Author Topic: 357 Mag Accuracy Testing (Read 1183 times)

Land_Owner · « **on:** March 20, 2010, 06:36:38 AM »

My Handi just isn't getting "there". I have shot a combined 300 rounds of Seller & Beloit 158 gr CJL-RN; Hornady 158 gr LeverEvolution; 158 gr cast SWC's, and 185 gr cast WC's since I took the rifle out of the box as new.

The best group was about 7 inches with the 185 gr WC's. The 158 gr bullets are all over the paper...if they hit it at all. The scope is tight. The barrel cleaned after every range session.

Today is reloading with the RCBS 5-0-5 scale versus progressive press. I am measuring 0.10 grain increment loads using Hodgden Clays (a VERY clean burning owder). If that powder does not work out accuratey, then I am trying IMR 700-X (another VERY clean burning powder). Failing these, I will try something else I guess.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2010, 07:17:09 AM »

Read this before you shoot if you haven't already.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,116451.msg1098375514.html#msg1098375514

lee1954 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2010, 07:31:21 AM »

land owner That isn't good ---------------- I'm shooting at 50 yards -and all cast,, the 166SWC is better then the 158SWC with gascheck -- I was useing Unique --now trying 2400 ---- at about 200 rounds it is getting better ... It is getting better in steps -- a shot or two and the pattern shrinks then stays the same for the next 50 or more rounds. .... I'm seating the bullet out,, long 1.71 inch and still not touching the rifleing. Now my patern is about 3 1/2 inches. If you are shooting at 100 yards we are both about the same..
I"ve also shot some 105 L RN with about a 1gr. of Bullseye just a small pop ... about like the .22 CB's...
I picked the Handi up a week ago and wondering about fire lapping -- or working on the crown and throat ---- but for now I'll keep shooting 'cuz it is getting better and it fun... DAN

gcrank1 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2010, 09:11:12 AM »

If you are shooting cast bullets sized .357ish they are probably too small. If you can try something in the .359-.360 range and it will chamber up and extract cleanly I'll bet they start grouping instead of patternng.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2010, 09:50:04 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

Read this before you shoot if you haven't already.

Some good points to consider for consistency and accuracy. I will print and take to the range to assure this old brain isn't forgetting something important. Not sure that I was doing all of these...but some of them for sure out of natural habit.

I have been thinking that a change in powder is warranted. Problem is, I have a LOT of 700X and Clays. I like that powder for its clean burning. Perhaps it just isn't the right powder for my Handi. A little dab'll do ya with 700X or Clays. Very HOT and sensitive powder. Tough to make a consistent charge, but goes "BANG" every time in my Ruger SP101!!!

gendoc · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2010, 09:54:30 AM »

for you go out.... load up you some with imr-4227 and anything 158gr jacketed.
there's your .357 handi basics 099....

OSOK · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2010, 02:04:22 PM »

Handi Basics #2 is one I am noticing on the new .357 trapper. I have noticed that the shiny mark on the barrel latch shelf is getting better (more accross the width and higher up) the more I shoot and work the action. I would immagine that if yours is still working in it may have some effect on accuracy.

v8r · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2010, 03:30:33 PM »

I mostly shoot .38 special +P out of mine.The ammo i use is the 125 grain HP,Remington bulk pack from Wally world.From 50 yards it will stack round after round on a 2" shoot n see target.It truly surprises everyone i have let shoot it.I don't have any idea if it is the 125 grain bullet,or the lower velocity the gun likes.I haven't done any accuracy testing with any .357 mag factory loads because it is so accurate with the .38s.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2010, 03:43:17 PM »

Dee,

On the #5 Handi basics sticky linked herein, there is mention of work that could be done to the fore end. I removed my fore end and almost dropped the barrel and scope on the concrete floor. It was't locked up. surprised me anyway. Now the synthetic fore end is on the reloading bench waiting for some work. I don't know if "floating" the barrel is the right thing to do with a synthetic stock or how. Possibly placing a shim between the stock and the barrel?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2010, 04:38:13 PM »

There are a couple methods to get the syn forend to work well, first it needs to be fitted so it almost won't stay on without the screw, I use a ¼" drive 1" drum sander that actually has a diameter of 1.1" to relieve just enough material from the concave face of the forend that fits against the front of the frame. On the latest one I used a steel washer on the barrel stud, it works on the new style checkered forend, I had to change the ID of the washer to .375" to fit the barrel stud, on the 260 Rem Superlight barrel it floats the barrel completely except for the contact at the stud, a thicker washer may be required for the 357 barrel. I did have to use a ¾" long screw tho, the factory screw is too short.

