Author Topic: The newer calibers like the 10mm or the 40cal or the good olde 45acp... (Read 1510 times)

1911crazy · « **on:** March 18, 2010, 09:08:39 AM »

I can be a real butt head at times and i'm sure that most of us 1911 guys/gals can be about our auto's and calibers. Most auto calibers are judged by the 45acp. So here are my thoughts on the new and not so new wizz bang calibers. I could be wrong too but its just my thoughts.

What promped me to do this post is there were a few 40cal cases in my lot of 3,000 45acp cases(once fired brass) that i just received. I never seen a 10mm or a 40cal case before. I can't believe the hype about this 40cal and its wimpy looking little case. Some were stuck in my 45acp cases so whats that tell us. Many years ago i would compare all the new auto rounds to the 45acp +p ammo specs to see if they can be bigger and better at the ballastics. Most of the time all the others will lose at this comparision. I really don't think any other auto calibers(not the bigger than 45cal boys) like the 10mm or the 40cal come close to the performance of the 45acp +p or hotter load. I think the olde 45acp still has the knockdown power over the other two calibers. I have other handgun calibers in auto's and revolvers but i'm kind of partial to the 1911 in 45acp i guess. I just don't see what all the hype is about the newbies on the block.

I just don't get it when all the LEO's are picking the 40cal over the 357SIG?

I put the 357SIG in a class by itself with its ballastics being equal to the 357mag with the 125jhp bullet. I really still like the 357mag. If i was going to up for a new caliber in a 1911 it would be a 357SIG in a double stack. But thats another post.

williamlayton · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2010, 12:54:30 PM »

I don't particularly care for the .40--but, like the 9mm in the military, many leo's don't have a choice--the agency determines the weapon choice and the caliber.
The 10mm is a good solid round that carries the speed of the 9mm and knockdown of the .45---but is unmanagable by many shooters and that is the reason for the .40 short and weak, IE, a 10mm short.
Blessings

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2010, 01:20:48 PM »

William got it dead on. The .40 is for Those who are afraid of a real cartridge. The .45 is still more gun. The 10mm is a fine round but dosen't have a place for me. I have .357 revolvers and .45 autos, Other than just wanting a new gun the 10mm or the weaker .40 just don't fill a spot. Actually a .357 sig would prolly get the nod first for me.

S.S. · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2010, 03:20:37 PM »

Never have liked the 357 SIG myself but I would have to blame
most of my dislike for the cartridge on the Gun I was using.
Can't stand the trigger pull on SIG pistols but maybe the cartridge would
be allright in Glock or Springfield. As for the 10mm, I love it!
Excellent cartridge, plenty powerful for most anything in the lower 48
with a properly constructed bullet. .40 is a good round and is what I carry now.
Although so far the .40 has not garnered a much better reputation than the 9x19
in stopping ability, I just liked the Glock 27 pistol in .40, so I bought it.
All this is not saying a whole lot for me though, cause I still carry a .25 automatic
too. And I really like the .32 ACP!

tomray · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2010, 03:23:23 PM »

To each, his own.............But I think your overlooking something, if you overlook the 10MM.........

A 185Gr 10MM bullet running at 1250 FPS sure gets my attention as a field round for hunting.........
Don't tell me a 45ACP is better, I got 9 of them and I've been shooting them since the late '70's at plates pins and paper.........I know what a 45ACP is capable of..................The 10MM just make more sense to me in the field......Yes, it does take a little more practice to be effective with a 10MM, but isn't that why we go to the range?
Just my thoughts after owning and shooting the 45's since the 70's and the 10MM since the mid 80's............As for the 40,.........It's a reduced power 10MM for those that can't handle the 10MM............Nothing wrong with that either.

