Author Topic: 308/3006 game performance (Read 1214 times)

bronco73401 · « **on:** March 29, 2010, 05:15:10 PM »

How much of a difference is there on game (whitetail, elk) is there between the 308win and the 30-06 in a handi? I know a long barreled 06 makes a good elk gun, and a carbine length 308 is a good whitetail gun. The reason I ask is that most handi barrels are 22 inches. I have a 308 barrel coming, just thinking of an all around type cartridge. I have 223, 243, 7mm mag, 30-30 and 45-70 just wanting something new.

Lance

pricecw · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2010, 05:44:08 PM »

From Hodgdon's site:

Bullet Weight (Gr.)    Manufacturer    Powder    Bullet Diam.    C.O.L.    Grs.      Vel. (ft/s)     Pressure      Grs.      Vel. (ft/s)    Pressure

30-06
168 GR. HDY HPBT     Hodgdon       H4895     .308"       3.230"     43.0     2574     41,200 CUP     47.5     2789     50,000 CUP

308 Win
168 GR. SIE HPBT     Hodgdon     H4895     .308"       2.800"     41.0     2551     38,300 CUP     43.5     2703     49,500 CUP

I just picked one load, and to me the two look to be twins.

I usually hunt a 30-06, but also have a .308. The 30-06 put my elk down very nicely this year, most of the camp I am in carries them (I am currently loading 180gr and use the same load on deer and elk).

--Carl

Ultra25-06 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2010, 05:56:55 PM »

I think you will like the 308. The only two rifles my wife owns consist of a 10/22 and a M700 308. She almost has me convinced that it is all I need also, however I enjoy variety. She uses her 308 on every thing from rock chucks, antelope, deer, elk and black bear; so I think it will do you fine. Oh if you reload talk about variety, the twist rate may be your only limiting factor. A couple of real sweet loads can be found on the nosler site using the 125 BT and the 180 BT.

Kal52 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:12:35 PM »

I have a 308, takes whitetails down nicely, I dont think itll make much difference if I had used a 30-06, maybe a bit more recoil as all, I havent shot a deer with our 06, I just dont really like it so much.

I have not shot an elk, so I cant help much there, though Id assume it would be just fine, It be the gun Id use if I were to go elk hunting.

Good luck

Dave

Yak Angler · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:43:14 PM »

I don't feel there is significant difference between the two, from the rifles you listed your .243 IMHO would be your best all around rifle if only using factory loads. If your reloading either the 308 or 30-06 will be capable of downing anything on this continent too.

bronco73401 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2010, 07:03:18 PM »

I would think that the 243 is a little on the light side for elk. That is why i was thinking of the 308/3006 class of caliber. The 243 is a good deer and antelope round, I was going to use it for deer along with my 3030. I think it would do number on coyotes as well.
Lance

OSOK · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2010, 07:29:37 PM »

You would have to go past the 165/168 gr. bullets to find a difference. 180's and up the .30-06 has the advantage...by a very slim margin. As always, it comes down to bullet placement being more important than the cartridge. Use your .308 and trust it. Find a load it likes and practice like crazy. I hunt with a .30-06 and use 180 gr. bullets. They do less damage to the meat and always pass through, leaving me 2 holes for a blood trail instead of 1...and my rifles likes them, grouping at around 1" at 100 yards.

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2010, 01:06:48 AM »

everything from field mice to moose with a .308. Including elk. You'll want to use at least a 165 in it for the bigger critters, and I felt more comfortable with a 180, but they're probably not necessary. Looking back over my records, I don't recall taking a head of game past 200 yards, so I could've used a .30-30 to take the same animals. Good hunting skills make a bigger difference in bagging game than what rifle you have in your hands.
There's lots of elk get killed with .243's, but I won't. If you've ever run across a carcass or animal with a festering non-lethal wound, you'll come to the conclusion that someone needed more gun, and really needed a big dose of ethics, experience, and perserverance to make a better shot. The animals deserve that much from the hunter.

carbineman · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2010, 02:34:19 AM »

As others have stated until you reach the 180 grain bullet the .308 will do most of what the 30-06 will do. With less propellant also. After that the -06 with larger case capacity comes into play with just all around better velocity for the most part.

