9mm luger loading for a rifle with slower burning powder?

[Default]

Like the title says , I'm seeking load information/ Advice on loading the 9mm for a rifle with a slower burning powder to squeeze the most for this platfom .. Weapon is a Ruger PC9 rated for +P and +P+ loads, quite frankly the weapon is built like a tank ( like most other rugers   )  So far I have played with some Blue Dot loads with a 147 XTP with good results ( I need to get a crony to be sure of velocity gains over listed data speeds from the manual) accuracy was exellent at 50 and 90 yards ..

 I'm taking out some 124 plated Rainiers to see how they perform with Blue Dot and with a load I found for the 124gr using IMR 4227 .. With the IMR being a even slower burning powder then the Blue Dot I'm hoping that it will wringe a bit more then the listed velocity of 800+/- out of the 16" barrel on the Ruger for that load.

 Has anyone else tried this line of thinking out in the past?

 Tried any combination with these powders for use in a carbine ?

  Any thoughts or info, good or bad would be appreciated guys..

        Default

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Which manual are you getting your data from?
Lyman 48th & 49th show minimum starting loads for Blue Dot well over your 900 fps. for 125 gr. JHP and they use the Ruger PC9 for their data.
I load Unique in my Marlin Camp 9 following the data from the Lyman 47th which used the Marlin Camp 9 for their rifle data back then.

Bill

[carbineman]

As I'm sure you know trying to find a propellant that works well with just a carbine at somewhat higher velocity may cause your loads to be pretty hot if you loaded one by mistake into a semi auto pistol. I had this idea sometime back to try this but decided against it simply because I thought the ammo would be easily interchanged with my pistol ammo and I'd stand a remote possibility of wearing one of my semi-auto handguns on my face. YMMV

A chronograph would be nice to determine velocity as well as to make sure you don't go over pressure on your experiment.

I'm not sure you are going to turn your PC 9 into any better of a killing machine than what you already have. I gained about 75 FPS with my old Camp Carbine over the 4" pistol barrel using pistol powders.

Don't know about Raniers, but most plated bullets can't take what a jacketed bullet can when it comes to pressure.

[HAMMERHEAD]

The Rainiers should be fine, I drive them to 1,300 fps in the .38 Super and they are rated for 1,500 fps.

[Default]

Well was able to get some of the loads i worked up through the PC9 tonight. Deffinately a recoil difference with the 124 gr Rainier ( using lead data ) over a charge of 8.6-8.7( this was my mistake It was the IMR that was 8.8 not the Blue Dot) of Blue Dot .. I checked after every shot for the first two mags to see if any plating or lead was being left behind , Nothing except a few particles ... Rather a clean load i might add...Was a fair bit more recoil and report then factory 115gr federals and the other blue dot 147 xtp loads I had worked up initially . Accuracy was good at 50 and 100 yards. Primers were a little flat but not Nato flat by any means

  Bill , The 800+/- I was reffering to was the listed velocity for the IMR 4227 loads in the LEE manual , Not the blue dot ( though the Blue Dot load i have was also from LEE's 2nd edition) .. Thou curiousity needs me to ask , What FPS was Lymans book listing the 124 at with a max load of blue dot ?

 The IMR 4227 while being a slower burner didnt give the extra recoil and report the blue dot load did , But again I need a chrony to be sure as to what is happening. Other then knowing the velocity it too went to my point of aim at 50 and 100 and was good in the accuracy department , I cant help but mention that this load of IMR 4227 felt more like a lite sub sonic and one shot was caught by the bolt and the front of the reciever as the case was fleaing .

 CarbineMan ,  I agree . One has to be Vigilant about keeping the right ammo with the right weapon, Thou my only other 9mm in the house is a CZ 85 ( ambindextrious version of the CZ 75) that can handle 124gr nato +P ammo .. So my concern is not as over whelming as it was with my Uberti 45 long colts and having hot loads for a single shot H&R or Ruger pistol , Both the H&R and Ruger can handle loads that would turn my Yellow boys brass reciever into a Real Bad Day.  

 My line of thinking is one that of curiousity , What can this little round accomplish out of a 16 inch barrel .. Since it has been debated to death that a 10 to 11" barrel is the longest it should be for max benefit of the 9mm out of a rifle platform ( using factory loaded ammo aimed at being used in pistols) I dont expect that i can turn this handy little carbine into the Hammer of Thor by any means , But interested in its full potential

   Default

[Bigeasy]

Interesting post.  Auto pistol rounds like the 9mm and 45acp do not seem to pick up the same velocity advantage in rifle length barrels as do the magnum revolver rounds.  I would think velocities could be improved using a slower powder.  This would not necessarily increase pressures, just change the burning rate of the round to better match the longer barrel.  A chronograph is a necessity, though.