Tom
NRA LIFE

Savage · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2010, 04:36:19 PM »

Having been a proponent of the .45acp for 50+ years, you would probably expect to see me shooting one in most matches. Truth is, in the stock division of USPSA or SSP division of IDPA, for the past 3-4 years I've been shooting the 9mm more than anything else. I never thought much about the .40, the 9mm had me covered in minor, and the .45 had me covered in major (Single Stack and Limited 10). In the last year or so, I have been shooting more .40 S&W and enjoying the best of both worlds. With the .40, I have near the magazine capacity of the 9mm, and can make major easily with the same gun.
I am considering buying a limited pistol in .40 this season. Either a Witness Elite Match, or an STI wide body. Either way, the CZ platform or the 1911, it'll be in .40 S&W.
The .357 Sig is a good round as well, but the bottle necked case and the inability to utilize the heavier bullets, take it out of the game for me. The 10mm is one of my favorite cartridges. I love to shoot them from time to time. IMO, it's leaps and bounds ahead of the .45 for field use. With the heavier bullets. it would be my choice over the .45 for deer size game.
I doubt I'd ever be interested in a 1911 single stack in .40, but in a double stack, the added capacity in a real plus. Guess you could say I've recently become a .40 fan. Still not giving up my .45s.
Savage

FourBee · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2010, 05:37:59 PM »

Quote

Posted by: 1911crazy I think the olde 45acp still has the knockdown power over the other two calibers.

Never had the desire to try those two calibers either.

I was introduced to the .45acp after several years of using the 9mm S&W 5906 and the .357Mag Colt Trooper , and as your username says, I went "1911crazy" .

I sure do like'em.
4B

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2010, 06:30:16 AM »

Police go with the medium bores because 45s have a stigma attached that is not politically correct. Miliary goes with 9mm because it's complies with NATO. If I were a competition shooter, I'd go with a nine, but I can't see any reason at all to chose a .40 for anything. 10mm is one of the best, if not the best. My agency adopted the S&W 10MM, but they chose subsonic loads, which caused problems with the pistol. They currently issue .357 Sig, which is good, but it sure ain't a .45acp or 10mm.

Bob Riebe · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2010, 06:54:46 AM »

One thing to remember about the .45, ignoring a mathematician's version of what a bullet does, a .45 caliber bullet will ALWAYS make at least a .45 in hole in what ever it hits.

1911crazy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2010, 06:56:24 AM »

So some of you guys say the 10mm is hotter than the 40cal? You would pick the 10mm over the 45acp in power? Does the 10mm kick/recoil more than the 45acp?
I've only shot the 32acp, 9mm's and 45acp's so far.

S.S. I just picked up another pistol in 32acp its a CZ50. My other 32acp pistol is a yugo. The CZ50 like its newer CZ brothers has a double action on the first shot. In looking at the CZ50 it seems similair to the CZ82/Cz83's and i just can't figure out where the butt ugly CZ52 design came from. It looks like they nailed the design with the CZ50 yet they cahnged it in the CZ52 and went back to the CZ50 design in the CZ82/83's.

mdi · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2010, 08:41:18 AM »

My research found the .40 (the wimpy little sister if the 10mm) was developed for law enforcement, because too many trainees could not shoot a .45 ACP or the 10mm. Non-gun folks training for law enforcement that are afraid of recoil, or cannot qualify with the .45 or 10mm, so the .40 was developed (ballistic equivelent of the 38-40). In my mind M1911 = .45 ACP, .40 cal and 9mm = plastic semi-autos. Haven't tried the 10mm, yet...

P.S. I know it doesn't apply here, but when I want/need more power, I'll go with one of my .44 Magnums (265 gr gas check running about 1200 fps out of either a 6" Mod 629 or a 7 1/2" Blackhawk.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2010, 09:52:29 AM »

The 10mm, 45 ACp, and 38 Super are all longer and can be chambered in the 1911 guns.
the 40 is a cut back version of the 10mm to be more PC at the FBI and will fit in all guns designed to shoot the 9X19 round and giving ballistics similar to the 185 grain 45 ACP rounds.
The 40 with 2 to 5 more rounds in a double stact than your standard 1911.
The 10mm was the Cooper Brain Child and he wanted something more powerful than 45 in the 41 Mag range that ould be housed in the 1911 frame. The FBI adopted it and then found it was too much for most of their smaller agents and loaded it down to 40 levels and then came up with the 40 S&W. there we silly groups screaming about over penitration and protecting the citizens that also effected the designing of the 40. This is why at the Bank shoot out in Hollywood the police with shotguns were not able to stop the robbers. They had #4 bird shot in stead of buck and slugs but that is a different posting.
I am not exactly a 1911 fan and prefer an different design. But own 9, 40, and 45 semi auto handguns by the same maker.
All three work well and knowing now and had to do it all over again I would have just stuck to one of the three and spent the time and money into getting really good and shooting at matches rather than owning basiclly the same gun that eats different types of ammo, requires different projectiles, cases, holsters, and magazines.
If you are happy with the 45 and the 1911 frame. Keep it.
If you want the power of the 10mm for hunting then you have two options of 10mm or 400 Corbon (45ACP necked to 40)
If you want a 40 for a smaller carry gun get a double or single stacked 9X19 sized gun (comander sized or smaller) Take advantage of the smaller case with a smaller sized gun that can hold more rounds.
Other than that all the handgun rounds between the 9, 357 sig, 38 super, 40, 10mm, 41 AE, 45 Glock, 45 ACP loaded with the same designed bullet - FMJ or Hollow point rate with in a few % points of each other on the one stop shot. What I mean is FMJ out of a 9mm or 45 are about 62-64% and with the same hollow point the Gold dot, golden saber, SXT, hornady all are going to be with in a few points of each other between calibers if factory loadings.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2010, 11:17:03 AM »