Now if you use Barnes Bullets this seems to negate the bullet weight factor. I loaded some 130 grain XBT .308 rounds for my friends Savage rifle, and he easily took elk with this round. I have heard of others doing the same. Barnes bullets seem to work well with lighter for caliber rounds than a conventional bullet as they seem to retain their weight and integrity better than a conventional lead core bullet. YMMV. I personally have never recovered a Barnes X bullet from dead game animals.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2010, 02:58:05 AM »

M1 Garand is a 30-06, and its successor, the M14, is a .308. Both were terrific battle weapons.

xhare · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2010, 03:06:12 AM »

Like others have said, the 30-06 will handle the larger bullets a little better. The two cartridges will handle small bullets about the same with the 06 pushing them a little faster depending on the particular load used. For Elk, picking the right bullet and putting it in the right place is far more important than the minor difference between the 308 and 30-06.

Daman · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2010, 03:25:03 AM »

I hunt with a 30-06 because I don't have a 308. That is the only reason I have for shooting the '06 over the 308. I will probably never buy myself a 308, but that is probably what my wife will get next cause she doesn't care for the 30-06 recoil.

Daman

bronco73401 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2010, 03:59:22 AM »

Thanks for all the input! I think I'll stick with the 308.

Lance

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2010, 04:05:14 AM »

In a Handi...the advantage of a long barreled the 30-06 over the 308 is when you hand load for them. The 30-06 has a lot more usable case capacity,since it is underloaded in many factory offered loads to keep it within safe working pressures of all of the older rifles on the market. The 308 is a much newer cartridge and is already loaded pretty much to it's max.

The velocity difference is not as near as what most published factory loads state for the 30--06 while most published data for the 308 is pretty much on the money.I've found that one can gain an a-lot by hand loading and still stay with in the confines of the rifles rating with the 30-06.This is why I choose to have a 26" Handi built instead of a 24" 308 first.

In a 22" barrel..there really isn't much difference between the 2..put either in a longer 26" version and the 30-06 will give substantially higher velocities if loaded to the max for each.

If you are loading to SAMMI spec's..then you will see about 100-150 fps across the board higher velocity with a longer barreled 30-06..and even higher if you choose to load hotter.

It's a personal choice if you choose to take advantage of the extra case capacity of the 30-06,the down side is the extra recoil generated.

On game..the advantage comes with the extra velocity at longer ranges..it will allow you ( if you are capable of using it) to take game further away since each bullet manufacture has a velocity threshold both for maximum velocity and also a minimum velocity will the bullet won't readily expand. Also the extra velocity helps with wind drift at longer ranges when used with high BC bullets.

For the majority if your only shooting whitetail size game with in 200-300 yards it won't matter a great deal which cartridge you go with..they both will do an outstanding job..The bigger the game and the further away my choice is the bigger case shooting a bigger bullet faster..

Here's the story...The do it all 30-06 from Mice to Moose..It's a good read..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209996/?tag=content;col1

Mac

pricecw · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2010, 05:09:56 PM »

OK, figured with the talk of 180's, since that is what I load in the 30-06, and plan for the .308 I have, I grabbed from Hodgdon's site again. Grabbed same powder as above.

Bullet Weight (Gr.)    Manufacturer    Powder    Bullet Diam.    C.O.L.    Grs.      Vel. (ft/s)    Pressure      Grs.      Vel. (ft/s)    Pressure

30-06
180 GR. SIE SPBT     Hodgdon       H4895     .308"       3.300"     41.0     2427     38,100 CUP     46.0     2638     48,800 CUP

308 Win
180 GR. SPR SP    Hodgdon    H4895     .308"       2.800"     40.0     2454     41,200 CUP     42.5     2595     49,700 CUP

Again, looking at min and max loads, I would recommend you buy whichever strikes your fancy. I have heard a lot about both of these cartridges, and how they are better than the other, but realistically, I don't see it. I tend to hunt the 30-06, since I carry one, my brother carries one, the kids carry them, my other brother carries it, and 2 of the other 3 people in our camp carry them. We are also slowly locking in on a 180 gr load that shoots very well in all of the rifles.

