Author Topic: poor .223 accuracy (Read 1277 times)

30063030223357 · « **on:** March 19, 2010, 02:47:32 PM »

Purchased an H&R handi (camo) combo in .223 from dicks sporting goods in dec. 2009. Did a trigger job from perkloafm.com first thing and mounted a cabelas pineridge 6-18 scope. Can't get this gun to shoot much better than 1.7" three shot groups. Have ruled out the forearm, it won't shoot with it removed either! Shooting reloads with new rem. brass, H335 or W748 powder (26-27grains) CCI450 pirmers and my go to bullet, hornady 55 gr. spire point. I've tried other bullets but always go back to the hornady. They shoot good in my savage and dpms. Tried the scope that came with the gun to rule out the scope, Still shoots the same. Thought i'd try some loads i had for my savage. IMI brass,cci 450 primer, 26 gr. of H335 and hornady 55 gr. spsx., about the same load i've been shooting but with an SX bullet and bullet seated .040 deeper. (much more bullet jump). Couldn't believe it shot better??? Two groups under one inch! Why? So i tried seating the bullets deeper in my original loads, Didn't work. I can't believe the bullet would make the difference, since it's about the same bullet. Next i'm going to try neck sizing my once fired brass to get a tight fit in the chamber ( maybe i have an oversize chamber)? And will also try the SPSX bullets. Anybody having similar problems or have any ideas. I like this gun, but not if it won't shoot!

Yak Angler · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2010, 04:31:13 PM »

Well im sure most on here are getting much better accuracy then that with their .223's

Before anyone can offer any help we need to know a bit more , as you have left us with alot of variables

Please tell us more about which model .223 is it, heavy barrel/standard contour, length of barrel?

How much time between shots?

How many rounds have you shot through this gun?

What type of rest/ where is the rest postioned on the gun?

What have you tried for factory loads so far, etc the more basic info the better?

There are many more accuracy tips other than bullet seating and forearm mods in the FAQ section of this board. Have you read through that part of the forum yet?

LabRat2k3 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2010, 04:54:26 PM »

I mean no offense but I think it is a bit early to say that this rifle has poor accuracy. If I'm reading it right you have only tried two loads and one of them was shooting sub-MOA groups. Just because one rifle likes a load does not mean it will shoot well in another. You may just have to spend some time working up a load, different powders, different charge weights, and bullet jump among other things can make a huge difference on how the rifle shoots. You might also want to check the muzzle crown, sometimes they are not perfect from the factory. The scope mount is another area that can give you fits. Don't overlook the simple stuff, I do that all the time, then end up kicking myself after chasing my tail for days because of a loose screw or burr.

30063030223357 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2010, 05:04:53 PM »

This is a standard 22" barrel, which is still a heavy barrel but not an ultra varmint. I shot three fairly quick shots and shoot off a bipod. I've read that handis don't shoot good off a bi-pod, but! if it won't shoot off a bi-pod then it's not a varmint rifle!! I've shot off sand bags with the fore-end removed and it shoots the same as off the bi-pod. So this leads me to believe the problem is not the fore-end or the bi-pod. I don't shoot factory rounds so i can't compare but i can compare to my other .223 rifles with reloads. Many of my groups are with two rounds touching or nearly touching and the third opening up the group. And others are just an open group, nothing very consistant. It's very frustrating. My instincs tell me it may be light primer strikes from a sloppy chamber like i stated before or undersized brass. I have read about uneven lock-up, i do have a shiny spot on the lock-up shelve. I'll look into that more after i try the neck sized brass.

ssjohnnie · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2010, 05:07:56 PM »

Well here is my tail of me and a very good looking gun an H&R Ultra Varmint Thumbhole brown lam. we went round and round for almost a year and a haft did ever thing under the FAQ to this gun almost 500 in powders and primers and bullets scopes mounts and back to the factory two times(begged for a new barrel wouldn't do it) and the best this gun would ever shoot was 1 3/4 to 2 inchs not what i call ultra varmint and that was shooting a round ever 5 min. if you shot it fast as in pd dog hunts 3 to 4.5 inch would be what you get i really like this gun and tryed very hard to get it to shoot if it had shot like some of them here i would have a gun safe full of handis but it seems some times you get a good one and some times you don't so untill they get there QC under control i am done with them the Ultra was sold for 170.00 with scope and had a heck of a time getting that for it in these parts this is my tail and by no means am i saying they are all bad but for me life is to short to mess with them

30063030223357 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2010, 05:16:09 PM »

Forgot to mention i've put nearly 100 rounds through this rifle. Have tried several different bullets, but just the two powders which should be just fine for this caliber. Checked the scope base and mounts many times now. I haven't checked the muzzle crown. I'll have to read up on re-crowning the muzzle.