The 357 sig did not equal the 357 mag for me . It was little more than a loud 9mm. WE can get into bullet shape etc. but i didn't like it . I love my 10 mm it comes as close to a 357 mag in deeds as any auto IMHO. The 40 ya'll crack me up Because the 10 was down graded ( yep they loaded it with less zip for LE ) then the 40 was built because the extra length of the 10 mm case was not needed and guns could be more compact. Seems if the Army had not used the 45 Colt the 41 Colt or 38-40 would have equaled or exceded sales of the 45 in the old west. Why ? becaused it was a good man stopper and kicked less . It also seems the 40 is about the same in power . Gee it was good in the old days but not now ? But the 9mm is all the rage these days ! But don't let me cloud the issue with facts .

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2010, 01:41:01 PM »

The 10mm is a real hard kicker. The Colt had some frame problems from it. I didn't like it for the same reason I don't like the PPK---at range sessions both just get tiresome after about 100 rounds.
Talk to ACE and see about a .45 mag
I will put the 9x23 up against the 10mm and shoot rings around it, and do it at 1400 fps. Then get a double stack 9x23.
I like the .45--it will do anything you want done if you can do it.
How dead do you want someone?
Folks, we have all the calibers needed + some.
The .45 and 9x23 are more than sufficent.
But we keep wanting the perfect caliber---I know, I know.
Blessings

1911crazy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2010, 03:15:20 PM »

Really its all the hype about this new perfect caliber that they have to offer to us. I still like my olde 1911 in 45acp and probably will never change(maybe).
I was just wondering what the difference is between the 10mm and the 40cal. There's all this hype that seems to fizzle out when a newer better caliber is offered to us. From what you guys are saying. First it was the 10mm and then the 10mm was no good so they offered us the 40cal. The whole time the 45acp took a back seat yet it continues to be the one.

I been shoulder holstering a ruger redhawk in 44mag ever since they came out. I just got tired of carrying a cannon looking for a sling shot fight. I switched back and forth to the 357mag(snubbie) and to the 1911 but they got heavy too. Right now i like the cz82 in 9mm mak for CCW. I thought the 9mm makarov would have way less bark over the 9mm luger but its pretty stout too.

But now i'm armed with the knowledge of the 40cal and the 10mm so i know what i'm looking at. You never know what i will find at an affordable price. If i was going to pick one or two it would be the 10mm and the 357SIG. But i would like the 357sig in a 1911 frame/style.

torpedoman · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2010, 03:57:15 PM »

I'm old and i like the old proven stuff, no flavor of the week for me.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2010, 04:15:49 PM »

In the end, it's the caliber that gets the job done. A .40 ain't a .45. A .357 Sig or .357 Magnum ain't a .45. Velocity gained via bullet weight reduction wil never do what a .45 can do. If you want hyper velocity to make a certain kill, you have to go to a rifle. We carry handguns because we can't carry rifles. Paper ballistics mean little compared to real world stopping power. Never will produciton handguns exceed the potential of a heavy .45 bullet on human targets. It's been proven time and again.

Bob Riebe · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2010, 08:46:51 PM »

Quote from: Mike in Virginia on March 19, 2010, 04:15:49 PM

In the end, it's the caliber that gets the job done. A .40 ain't a .45. A .357 Sig or .357 Magnum ain't a .45. Velocity gained via bullet weight reduction wil never do what a .45 can do. If you want hyper velocity to make a certain kill, you have to go to a rifle. We carry handguns because we can't carry rifles. Paper ballistics mean little compared to real world stopping power. Never will produciton handguns exceed the potential of a heavy .45 bullet on human targets. It's been proven time and again.