The goal is 1 load we all carry.

Anyway, either will work, and I can't imagine having an issue carrying either for elk in the woods. I keep getting tempted to take the 308 out, but the stated shared ammo makes me take the 700 in 06 (that and it is a tack driver).

--Carl

Sourdough · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2010, 05:58:11 PM »

Ballisticly the .308 is just below the 30-06, as you can see by the posted charts. From what I have read and my own experience the optimum bullet for the .308 is the 165gr. Yes it will shoot heavier bullets, but too much velocity and range is given up in the process. The optimum bullet for the 30-06 is the 180gr.

I carried a .308 for 14 years, and liked it. Then I got a 30-06. Have not shot the .308 in 20 years now. I will not hesitate to shoot a Moose or Grizzly with my 30-06. Have killed several Moose, Caribou, and Black Bears, with it. Have seen many Moose walk away after being shot with a .308, never to be found.

Worst case scenario, say you are hunting Elk. Elk live in the same country as Grizzlies. What happens when suddenly there is a Grizzly coming straight at you? Which would you rather have in your hand. I learned 40 years ago, (when i came to Alaska) you don't carry a gun for what you are hunting, but you carry a gun for what might be hunting you. With the increase in wildlife in the lower 48, this is the new way I would look at it now.

achildofthesky · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2010, 01:32:19 AM »

I am scratching my head at the choice of powder for the comparison??? There are much better performing powders suitable for both. Maybe I missed something... Both those loads seem really slow compared to what can be had for either cal.

patty

Mad Dog · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2010, 02:59:46 AM »

Patty, I'm kinda with you. While I have no experience with the .308, I do with the 30-06. I would have thought that imr 4350, orH4831, would be the go-to powders for the 06.

Mad Dog

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2010, 04:02:28 AM »

Quote from: Mad Dog on March 31, 2010, 02:59:46 AM

Patty, I'm kinda with you. While I have no experience with the .308, I do with the 30-06. I would have thought that imr 4350, orH4831, would be the go-to powders for the 06.

Mad Dog

The 4350's have always been go to powder..

180 GR. SIE SPBT    Hodgdon    H4350    .308"    3.300"    52.0    2543    37,800 CUP    57.5    2798    49,300 CUP

180 GR. SIE SPBT    Hodgdon    H4831    .308"    3.300"    54.0    2447    34,700 CUP    60.0C    2710    44,300 CUP

Even then it's still loaded at SAMMI specs for the cartridge..Loading higher is no guarantee of higher velocity but as it is the Handi can take more..but again that will depend on the rifle and components used..
One of the better 308 loads..

180 GR. SPR SP    IMR    IMR 4064    .308"    2.800"    40.7    2445    44,100 PSI    45.2C    2683    58,200 PSI

The 308 has way less case capacity than the o6'..Since we are talking Handi's here..most of the time the throats are a little long on each so you can load both bullets out quite a bit..but you will find many of the 308 loads are already compressed charges or close to it...there's a saying....there's no replacement for displacement or something like that..

My favorite bullet weight is the 165-168 grain variety..the books show loads right at 3000fps..so..couple this with a longer barrel..well...you can really reach out there with that type of loading if you want..but if the shots are 300 yards and under..there really isn't much difference..unless it's like Sourdough said..you are the one being hunted..

Mac

Default_Required · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2010, 03:10:21 PM »

308 WIN : 150 GR. NOS BT Hodgdon Varget .308" 2.800" 44.0 2788 43,300 CUP 47.0C 2937 50,300 CUP

30-06 SPG. : 150 GR. NOS BT Hodgdon Varget .308" 3.250" 47.0 2808 42,600 CUP 51.0 2975 50,000 CUP

The 06 really takes its commanding lead over the 308 win when you get into the heavier loads.

I have always thought of it like this, If I'm needing a bullet in the 125-168gr range then the 308 is my choice , If its the 180-240 range then I will go with the 06

bronco73401 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2010, 06:29:02 PM »

Thanks again for all the responses. Maybe I'll go for both. Can you have too many rifles?