Frank V · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2010, 06:03:28 PM »

I pillar bedded the forearm & put a pressure point on one & I tried Hornaday 50gr SX bullets over H335 & it's a happy camper. Groups near 1/2" consistantly. Some say Handi's don't like pressure points, mine does. You might try it. I'd play with bullets & powder before I gave up. I'm not sure I agree about not being a varmint rifle if it won't shoot off shooting sticks, I've rifles that will consintantly shoot under an inch, but I can't get that kind of group with shooting sticks or the attatched bipods others seem to like. Keep at it, you will get it I think. Don't give up too soon. I wouldn't get too hung up on trying to get it to shoot what your other .223 likes, most times each rifle is a law unto it's self. Good luck.
Frank

necchi · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2010, 08:59:40 PM »

After reading all this the first thing that comes to mind is the shelf and latch fit.
The 45-70 I just got, some feller must have had trouble, the latch was only catching an 3/16-1/4" of the shelf on one side.
It's tuff to get a consistant lock-up with that little of contact.
Smoke the shelf with a candle or mark it with lipstick or whatever and check that?

Yak Angler · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2010, 05:07:40 AM »

Quote from: 30063030223357 on March 19, 2010, 05:16:09 PM

Forgot to mention i've put nearly 100 rounds through this rifle. Have tried several different bullets, but just the two powders which should be just fine for this caliber. Checked the scope base and mounts many times now. I haven't checked the muzzle crown. I'll have to read up on re-crowning the muzzle.

I think your handi is still in the break in stage, my .270 didn't start shooting well until about 100 rounds after i polished the bore. which was about 250 total rounds through the gun. alot of good suggestions from the other posts to due with muzzle crown and latch shelf those must be perfect for these rifles to shoot, and having only tried the two loads im sure you can find some improvement by fine tuning them too. I had to lightly file the latch shelf on mine to get a more consistant lock up, but the biggest improvements i got were from polishing the bore and free floating the barrel. Your light primer strikes could be caused by the way you pull the trigger, Handi's require you to fully depress it, if you stop pulling when the trigger breaks you will get inconsistant strikes, there is more on this in the FAQ'S.

From what you said in your first post your group size is about 1.7 " which is pretty good for a gun which at this point is basically an out of the box rifle. I think you could easily get this one to MOA or better it might just take a bit more work to get the basics totally covered.

MNSHOOTER · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2010, 06:09:27 PM »

We are talking about 1.7 in. groups at 100 yards right !! Most of the guys I shot with at the range would be very happy with that acuracy out of a 275 dollar rifle !!!! That being said , I have a 223 that will put any thing you feed it in one ragged hole at 100 yards . I bought the barrel off jimbo here on the site and did not even fit it to the frame ! It just plain shoots. I have a 45-70 I bought on this sight that you cant hit the side of a barn with after trying to shim to every frame I have [very loose pin with the shelf also stoned] I also have a 243 that after a lot off work will put 2 in the same hole with one out an inch or so like you talked about ! As far as my experances go you are about on par with how these rifles shoot . If the first shot is where you want it as it sounds from your post then the coyote or such is not going to care if the second or third opened up to 1.7 in. !!!!! Mark

necchi · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2010, 07:45:00 PM »

Quote from: MNSHOOTER on March 20, 2010, 06:09:27 PM

If the first shot is where you want it as it sounds from your post, then the coyote or such is not going to care
Mark

Good point, ya know I think we forget that sometimes as we strive for the perfect group.
Especially with break action single shot rifles

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2010, 05:59:21 AM »

One of the big problems with bench resting a tip-up action is that you get completely out of 'form' shot to shot. If you do not get back into exactly the same position for the recoil impulse you will not hit the same place! This group as described fits that description. Unless you have spent some real time as a bench rest competitor you will often miss the little mistakes you make that translate directly into a shot not falling within the group.
One of my tests is to shoot a 'proven' gun, similarly equiped to the test gun, on the same day, same conditions. I often find that I am shooting the same size groups (some days are just worse than others).
I would like to blame the gun, but usually its me........