Well a 1911 based Grizzly .50 AE, will probably do that, but as Wild Bill said, how dead do they have to be?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2010, 02:14:34 AM »

heres my take on it. The 40 is a good round. If loaded to max pressure and using a hp jacketed bullet its probably every bit the stopper a 45acp is loaded with its best factory ammo. Now if a guy is shoot fmj or cast the acp has a definate advantage. The 10mm is more powerfull then the acp or the 40. Loaded up to max levels its more then a 357 mag and approaches a 41 mag in stopping power. Theres uses in my opinion for the 40 in 1911s although ive never owned one in that platform. Loaded down in a target gun it recoils less then a 45 so it would make a great competition gun. It also is shorter so it can be chambered in cool little guns like the springfield emp and in any 1911 platform it gives you a few extra rounds. The 10mm in a 1911 is something ive allways wanted and will someday own. I would like a commander sized gun and it would make a great trail gun that is more then capable of taking deer and even black bear with the right loads. I did own a smith 610 that i foolishly sold and gave away all my 10mm brass at that time and thats what probably slows me down on buying one. Just another round to stock and load for and ive got plenty now. All that been said I do own a number of 45acp 1911s and obviously if i could only have one it would be a 45.

Pinkerton · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2010, 06:08:49 AM »

I'm like Jesus, I love them all

I have the 45 (kimber pro carry II) 38 Super (kimber team match) 9x19 (EMP)

my opinion has always been that the 10mm is at it's best as a hunting round. And my next purchase (God and the wife allowing) a stainless target kimber in 10mm.

myronman3 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 21, 2010, 05:00:20 PM »

love them all as well. i do not currently own a 40. the 10mm is a favorite of mine, and if i had to have either a 10mm or a 45, it wouldnt be an easy choice but i would take the 10mm. yes, i like it that much. it is an incredible cartridge.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2010, 02:18:39 AM »

The 10 mm approches the 41 mag. police load a much tamer load than the full power 41 mag. I have and shoot the 10mm its a great gun and round and really don't find it beating me up . As for frame damage , you do need to maintain the correct recoil spring in the gun . Replace it as needed.

Noreaster · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2010, 04:36:59 AM »

My agency issues the 357 sig. Great round, accurate. I don't think the recoil is that bad, snappy but better than a 180grn 40. The muzzle blast is something as is the noise, on indoor ranges we have been using double ear protection. Most agencies around us use the 40 S&W. Not a bad round either. SP uses 45acp, (long standing round for them.) I can tell you that administators don't like the idea of 357sig. They don't like to be associated with magnums or stopping power, and they don't want to deal with cops complaining about recoil, (most cops never fired a gun before getting on.) When the 40 came out it filled a need and instructors were able to get it in service without much hoopla. Also when the 9mm was on the way out the 45 acp was generally limitied to single stack or over sized grips. With the M&P we are seeing more agencies switching over to 45acp. We had one pissed off drunk who took allot of 357 sig rounds before being stopped. Wasn't so much shot placement, the guy was really driven, very angry. I don't think another round would have done any better. I would like to try a 1911 in 357 sig. I like the round better than the 40S&W and it has more field/hunting use than th 40 or 45. It would make a nice flat carry piece for woods carry.

williamlayton · « **Reply #23 on:** March 23, 2010, 04:53:22 AM »

This is an interesting thread and I have considered all the responses---but--sometimes we say one thing and mean another.
Recoil---it only has to do anything with shooting when at a range, games, and target practice.
By that I mean that I can shoot anything, with any amount of recoil, if I just pick it up and shoot it. The recoil can affect double tap time and accuracy of a second shot. This is the effect of shooting without thinking, thinking about target accuracy. Pressure shooting, trying to get a bullet on target and quickly.

