Author Topic: Thought Police and your rights  (Read 951 times)

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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Thought Police and your rights
« on: March 20, 2010, 09:45:39 AM »
http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/16/pre-crime-policing/

Pre-Crime Policing
Allegedly “disgruntled” man has his guns seized, and “voluntarily” surrenders to two SWAT teams and dozens of police officers for a crime that hadn’t been committed
Radley Balko | March 16, 2010

To hear them tell it, the five police agencies who apprehended 39-year-old Oregonian David Pyles early on the morning of March 8 thwarted another lone wolf mass murderer. The police "were able to successfully take a potentially volatile male subject into protective custody for a mental evaluation," announced a press release put out by the Medford, Oregon, police department. The subject had recently been placed on administrative leave from his job, was "very disgruntled," and had recently purchased several firearms. "Local Law Enforcement agencies were extremely concerned that the subject was planning retaliation against his employers," the release said. Fortunately, Pyles "voluntarily" turned himself over to police custody, and the legally purchased firearms "were seized for safekeeping."

This voluntary exchange involved two SWAT teams, police officers from Medford and nearby Roseburg, sheriff's deputies from Jackson and Douglas counties, and the Oregon State Police. Oregon State Police Sgt. Jeff Proulx explained to South Oregon's Mail Tribune why the operation was such a success: "Instead of being reactive, we took a proactive approach."

There's just one problem: David Pyles hadn't committed any crime, nor was he suspected of having committed one. The police never obtained a warrant for either search or arrest. They never consulted with a judge or mental health professional before sending out the military-style tactical teams to take Pyle in.

"They woke me up with a phone call at about 5:50 in the morning," Pyles told me in a phone interview Friday. "I looked out the window and saw the SWAT team pointing their guns at my house. The officer on the phone told me to turn myself in. I told them I would, on three conditions: I would not be handcuffed. I would not be taken off my property. And I would not be forced to get a mental health evaluation. He agreed. The second I stepped outside, they jumped me. Then they handcuffed me, took me off my property, and took me to get a mental health evaluation."

By noon the same day, Pyles had already been released from the Rogue Valley Medical Center with a clean bill of mental health. Four days later the Medford Police Department returned Pyle’s guns, despite telling him earlier in the week—falsely—that he'd need to undergo a second background check before he could get them back. On Friday the Medford Police Department put out a second press release, this time announcing that the agency had returned the "disgruntled" worker's guns, and "now considers this matter closed.

That seems unlikely. Pyles' case has spurred outrage in the gun rights community. Kevin Starrett of the Oregon Firearms Federation has been advising Pyles, and helped get his guns back. Oregon-based syndicated conservative talk radio host Lars Larson has taken up the story. And Pyles is now attorney shopping for a possible civil rights lawsuit.

At root behind this case and others like it is our naïve, hopeful, and sometimes even dangerous belief that every horrible shooting spree or lone-wolf act of terrorism can be prevented. We seem unable to accept the idea that bad people will occasionally do bad things. Every new mass shooting spurs an urge to assign blame beyond the shooter: What political ideology inspired him? Who missed the “warning signs,” and why wasn't he apprehended ahead of time? Gun retailers are scrutinized and vilified, even when they've complied with the law. In ensuing days and weeks, politicians mull new laws, often both ineffective and constricting on our liberty.

There's nothing wrong with looking for signs that someone is about to snap, and if he's putting up multiple red flags, we'd certainly want law enforcement to investigate, possibly to chat with the person and his friends and family. And obviously if someone has made specific threats, a criminal investigation should follow. But that's a far cry from what happened to Pyles.

Pyles' problems began last June after a series of grievances with his employer, the Oregon Department of Transportation. "This was always a professional thing for me," he says. "It was never personal. We were handling the grievances through the process stipulated in the union contract." Pyles declined to discuss the nature of the complaints, citing stipulations in his contract.

On March 4, Pyles was placed on administrative leave, which required him to work from home. On March 5, 6, and 7, after getting his income tax refund, he made three purchases of five firearms. Pyles describes himself as a gun enthusiast, who had already owned several weapons. All three new purchases required an Oregon background check, which would have prohibited the transactions had Pyles ever been convicted of a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, or been committed by the state to a mental health institution. Pyles says he has no criminal record, and says he never threatened anyone in his office. (A specific threat of violence would have likely brought a criminal charge.) The Oregon State Police, the Medford Police Department, and the Oregon Department of Transportation did not respond to requests for comment.