briannmilewis · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2010, 03:53:37 AM »

From what I have read here, most everyone on this forum samples factory ammo first when they get a new Handi, seems like using reloads from day 1 results in a much bigger effort to find accuracy than if you start with factory ammo. Most shoot 50 - 100 rounds before they worry too much about accuracy. Some do not clean their rifle until they get the accuracy they want. FWIW

spikehorn · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2010, 06:58:06 AM »

I have the same gun in 308 win and they do not have standard contour bbls they are heavy bbls. Before I even shot the gun once I did the JB Bore paste thing mentioned in the FAQs. Put a Nikon Pro Staff 3X9X40 on it and sighted it in,at The end of sighting it in I shot a 1.5" group with rem. core lokt 150gr. As I put more rounds down it the groups are slowly tighteneing up. Try some factory loads, if you find one it likes dig up the load data for it and you have a starting point to develope a load for it.

Sourdough · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2010, 07:56:53 AM »

Now you know why I don't bother shooting for groups. I put out a 4" clay target at 100 yards, If I bust it I'm happy. Then I move it out to 200 yards, if I bust it I'm happy. If not I make adjustments till I do. Then I move out to 300 Yards, and do the same thing over. As long as I can bust that clay target I will hit the vitals of a Coyote or Wolf, that is all that matters. This is a hunting gun, not made for shooting paper. No need to beat myself up trying to get a smaller group, Just shoot it, the groups will get smaller as you get more comfortable with it and it becomes a part of you. If you shoot enough someday you will be able to pop a Coyote and not even worry about it. You will know it is dead before you pull the trigger. That is what you are really looking for.

dwalk · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2010, 12:28:41 PM »

i had a handi .223 that was sub-moa right out of the box...guess i got lucky.

another thing to beware of is the twist rate...the older handi's had a 1:12, if i remember correctly, and would not atabilize bullets over 55 gr very well.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2010, 03:48:47 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough on March 22, 2010, 07:56:53 AM

Now you know why I don't bother shooting for groups. I put out a 4" clay target at 100 yards, If I bust it I'm happy.

I got my sons more involved at the range by starting with paper and ending up on the 100 yard line busting clays...I am going to get the clay holders ($5 online not $12 at BassPro) you just stick in the ground before we start shooting this year. Good luck.

luciausarmy · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2010, 04:51:48 PM »

I just got a sb2 ultra varmint in 223 a month ago, was shooting very poor the first 25 shots then has gotten (still getting) consistently better. I have 100 total rounds through it so far and every ten rounds or so it gets tighter and tighter groups, shooting the 55 gr v-max's.

thejanitor · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2010, 05:26:19 PM »

Quote from: 30063030223357 on March 19, 2010, 02:47:32 PM

I can't believe the bullet would make the difference, since it's about the same bullet.

One word stands out to me in this statement "ABOUT" I have found some bullets can even vary lot to lot, it may not be the case here but it could be like comparing oranges to apples... just a thought. Brent

Sourdough · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2010, 08:54:03 PM »

I have weighed .223 bullets out of a box and found the variance very minimal. Usually less than + or - 1/10th of a grain. I don't think the minor variance will make that much difference with the .223. Especially since I seldom shoot more than 300 yards, 400 is usually my maximum, and then only when conditions are perfect.

30063030223357 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2010, 07:01:58 AM »

Thanks for all the replies! They've given me some ideas. First off, this is how i always shot for grouping and sighting in. In the prone position, bipod in front,sandbag under the butt ,lying on the ground. The only thing touching the gun is my shooting hand(to reduce any gun movement). letting the gun recoil without any resistance. This has always been a proven method for me with my other guns. Maybe not with the H&R? Maybe i'm not getting a complete trigger pull this way? Next time out i'm going to try shooting my normal loads and shoulder the gun more, this should stop the recoil let me get a more complete trigger pull. Also have neck sized some once fired brass and loaded with the same load. They seem to fit the chamber better. Will shoot both loads and compare. I really think this gun will shoot better. Have a 357 max that i'm still working with.. Got it from 5" 100 yard groups to 2.5" and after some fore end work i think it's going to be better. Just haven't got to try it yet. Then after i'm done perfecting these two, i hope to move onto a 45/70. Really intriged by this caliber, can't wait to get one.