Larry

[Masterblaster1]

Try Accurate no #7 powder. It was originally developed as a powder for 9mm nato carbines.

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

 Bill , The 800+/- I was reffering to was the listed velocity for the IMR 4227 loads in the LEE manual , Not the blue dot ( though the Blue Dot load i have was also from LEE's 2nd edition) .. Thou curiousity needs me to ask , What FPS was Lymans book listing the 124 at with a max load of blue dot ?
   Default

From the Lyman 49th:
9mm (rifle data) Ruger PC9 Test Rifle
Sierra 125 gr. JHP  #8125
Federal Brass
CCI 500 Primer
Blue Dot
Minimum: 6.3 gr. = 1001 fps
Maximum: 7.1+ gr.(compressed load) = 1270 fps

Bill
 

[Default]

Master ,

 I had just found that information on the net about a couple days ago , About #7 being used in the nato SMG loads ... But good luck to us all in finding any #7 available .. I have pistol powders from a number of powder manufacturers but none of Accurates , Can never find the stuff online or at my local haunts ..

 Bill,

  Much thanks on the load data..  Now you want to know the reason I ask and keep multiple refference manuals ? Lee 2nd edition lists a 125gr lead bullet at 8.2 min - 8.2 max of Blue Dot
 And list the same charge for a 125gr FMJ projetilce with OAL @ 1.150 .

 My load was an even 8.0 grains under the Rainier 124gr with Fed. match primers and Win. SPP in CCI brass @ 1.150 OAL .. So my guess would be these are landing well into +P if not firmly in +P+ territory out of this rifle.
 Both had increased recoil and report.. Would say the the rounds with the Fed match primers felt just a touch hotter, Of course that was my take on them versus the Win primed.
 50 of each with no ill affects on primers, ( other then the mentioned mild flattening of the primer) brass, barrel, projectile or action . And they burned real clean with no heavy deposits in the rifling. Also there was no , and I mean no muzzle flash.

BigEasy ,

 I noticed the same thing hence the reason for the experimenting with Blue Dot and IMR 4227.. And Yeah the Chrony is going to be a must. And if work was doing better it wouldnt be on my wish list but on its way from Midway heh;)

 As a Side note , The Fed primered Blue Dot 124 gr loads shot superbly out of the CZ 85 at 15 yards, Without my caliper I would guess an easy 1.5" or less 5 shot group off hand.


   Default

[3leggedturtle]

Default  cant help you with reloading data but,  have T/C Contender Carbine with a 16 1/4" barrel   the W-W whitebox 115gr FMJ did 1350FPS  R-P 115gr HP's did 1340FPS and  WW CLEAN AMMO 147gr FP did 1150FPS  these were all chronographed outside when it was 28 degrees F.   They each picked up 200FPS over the 4" pistol barrel velocities. Considering all the BS I heard about how 9mm loses velocity in a rifle barrel it surprised me a little;  But like the old drag race saying  "The bull stops, WHEN The flag drops"  Have fun  3leg 

[Masterblaster1]

I usually order my primers and powders from cabelas or other places online. Last pound of accurate # 7 i got from cabelas. It is about the same price for me to pay hazmat than to drive all around to find bits and pieces.
I have tried it in my 9mm ruger pistol but ran out of bullets, so tests at this time are inconclusive...

[Default]

3Legged ,

  That does help actually , Based on that data , It would be safe to guess the 124 Rainiers are moving out @ 1390+/- Basing it on a 200fps bump in horsepower from the Ruger.. If that is spot on with what is actually happening with this load then that should calculate out to 532 ft.lbs. of energy at the muzzle, which I'm not about to sneeze at.

 That would put it on par with a 125gr 357 mag from a number of factories and surpass some others, Also My guess would be that at 100 yrds it would be hitting like a point blank hit from a pistol in said caliber. I would be more then happy with these numbers .. But nonetheless would like to know for sure , might have to ask around my gun/pawn haunts if anyone has a chrony to aide me with.

 Master,

   You and me are on the same page there , I order online almost exclusively since my buddy closed his shop a couple years ago ( only person really that carried reloading supplies) next closest shop that carries powders and primers is about a 45 minute drive one way, Last order I was able to get a friend to go in with me on the order to minimize the haz mat.
  But again I just dont seem to have any luck finding that particular powder when I look for it , Though in fairness I dont check Cabelas very often either.

   Thanks again guys,
 
     Default