1/2" guarantee

[progun]

Anyone ever have trouble with custom rifle maker not honoring an accuracy guarantee? I spent $4100 on a rifle with a half inch guarantee and I can't get this rifle to shoot. I have 190 rounds through it and I even contaminated the barrel with some fancy factory loads. I sent the rifle back and they said everything is fine and included a target that measured .890". That is the problem I am having with the rifle!!! I sent some firm but polite emails but have not got a reply and can't get a return phone call now. Bergers and Accubonds usually give the best results, just under an inch. What now?

[Graybeard]

Time to name names and let folks know who the dead beat is. A lot of times getting negative publicity on a site this size makes folks rethink their bad decisions. Just recently a decision made by Midway was reversed after negative publicity here.

If they promised a half inch it should deliver that and they should as a minimum be able to show you a target they shot with it that delivers that and be able to tell you at least one load they KNOW will do it.

A friend of mine bought a custom rifle in 6 BR and the father/son gunsmith team that built it and sold it to him promised it was shooting in the .2s and under. They provided some of the ammo they claimed to shoot that well with it. So far he's had darn few loads shoot under an inch and none of the stuff they provided did even that good. Now he has not yet gone back to them to give them a chance to make it right which I blame him for and have told him as much but he just keeps working with it in hopes he'll find a magic load but he is really unhappy with it.

If I paid that much and they offered a written accuracy gurantee I'd have an attorney call them and ask for a refund or to have it made right before he files the papers to sue them for a full refund plus his fees. I'm betting such a phone call that likely wouldn't cost you much if any over $50 would shake them loose to make it right.

Just posting their name here on the internet as the frauds they seem to be might be enough.

[mattmillerrx]

If nothing else it will make the next guy think twice before using them for there custom gun.  I am sick of buying junk these days that doesn't hold up or perform as promised.  But nothing makes me more ticked off than someone not standing by there word.  If they said it will shoot 0.5 in groups, then it better do it without much fuss or they better fix it or replace it.

A lawyer sounds like a good idea.  Seems that today it often takes a lawyer for people to do what's right in the first place.

[dud]

names man names

[roper]

 
Most gunsmith that I know if one of their customers is having a problem they will test fire their loads to confirm a problem which could be from any number of things "including a oversized bore/groove dia etc" but that should have been picked up when he chamber the rifle.

I assume you have a list of parts used including barrel what I do is call the manufactor and tell him your story he may want you to send the rifle to him for testing  also send the gunmsith a letter or e-mail and tell him what your doing since he refuses to honor his 1/2" guarantee.

lots of he said she said with gunmsith and I think alot of these guarantee gunsmith figure customer cann't shoot that good.  If your going to name name I'd do it on one of the big site like LR hunting/24hr campfire/6br alot of gunmsith post on the site and suppliers and I'd post his guarantee along with test target and his written comment.  Well good luck

[teddy12b]

I agree, name some names on this forum and you will be spreading the word very far.  For what you paid I would absolutely be furious!  Not trying to be rude but 1/2" groups seem to be more and more normal today out of factory rifles let alone a custom built gun that should fit you like a glove.  I agree that $50 spent on a lawyer for a phone call would be money well spent. 

For what's it's worth, a couple years ago I special ordered a savage rifle in a different chamber and in the paperwork they included a target they had shot with that rifle.  That doesn't compare to what you bought, but you might mention to them that even savage includes a target with the rifle.

[skyhigh_seller]

Did the rifle NOT come with a test target?  For that $$$ the load development and accuracy proving should have been done. 

Some of the best barrel makers only guarantee their work - not your rifle's accuracy.  Smith's who guarantee the whole package to 1/2" are really taking a gamble and would have to prove it to me.  And, they are likely much better shots than I am.

You'll spend another few hundred having a high quality independent smith air-guage and borescope the bbl, check the action squareness, inspect the bedding, etc. 

Your in a tough spot, but I suspect the only reason they get $4000 is because of the guarantee.  You can get a lot of custom for $2500.   