Range sessions are another subject. When I shoot at the range It is usually in sessions of at least 200 rounds down range. It is not about 200 rounds in sucession as fast as I can reload.
In these sessions i take my time and shoot at a dot. Rarely do I try and shoot precision. I try and shoot as though I would in an "experience", Not fast but quickly.
I like to know where I am shooting--not "at what I am shooting."
In these sessions, Caliber, recoil, and comfort become a very real observation/value/thought/consideration.
I shoot, at these sessions, those weapons that I enjoy shooting. Keeping in mind that the caliber of the weapons will do a job if I will.
I carry often, a small PPK in .380. and I shoot it regularly but not in long range sessions---it just is not fun--and fun is a good consideration in range sessions and my life.
I would own and carry any caliber--and shoot it if necessary.
But since I shoot for fun and practice most of the time---I shoot what is fun.
.38 super, 9x23, .45 and now the .327 mag.
IMO.
Blessings

Ak.Hiker · « **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2010, 08:01:41 PM »

For a woods walking handgun I would take the 10mm. I like the penetration of a 200 grain FMJ at 1200. For SD for me it would be a toss up between the 45 acp and the 40 S&W. I like them both. The 40 loaded with a 180 grain bullet at 1000 or a 45 acp loaded with a 230 grain bullet at 890 would both be good choices.

williamlayton · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:59:32 AM »

Too be honest, I agree with AK. The 10mm is a super penetrator and against Bad Guy Big Game (bears and such), I would much prefer it.
The .45 is a better compromise for the urban/combat/close encounter with humans---IMO.
The .40S&W is lost on the .357Sig.
The 9x23 is the best compromise for any number of encounters that we are faced with, in the woods or home defense/self defense---if you are looking for ONE caliber.
I, fortunately, use all, at different times---call ahead if you have a prefrence for one to be shot with.

Blessings

wxl · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2010, 07:01:45 PM »

I have to agree with williamlayton.

I have 5 1911s in 45acp, 3 in 10mm plus 1 in 9mm. The 10mm is a great cartridge and my pick over the 45acp if I had to choose. I do not find much difference in recoil. The 9mm is a fun shoot in the 1911 and accurate. I do have 40, 357Sig, 45acp and 9mm in Glocks and enjoy them as well.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2010, 04:38:14 AM »

The Glocks are good guns, but can be dangerous in certain cals. In both 40S&W and 10mm the Glocks have unsupported chambers and fast powder like Accurate arms should not be used. In fact Accurate Arms came out a few years ago and stated this. I have personnally seen cased from a Glock 10mm and they were an ugly site. The case was bulged so bad that when I showed the case to the guy shooting it he stopped shooting and changed ammo. Seems he bought this hot ammo over the internet. Barsto makes a great replacement barrel with a fully supported chamber, but not to many people buy guns they have to change out the barrel to shoot safely. I have owned 40's, 10mm, 45Acp, 38 Super and prefer the 38 Super. I'm sure if Glock made a 38 Super I would need a Barsto barrel for it too.

1911crazy · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2010, 06:30:30 AM »

I just loaded up some 45acp, 185JHP's and they should do there job. I believe the 45acp with the 185gr in +p ammo has more power than the 10mm/40cal. A few years back when i compared them it did but today it maybe different I could be wrong. I like using max loads in my 1911 but these are just CCW loads. I don't shoot many at all because the hotter loads will hammer the 1911 apart in a standard 1911.

diggler1833 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 31, 2010, 11:32:41 AM »

I already had a .45 in a beautiful Colt Cold Cup NM when I went looking for another 1911. I got a great deal on a NIB Kimber 1911 in .40S&W and picked it up, although with some reservations in the back of my head.

That Kimber has been flawless for me through about 1500 rounds (I don't shoot it too often as it is my home defense pistol). It is ridiculously accurate with handloads for plinking, and I'm more than confident in the .40's capability to kill someone should the need arise. Any reservations that I had against the Kimber and .40S&W have been put to rest.

Arguements can be made in countless scenarios in the great 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP debate, with the vast majority of "gospel" being sworn left and right coming from individuals who have not had to rely on one of those calibers to actually save their life. I have yet to either, although I've been forced to carry a 9mm with plain old ball ammo a few times overseas, the thought came across my mind to just keep pulling the trigger if I had to.

I'm still a big fan of bullet construction and shot placement over anything else for these arguements. I'll give that the .45 leaves a slightly bigger hole, but I'll still feel confident enough in my .40 to keep my Colt put up unless to shoot at targets, and my Kimber out for other reasons.

Besides, if you already have a .45, why not try something else? Are you going to own a dozen 30-06's and nothing else?

As always, YMMV.