Tim

lee1954 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2010, 06:53:45 PM »

I try unsized lead , if it works -
I'll get a 360 sizer
I bumped my scope and it went way out -- it may not be the handi at all

My latch is still too tight,, And great chamber.. I almost don't have to resize the brass. and the extractor work great. I'm sure it will be a great shooter

Thanks Tim, for the forarm tip. I think I too could try your advice to Land _ Owner . Dan

MNSHOOTER · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2010, 07:27:36 PM »

If you have a 357 that will only give you 7" groups then I would not buy a lottery ticket if I were you !! That must be bad luck !! The 357's generaly shoot like a champ , and I am not sure I have ever had a handi that shot that bad unless there were serious issues, and I have had over 20 of them !! I have a 45-70 that was fitted before I got it and that thing is a mess. Other than that they will shoot if you follow the single shot program! Mark

OBXPilgrim · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2010, 03:18:15 AM »

I must have had the other 357 Mag that shot terrible, out of the box.

Many of the 357s have a very long throat. Mine would chamber loaded 360 Dan Wesson rounds before I reamed it to 357 Max. It stayed a 357 MAG for a couple years, using the 360 DW loads. It magically shot so much better having the HEAVY bullets seated to almost 357 MAX cartridge length in the DW brass. Mine shoots better even with 38 specials now too, BTW. I'm not so sure it was more a problem with the throat more than anything, and maybe reaming it took out the 'bad' spots. If you try cast again, try something more like Lee 158 RF bullet - I saw much better accuracy with a cast bullet with a smooth transition to full diameter size, than with a SWC.

Lately, I've floated the fore end and glass bedded the hanger... and haven't been to the range yet.

dovehunter · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2010, 03:18:43 AM »

LANDOWNER:

I too have been having problems achieving accuracy with cast bullets in my .357 barrel. I have tried different powders, etc. and my .357-sized commercial cast bullets shoot all over the place at 50-yds. It's the same whether I use .38 or .357 cases. Yet, on the other hand, I get beautiful groups - at or under an inch - with either my own handloads using Hornady 125 gr. XTP hollow points (over UNIQUE) or Fed. factory loaded 125 gr. hollow points. I am going to try some commercial cast bullets sized to .358-.359 and see what happens.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2010, 03:51:15 AM »

All really good thoughts guys. I don't have any IMR-4227, but will consider purchasing some. The cast bullets are Hornady, Bullseye, and Speer SWC's to complement my SWC "Jones". I tried to determine the length of the leade in the Chamber with a dummy round. It is long. Certainly longer than the chamber of my Ruger SP101 revolver, so I made the OAL of the cartridges 1.630", where the rounds will just fit the Ruger. We'll see today how that works.

Tim,

The concave forearm was "stuck" against the convex face of the frame - hard. I could not figure out, for a while, just how the forearm was supposed to come off the rifle after removing the screw. Then the whole barrel and works almost fell on the floor.

So I need locate a 1" dia. dowel to sand that interface. Doing this job right, so it does not show afterward or mess up the forearm, is the key.

After resurfacing the forearm end, should I also use a spacer/washer?