I will have to admit, I do like 30 cal rifles. Maybe a 300 win mag is in my future.

Lance

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2010, 04:50:36 AM »

Varget is a good powder for the 308..I've had a lot of good luck with it..but I prefer using the H4350 and IMR 4320 and IMR 4895 for the o6'..the loads are more tweakable IMHO..

150 GR. NOS BT    Hodgdon    H4350    .308"    3.250"    56.0    2792    37,100 CUP    62.0C    3068    48,400 CUP

150 GR. NOS BT    IMR    IMR 4320    .308"    3.250"    49.0    2850    51,600 PSI    52.3    3016    58,000 PSI

50 GR. NOS BT    IMR    IMR 4895    .308"    3.250"    49.0    2856    49,400 PSI    53.0    3009    56,700 PSI

The closer I get to being 100% case capacity with the loads generally the lower ES/SD I get..The pressure maps can give you a rough idea of where the loads are in relation to this..as long as you are carefully watching for pressure signs..

This isn't knocking the 308...it is a fine round and very efficient..but to me..(my way of thinking anyway)..having a single shot means making the first shot count..and that means maximizing the load for it when using one as your primary rifle (which I am now) at all ranges where I am hunting .Plus having a lot more leeway to be able to tweak the load is something I like to be able to do for them.

One thing I have never understood is why NEF then H&R and now Remington has never offered a longer bull barrel for the 308..Remington has a 26" Sendaro...no reason not to incorporate it into a Handi-Rifle...if they did offer one..it would be neck & neck with a 22" 30-06 across the board..and do it with less powder to boot...Having a pure target 308 Handi is high on my pure want list for as long as I can remember..and I know I am not alone in this either..Oh well...I can dream about having one made one day before I kick the bucket..which is why I got the 24" 243 bull barrel...sooner or later Wayne is going to get it and build me one..

Bronco...get both..they both are really good..

Mac

achildofthesky · « **Reply #22 on:** April 02, 2010, 08:43:08 AM »

Quote from: Mad Dog on March 31, 2010, 02:59:46 AM

Patty, I'm kinda with you. While I have no experience with the .308, I do with the 30-06. I would have thought that imr 4350, orH4831, would be the go-to powders for the 06.

Mad Dog

Agreed...

For quite some time I have been fixed on either IMR or H4350 for the 30-06. Better than good accuracy, very good velocity and easy to find. I would like to give varget a whirl too some day but I am not feeling bad about not trying it yet. Mebbe get some this weekend if'n we hit Tulsa.

I started reloading at 12 (Christmas gift) and used IMR 4320 back then for 125gr Sierras and they were a ball on Woodchux.

Right now, I have been getting my powders pared down some to H4350 for 30-06, H4895 (for 30-30 & maybe 45-70), H4198 for 45-70, W296/H110 & Unique for 44 Mag (Unique for plinkie loads in the 45-70). Had a friend give me a jug of W296 so I reckon I am set for the foreseeable future there and I scored 7 pounds of H4350 last year when they were in front of me and not marked up.

There are lots of great powders that will work in the 30-06 or 308 but once I find a accurate load I lock it in, load up and salt away a big heaping batch. Don't need to reinvent the wheel so to speak.

I haven't shot my handi 30-06 yet and will try a couple old standards in it once I get it scoped.

Be safe all and have a great weekend
Patty

pricecw · « **Reply #23 on:** April 02, 2010, 05:04:17 PM »

Quote from: achildofthesky on March 31, 2010, 01:32:19 AM

I am scratching my head at the choice of powder for the comparison??? There are much better performing powders suitable for both. Maybe I missed something... Both those loads seem really slow compared to what can be had for either cal.

patty

Don't scratch your head, it was random. Just went and pulled a random load that had both listed for the 168 from Hodgdon's site, then looked at the numbers. When I pulled the 180's, I just grabbed the same powder as previous.

Anyway, it's not what I load, just a point of comparison.

--Carl

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 03, 2010, 04:01:45 AM »

Question of performance in the field......six 'o one, half dozen 'o the other. If you put the bullet, proper for the game, where it lives it will not know the difference in several hundered feet of velocity.