed. I like finding old info like this.

Speaking for myself, and I'm sure others, I'm glad you enjoy historical research!  'cause I sure enjoy reading it!   ;D
Richard
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Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 05:44:52 PM »
Well, poop.
Literally.
I was sitting on my throne a few days ago, with a 1929 issue of the American Rifleman, and there was yet another cap and ball revolver question from a reader, who had a Colt .31 caliber.
Maj. Julian S. Hatcher replied, and again suggested using a greased felt wad between ball and black powder.
Soooooooo ... that pushes my quest for the earliest reference to greased felt wads in cap and ball revolvers back to 1929, not 1930 like I posted recently.
Still haven't found any 19th century reference to the practice.
The late Elmer Keith wrote in 1955 that he purchased his first cap and ball revolver about 1912 and that Civil War veterans who lived in the area (Montana) showed him how to load it. But he stops short of saying they suggested the greased, felt wads.
Gatofeo's quest continues ... silly as it is.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline Oldwolf

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 09:44:12 AM »
Thanks for posting this. Always interested to read about the "old ways".

Offline copdills

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 03:57:50 PM »
Yes Thanks for posting this , thinking about trying to make some wads myself just for the fun of it , gives a newbee bbut old man busy in a new hobby

                                             thanks alot

Offline StrawHat

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2010, 07:02:46 AM »
Gatofeo,

I recall Elmer's remarks in SIXGUNS.  Also recall the veterans told him they used roundballs as they hit harder.  If I find the reference, I'll cite it.

Good info on the wads.  I know researching is a great "sport" especially when you find a nugget.
"Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result"  Winston Churchill

"A law without a punishment is merely advice."  anonymous

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 08:22:30 AM »
Since this was posted I bought a 17 ft. strip of that wx. stripping felt and a 45 cal. punch.  Got a 36 cal. punch on order.  Gonna pound out some wads!   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline FourBee

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 10:36:42 AM »
Now I know what to do with my ole worn out Cowboy felt hats.   Always hated to toss 'em.  Thanks again Gatofeo for the years of posting on the subject of blackpowder. 8)
4B
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 11:06:16 AM »
nice read
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NickSS

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Re: Cap and Ball Advice from 1930
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 02:22:29 AM »
An interesting read and topic.  In researching Civil War guns I found that all government made or contracted ammo for revolvers were loaded with conical bullets.  Most (not all) had one grease groove and were dipped in lube before loading in the cartridge.  Southern arsenals made not only combustible cartridges but loaded many that were basically small versions of the standard musket cartridge that required stripping the paper from the ball in loading. 
In addition to government supplied revolvers and cartridges, there were many thousands of personal weapons in the hands of CW soldiers.  It owuld be shear folly to state that cartridges with conical bullets were used in all of them.  I imagine that round balls loaded loose were in common use.  I read of at least one guy who was shot from the shore of the Mississippi River with a 36 cal round ball who died of infection caused by the ball.

Lastly if you read Colts instruction for loading their cap and ball revolvers it makes no mention at all of using lube on or under the ball.