[Graybeard]

Wal roper perhaps you've not observed very closely but none of those sites listed are bigger than this one I do not believe. Size is measured by membership numbers and/or page views. I seriously doubt any of those can match the numbers of this site.

Posts here do get attention as the recent fiasco with Midway illustrates.

[Swampman]

Have you ever fired a 1/2" group with another rifle?

[longwinters]

Not trying to be rude, but Swampman asks a good question.  Are you a consistent MOA or better shooter? 

Long

[Swampman]

I don't know a lot of folks that have ever shot a 1/2" 100 yard group.  I've done it a few times with my old .30-06.  I don't shoot varmint rifles or benchrest rifles.  I've shot a lot of sub-MOA groups.

[hillbill]

am i missing something? isnt .890 way over 1/2 inch?sounds like they admitted the rifle wont hold up to the garuantee.as far as being able to shoot a 1/2 inch group at 100 yrds. i cant do it and dont know anyone that can do it consistently.thats basically all bullet holes touching.ive not seen that a lot.

[billy_56081]

I would like to hear more about this rifle, maker, caliber, 3 or 5 shot groups and history of shooting sub MOA groups. How are you measuring your groups? Not trying to be a naysayer just interested in all angles. I had a Savage 110 in 223 that would fire 3 shot groups in less than 1/2" but could only do it out of a vice with select loads. Please get back with us with this information.

[Vassal]

everyone shoots in different ways, and ALL of those variables matter. For what its worth I consistantly shoot groups .6" to .75" @ 100 with the Iron sites in a milsurp Mosin Nagant, And it isn't my only Mosin to go Sub MOA. that is with bags on a bench, no time limit, handloads that take forever, et cetera,,, My point is that this man could have bought 40! Mosins for what he paid. EVERY THING that guy said the rifle would do ----It had better do!
I agree that more info is needed. To add I also have a Savage 111 that shoots .5"  Man I really feel for a guy spending that much and not getting something he can be proud of. I dream of getting a custom rifle, and I bet this guy did too! I am getting angry!

[DalesCarpentry]

am i missing something? isnt .890 way over 1/2 inch?sounds like they admitted the rifle wont hold up to the garuantee.as far as being able to shoot a 1/2 inch group at 100 yrds. i cant do it and dont know anyone that can do it consistently.thats basically all bullet holes touching.ive not seen that a lot.

I did this last week with a cheap $200.00 Marlin 917-V 17HMR last week. These are 4 shot groups shot at 100 yards. In the bottom target on the bottom left. That target measures 1/8" center of bullet hole to center of bullet hole. Yes that group is one hole. Dale

[George Foster]

Yes this site has many more members but if you look at 24hr you will see there are many more members looking at topics at any given time.  I am referring to rifle related topics and I believe that is what Roper may have been referring to.

Graybeard, the father, son team of gunsmiths you refer to that built the 6BR, are they from Maryland?

[anweis]

I don't know a lot of folks that have ever shot a 1/2" 100 yard group.  I've done it a few times with my old .30-06.  I don't shoot varmint rifles or benchrest rifles.  I've shot a lot of sub-MOA groups.

I special ordered a custom rifle. Expensive. The gunsmith fired a 0.4" 5 shot group in front of me at the range. He gave me the load recipe and a list of factory ammo that shot well. I could not shoot less than 1" for a year. Since i hunt and don't shoot competition, that was OK. It took me a year of practice and 10,000 rounds of ammo (mostly .22) to practice before i shoot 0.5" with that rifle.

True, if the customer is an experienced shooter and if the gunsmith promissed, the gunsmith should deliver or substantiate their claim.

[teddy12b]

After reading all these other comments I really think you should mention who built the rifle.  There's no shame in paying a lot of money for a quailty item and I think it's great that you would do that.  I'm sure the rifle would become a priceless piece of family history, but if you're not happy with it the builder should make it right.  I'd hate to see this become the rifle that sits in the back of the safe and never gets used because of some bitter feelings about it.  Maybe it's too late for that.