"In my opinion, the apprehension of David Pyles was a violation of Oregon's kidnapping laws," says James Leuenberger, a criminal defense attorney who is also advising Pyles. "He definitely deserves to be compensated for what they did to him, but even if he wins a civil rights suit, that will just result in the officers' employers paying for their mistakes." That of course means the final tab will be paid by Oregon's taxpayers, not the offending cops. "I want these law enforcement officials held personally responsible," Leuenberger says. "I want them criminally charged."

It's hard to see that happening. Joseph Bloom, a psychiatrist at Oregon Health & Science University and a specialist in civil commitment law, says the police who apprehended and detained Pyles were likely acting under the cover of Oregon law. Bloom says the police are permitted to make a determination on their own to take someone in for a mental health evaluation—there's no requirement that they first consult with a judge or mental health professional. Bloom believes this is a wise policy. "It's important to remember that this is a civil process," he says. "There's no arrest, these people aren't being taking to jail. It's not a criminal action."

So SWAT teams, guns, and handcuffs...but not a criminal action? And what if Pyles had refused to "voluntarily" surrender to the police? "Well, yes," Bloom says. "I guess then it would become a criminal matter."

If what happened to Pyles is legal, in Oregon or elsewhere, we need to take a second look at the civil commitment power. Even setting aside the SWAT team overkill in Medford, there's something awfully discomfiting about granting government authorities the power to yank someone from their home and drag them in for a mental health evaluation based on a series of actions that were perfectly legal, especially with no prior oversight from a judge, or guidance from a psychiatrist.

"The idea that Pyles turned himself in voluntarily is ridiculous," says Starrett, the gun rights activist. "There's nothing voluntary about waking up to a SWAT team outside your home, then having a police negotiator call and suggest you surrender. They had no arrest warrant. But Pyles only had one option. If he didn't come out on his own, they were going to come in to get him."

Even if the apprehension of Pyles was legal, the seizure of his guns wasn't. Because civil commitment laws aren't criminal in nature, they don't carry authorization for the police to search a private residence. According to Pyles, he closed the door behind him as he left his home. Because the police didn't have a search warrant, they had no right to even enter Pyles' home, much less seize guns inside that he bought and possessed legally.

For a potential mass murderer, Pyles is remarkably placid and big-picture about what happened to him. "I've been looking for a new job for months," he says. "But given the economy, I'm pretty lucky to be getting a paycheck, even given all of this. For me, this is about civil rights. This seems like something the NRA and the ACLU can agree on. South Oregon is big gun country. If something like this can happen here, where just about everyone owns a gun, it can happen anywhere."
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2010, 10:21:35 AM »
Incredible! That man could be anyone on this forum or even the United States. LE is beginning to worry me(understatement)!  Does Gestapo come to mind!

Reckon his Boss ratted him out!  ???

Some supervisors will make you crazy and push you into a corner, then make out like you are! It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy!

Thanks for the post, I will keep an eye on this.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2010, 11:11:07 AM »

Reckon his Boss ratted him out!  ???

Some supervisors will make you crazy and push you into a corner, then make out like you are! It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy!

Thanks for the post, I will keep an eye on this.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head right there. I work in Law Enforcement, and I can easily envision how this guy could have been set up by his employer! I willl bet you that he was winning his greivance........
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2010, 11:16:17 AM »
Prolly!

Hey on the LE angle what do you make of it since you "speak the language"  ;)
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2010, 02:32:15 PM »
I think the guy is probably going to win any lawsuit against the state and city agencies, but the officers themselves will be protected from personal liability. If he can find evidence of wrongfull reporting on the part of his employer they will end up paying too.

On a personal level, I wouldn't have had anything to do that mess if my department were involved. (I'd get sick or something so I wasn't there) The lack of warrents and the search of the residence was serious violation of the guys rights. If they had enough Probable Cause to get a warrent they should have gotten one. lacking that they had no business going in to the residence.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2010, 05:09:06 PM »
Thanks, I needed to hear that. I am getting paranoid in my old age.