The longer screw that you used, was that purchased from NEF or H&R? I can root around in my stash of nuts and bolts for one that might work.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2010, 04:34:44 AM »

One of the best situations you can have is a close enough chamber that it doesnt need resizing and a cast bullet that comfortably fits into the fire-formed case mouth with a little pressure, yet still chambers up and extracts cleanly. Use no crimp, unless you need a tad for hunting loads, single shots dont need it otherwise and it can distort the bullet. The key is bullets that fit the throat closely.
Decap/recap, charge with powder, hand fit the bullet (or lightly press in) and shoot. Quick, clean, easy, and brass lasts forever.
At lead bullet velocities the case expansion usually is mild enough that follow up reloads dont get sticky. If they do, back off the load a bit until its OK.
If a rifle wont shoot with bullets that fit this way the barrel is no good, plain and simple. If you want to shoot lead and cast your own, often as cast dia. fits pretty well and if you have a lubrisizer it should just skim the bullet while applying the lube.
If you want to shoot jacketed, you are stuck with the factory diameters, and if they wont shoot factory loads it wont shoot reloads, you have a bad barrel. Rechamber might work, but if not?

Land_Owner · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2010, 04:38:31 AM »

A piece of 3/4" SCH 40 PVC outside diameter is 1.050" and fits the forearm concave end PERFECTLY with a single piece of 220 grit sandpaper. Carefully, so as not to remove the tipped ends that fit the shape of the receiver, sand the left side, interior and right side simultaneously and equally. The forearm now glides effortlessly on and off without binding.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2010, 06:23:56 AM »

Sounds like you got the fit "adjusted", the forend screw is a standard ¼"-20 thread, flathead machine screws are available at Ace and True value or any good hardware store, Phillips head may be hard to find, but socket and slotted head are common.

Tim

manatee1947 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2010, 06:51:19 AM »

I was originally concerned also with mine. But then I shot quite a few jacketed through it, probably 150 rounds, got them down to 1 1/2 groups @ 75 yards. Now I am working on cast loads. I have a 185 gr Lee RN mold, size to 358 and drip lubed. I am seating out to a 1.600 OAL in 38 Sp cases, and 3.7 gr of Unique. 0.8 groups. 5.5 gr of Blue Dot 1.0 groups (at 50 yards on the cast). Thats not so bad! I have an RCBS 357429 HP that makes 165 gr HP's that I am going to work on next. Good luck, just work at it.

gendoc · « **Reply #19 on:** March 21, 2010, 11:08:28 AM »

quote from gcrank1
If you want to shoot jacketed, you are stuck with the factory diameters, and if they wont shoot factory loads it wont shoot reloads, you have a bad barrel. Rechamber might work, but if not?
[/quote]

gcrank,
i don't quite understand that....
i've took many firearms that would'nt shoot factory ammo worth a crap and turned them into tack drivers with
developed handloads....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 21, 2010, 12:26:35 PM »

I'm working on my 270 Ackley which has a fluted bull barrel which I added the new style syn stock, without any washer, the forend is barely floated, I wanted a little more float tho. I found out that a .500" OD x .375" ID washer that's .100" thick will float the forend nicely. I made the washer from a steel spacer than Ace Hardware sells since I didn't have a washer that small with that big a hole in it, the factory screw works fine. I made the washer by cutting a piece of the spacer with a tubing cutter, but a hack saw would work too, the small OD allows the washer to seat inside the dished out recess in the forend.

Tim

briannmilewis · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2010, 12:58:39 PM »

Start of broken record: "Stop cleaning the rifle after every range session, with the exception of some barrel solvent and a bore snake one time, or don't clean the barrel at all." End of broken record. I guess in the 21st Century we should say broken "CD".

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 21, 2010, 02:18:32 PM »

Gendoc, you are right, of course, often load developement can and does result in success. I should have previewed my post. I meant to say,'if it wont shoot factory and it wont shoot reloads, its a bad barrel'.
Obvious, I know, but sometimes it needs to be said. The factory wont care if it wont shoot your reloads (and they wont warrantee for reloads) and they will test it with factory if you return it. If you rechamber and it still doesnt work, its still yours, they wont replace it.
So, I advocate proceeding with caution in modifications.

Deavis · « **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2010, 08:29:56 PM »

Good luck... mine was load specific... oddly for such a simple rifle... if there is such a thing, the varibles really REALLY show in the handi .357 in my LIMITED experience. If you want it to... and work at it... it will perform.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2010, 12:43:53 AM »

Went to the range yesterday with all expectation of wringing out some decent accuracy. It rained all afternoon, HARD. So the range will have to wait for another day. I the mean time, I will look for a spacer to help float the barrel.