[mrbigtexan]

After reading all these other comments I really think you should mention who built the rifle.  There's no shame in paying a lot of money for a quailty item and I think it's great that you would do that.  I'm sure the rifle would become a priceless piece of family history, but if you're not happy with it the builder should make it right.  I'd hate to see this become the rifle that sits in the back of the safe and never gets used because of some bitter feelings about it.  Maybe it's too late for that.

i am not disagreeing with anyone but a rifle that shoots sub-moa will never sit in the back of my gun cabinet not being shot. you might try seating a bullet a little longer in the neck.

[Graybeard]

Graybeard, the father, son team of gunsmiths you refer to that built the 6BR, are they from Maryland?

I don't think so. My friend lives in PA north and east of Pittsburgh and I think the smiths are at least reasonably local to him. I don't know their names or precisely where they are located. He met them at a nearby gunshow and bought it I think but he bought the rifle they had already made up and had been shooting directly from the pair.

So far he hasn't decided what he will do with the rifle but hasn't followed my advice to him on it and likely will not.

I'm more confrontational than that and I'd have been going to see them as soon as I ruled out loose bases, rings and bad scope while I still had some of the ammo they provided with the rifle in hand.

In this case we're talking of here putting the name of the maker out there seems the way to go otherwise what was the purpose of posting here to begin with.

[teddy12b]

After reading all these other comments I really think you should mention who built the rifle.  There's no shame in paying a lot of money for a quailty item and I think it's great that you would do that.  I'm sure the rifle would become a priceless piece of family history, but if you're not happy with it the builder should make it right.  I'd hate to see this become the rifle that sits in the back of the safe and never gets used because of some bitter feelings about it.  Maybe it's too late for that.

i am not disagreeing with anyone but a rifle that shoots sub-moa will never sit in the back of my gun cabinet not being shot. you might try seating a bullet a little longer in the neck.

I'm not saying the rifle wouldn't get shot because it's inaccurate or a bad rifle by any means.  I don't doubt that this rifle is simply outstanding in every way and would be a fine rifle.  What I was getting at is that in my experience when I become disappointed in a gun for any number of reasons that it either doesn't get out to the range very much or gets sold off quickly.  For instance I have an encore 30-06 that took my first two deer with.  I have much better & more accurate rifles than that now and it's a pain to shoot at the range.  It never makes it out to the range, and if it wasn't the gun I got my frist two deer with it'd be gone.  I still own it, but I'm not a big fan of it.  Does that make sense? 

[progun]

To answer some of the questions: I am not ready to name drop the rifle maker yet because it might end up in court and I do not want to have any hang-ups there with badmouthing them publicly.

Yes, I have shot lots of tiny groups with target rifles and a few hunting rifles. I have been shooting competitevely in some form or another since I was eight.

The rifle is a 7mm STW on a Remington action.

Most if my loads have been with Nosler Custom Brass with H1000 and Retumbo powder. Accubonds, Bergers and Barnes TTSX give the best results (still lacking).

[Vassal]

AH HAA! Give them a chance to read this board --- and make it right.





THen get EM!!!!!!!!!

[roper]

Guy walks into a famous BR gunsmith ask can you build me a rifle to shoot in the .0's gunsmith ask can you shoot in the .0's.

I had two 300mag build used same actions/barrel/stocks and wanted them set up so fired ammo would work in either chamber.  I got the rifles looked like two different gunsmith chamber each rifle with different reamers I had sako extractors installed they didn't work.  Gunsmith had those rifles appr 2mos then another two and still didn't fix extractor or chambers and I told him he could recut those chambers.   I had the bolts replaced chamber recut by another gunsmith  and sold both rifles for me to go after that gunsmith would of cost more than I paid to fix those rifles.

I ask alot more question now when having work done lesson I learned.  Gunsmith is still in business and has alot of happy customers.