We need to at least keep some simblance of liberty and sanity in this brave new world.  I hope he sues and wins a bucket full of money. He may have been just like many of us, he had some time since he was on administrative leave and went gun shopping.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2010, 05:51:33 PM »
What really bother me about this is: "There, but for the grace of God, go I"!

As you noted, that could happen to anyone of us! During the course of my career I have had the wonderful opportunity (sarcasm) to be on leave for job related stress. As a gunowner, with a diagnoses of job related stress, how easy would have been for a law enforcement agency to do something like that to me at that time!?!?!?  :-\
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline cwall

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2010, 10:59:28 PM »
Sounds like the state is using tactics started by Stalin in the USSR.  Many people were hauled off to insane hospitals and never heard from again.

Dangerous thing when the state can haul you off without any due process.  Where does it end?

Offline Mikey

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2010, 02:01:27 AM »
"Where does it end?"  At the muzzle of your smoking gun Mr. American citizen, that's what the hay the 2nd Amendment is about. 

So there are lessons for all of us:  Although some LEOs might call in sick in a situation like this, there are many who won't; if you think you fit this citizen's category or that someone may cast you in the same light, develop a plan - nobody gets in and if ya do, ya don't get out.  Develop a escape route that takes you out behind them, either to escape or to fight - there is nothing dishonorable about shooting communists and tyrants in the back as it is a effective means of disposing of them, and once out, take the fight to them.  jmtcw.

Offline rwng

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 06:35:44 AM »
"Where does it end?"  At the muzzle of your smoking gun Mr. American citizen, that's what the hay the 2nd Amendment is about. 

So there are lessons for all of us:  Although some LEOs might call in sick in a situation like this, there are many who won't; if you think you fit this citizen's category or that someone may cast you in the same light, develop a plan - nobody gets in and if ya do, ya don't get out.  Develop a escape route that takes you out behind them, either to escape or to fight - there is nothing dishonorable about shooting communists and tyrants in the back as it is a effective means of disposing of them, and once out, take the fight to them.  jmtcw.

That's all well and good but it seems in todays world, the innocent civillian is always wrong. The only way a person has rights, is if they are true scumbags. Then for some reason the law can't touch 'em.

Just to give another account of police taking liberties. In Indiana, my freind was awakened from his house boat at a private yacht club. One of the members had recently been nabbed for DUI so the police came over at 0200 and checked license plates at the docks. They found his car and roused him out of bed, asking him how he got there. (I guess they were trying to bust him driving w/o a license) His wife was with him and she drove but who do they think they are? This was after an anniversary party at the club. The land is private and very secluded.
"Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace" J. M.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2010, 09:16:37 AM »
Mikey has had the courage to sound off with the truth.
how many have the guts to join him. I'm ready.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2010, 01:11:31 PM »
Well, I admire Mikey for his forthrightness. However my stance is that there is nothing to be gained by giving The Thought Police any advance warning of my ultimate intentions...whatever they might be. And rest assured, we aren't the only ones reading this board.

Having said that, I've been following a thread on another board regarding this very issue. The following is one of the posts I made there:

 
Quote
When I think about what our forefathers went through to secure their freedom, I can't beleive how far we have sunk. They pledged their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor for freedom from this very kind of thing. The men who who signed the Declaration of Independance put everything on the line to stand up to a government that was less intrusive than what we have now. Do any of know the facts about what happened to some of those men and their families at the hand of the British/ Look it up sometime, it's scary reading, some of them died, some had their entire families wiped out, their homes destroyed...everything, to be free of this very sort of thing! (The Brits had a thing about nailing those who stood up to them and signed that famous document, much like some aspects of our current government have a thing about taking away our freedoms now)

I worry too...I worry a LOT!


Interestingly enuff, no one on that board responded to the above comment...AND IT IS A FIREARMS RELATED BOARD!!!!!!!!! ???

Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Thought Police and your rights
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2010, 04:18:45 PM »
Quote
However my stance is that there is nothing to be gained by giving The Thought Police any advance warning of my ultimate intentions

Kinda what I was thinking. Not that Mikey dont have courage but it may be a prudent thing to just know what you might do when the time comes than to broadcast it.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."