I always figure he just put off the fix figuring I'd get tired of bring them back and I did.

[skyhigh_seller]

Here is someone who does rifle diagnosis - scroll to bottom of page:
http://spencerriflebarrels.com/

Here's a gun guaranteed to shoot the 0.25 moa - I would give Spencer a chance to diagnose your rifle as they claim to have the ability to build the like.  If you want restitution from the builder, I suspect a pro diagnosis would go a long way.
http://spencerriflebarrels.com/completerifles.htm#virginiahog

[skyhigh_seller]

I think 0.25 moa guarantee on a 7 STW is a bit of an outlier.  Typically guarantees like that are only extended to benchrest and a few varmint calibers.

[diggler1833]

There are a lot of rifle builders out there that will include test targets with their rifle, proving their guarantee.  There are also a lot a rifle builders that have made great reputations by treating their customers right, and providing excellent work, those builders you generally hear a lot about on forums.  Going with someone else, unless you personally know them is a bit of a crap shoot.  A lot of times those not-so-known gunsmiths are capable of great work, sometimes they aren't, and unfortunately some of those not so good ones can give the rest a bad name.

Most of the time you will find those guarantees to be easier to get to by utilizing a benchrest setup.  I highly doubt any rifle builder offering a 1/2" guarantee will test fire their rifles off of a crappy rest, and then ship it off without knowing what it can do.

[roper]

Here is an gunsmith who guarantee 1/2"
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2010-custom-rifles/ga-precision-base-custom-rifle.html

One reason I paid to replace the bolts etc instead of suing.  I would of lost the use for those rifles court battles can drag on and most time gunsmith may not live in same state.

here is progun comments "Yes, I have shot lots of tiny groups with target rifles and a few hunting rifles. I have been shooting competitevely in some form or another since I was eight.

The rifle is a 7mm STW on a Remington action.

Most if my loads have been with Nosler Custom Brass with H1000 and Retumbo powder. Accubonds, Bergers and Barnes TTSX give the best results (still lacking)."


Here is an experience shooter not getting the load from the gunsmith that guarantee 1/2" groups with his test targets.

[cobrad]

I had a similar problem with an ultra light rifle built by a very well known firm. The rifle was guaranteed to fire sub moa and the guy sent a box of ammo, but no targets. On first inspection this particular rifle had a major flaw in the metal work, and the stock looked like it was an apprentices project. I called the guy and sent it back. When it was returned the metal work was cleaned up and looked great, but someone had taken that same stock and made it worse. It was simply unbelievable it was ever allowed to leave the shop. At the bench the rifle was a 1 1/2" shooter, and yes I have shot a lot of 1/2" and smaller groups. The guy stonewalled me and refused to correspond, so I sent the POS back to him and filed a claim with my credit card company. Thank heavens I used that card. After a year of headaches I finally got my money back. That guy is still advertising. Not sure what went wrong but I don't believe that is the quality he built his business on. I have had 5 custom rifles, 4 made to order for me. Two shot as they were represented, and two were real disappointments. I don't know that I will ever bother with another custom, but if I do, it will be with someone who guarantees his accuracy and provides targets and load data, along with good references. That said I have 3 Coopers that all shoot 1/2", or better, as guaranteed.

[joshua 35 whelen]

I just got a .270 win Mcwhorter with a Swarovski Z6i 2-12x50 rail mount on the way.  The rifle has the 1/2 inch claim you are talking about and I was told it shot a .09 and .11 at 100 and has held 1/2 out to 600yds.  Two boxes of custom ammo came with it as well as the best load data.  I shot a .5 with a sako 75 finnlight at 100yds with 5 shots on the reg so my skills should put it to the test at 100yds anyway.  Anything past that has some factors involved unless it is an indoor range that far.  I shoot the M-4 with iron sights  a bunch for my job so it helps to practice.  But if it is them, which I don't think it is even though the price sounds like one, they have answered every phone call and question so far, and the service has been great.  Hope all works out for you.