Contender question

[TRM-1]

Well if the FFL dealer does a background check on  the gun with serial number XXXX and then later that gun is used in a crime even after you have sold it or traded it to someone else they may still be knocking on your door to establish the chain of ownership.  So technically not registered BUT.

[jpred1]

Understood. So if I ever sell one ,I will need a bill of sell with serial # and all locked up in safety deposit box or just go to dealer ( the proper way) and do a FFL transfer of ownwership. Im not the only one dumb to these laws, we have lil flea markets everywhere and trader magizines where I have purchased several guns with cash only, meaning they are actually logged in someone elses names.

[TRM-1]

If you go by your local (and the federal) laws you should be fine.

[Keith L]

It makes no difference what state you are in, or how the gun was sold.  The FEDERAL government knows how it was originally sold by the factory and that is where you can be in trouble if you shift from rifle to pistol without paying the fee and getting the permit. 

Again, the odds are long that you will be in a position where any of this will be checked.  But if it is plan on lots of trouble.

[jpred1]

What concerns me is, if I try to get in on a plain or even get checked in routine traffic stop and the numbers are ran. I bought in from a dealer who simply wrote serial number down and states frame beside it. It has always been in pistol form since new. But maybe TC sold as something else.

[Keith L]

I understand that a call to TC will solve that mystery.  I have never done it, but I understand they will tell you how it was sold.  All my original frames are pre-rifle, and my G2s I bought new as pistols from the factory (frame with pistol grip and forend).

[sk330lc]

IF YOUR FFL is just writing frame He is wrong in doing so. When the ATF goes though and checks his paper work they will Make him declare it as Long gun or handgun.
 Just called my friend an ( FFL ) to be sure.   he also told me, The yellow sheets never leave his store unless he would close doors. at that point the ATF would come and get them.  After a 20years they have to be burnt.  The process with the tracking of a gun starts at the Factory where it was made.  then to the dealer they sold it to and on down the line.  So really the ATF does not keep any real record other than you bought a pistol or rifle.  (Who knows though?) 

[I make oil]

I bought my "frame" from Bullberry and had it transfered through my FFL.  It was registered as a Contender Frame.  I asked him to check for me also.  So as I understand and he is a Class 3 dealer who knows the in's and out's I can make it whatever I want as long as it is legally set up, ie pistol grip on pistol Rifle stock on 16"+ barrel.  Makes sense to me. Not trying to make trouble but that is what I understand.

However. I as Keith L have many different frames and don't usually interchange them around.  My pistol frames stick to being pistols and my Rifle frames usually stay rifles.  Kinda just how it works out.

[jpred1]

My dealer also just said mine states encore frame and wasn't listed either way , pistol or longgun.

[Win 1917]

Jpred, It's the same here in Louisiana. Guns aren't registered so there's nothing for the FFL dealer to declare. I have called T/C though and they can tell you how the frame left the factory.

[jpred1]

If I'm understanding this right. I may be breaking the law now and not know it.

[Slowpoke Slim]

Yes, you are understanding it right. You may be breaking the law, as the BATF has currently interpreted it. Since they are the ones that may come after you, it is their interpretation that matters most.

I have one of each frame set up, so I don't have to worry about it.

And just for information purposes, as an FFL, you USED TO be able to mark "frame only" in the old days when selling a Contender or Encore frame and filling out the 4473 form. If the frame was sold bare, no stocks or barrels sold at the same time, or during the same "visit" to the store. BATF has changed that, but 15-20 years ago it was PERFECTLY FINE to do so. Now you are REQUIRED to mark it one way or the other, and if in doubt, mark it handgun. Hope that helps.

[jpred1]

Seems my dealer is lost on this also. I ordered the frame @ 4 years ago and had him recently pull out the books. It said encore frame ONLY. I need to contact TC and clarify. The dealer stated that was the best thing about an encore was being able to convert back and forth so easilly. I'd bet most dealers believe the same and really do not understand the laws.

[Bill,SC]

How many times have you had the ATF at your gun range?  If an agent was there did he inspect all of the firearms on the range?  Did he ask the contender/encore pistol shooters to prove they came from the factory with a short barrel?

Most states have a 55mph law but do not stop drivers doing 56-59mph.  If the driver is reckless, DUI, or not wearing a seat belt, he may get stopped.  Of course, if you are in Waldo, Florida and doing 56mph you will be put in jail.  Sometimes it does happen.

I have been shooting contender carbines since David Ingram started building them in 1975.  Barrels are swapped, long to short and short to long, on a regular basis.  This is one of those laws which is enforced when somebody "needs" to be punished.  Or to help build a case when there are other factors. 

Okay, I break the law.  I drive too fast and I change barrels.  I hope keith and sk will come visit.

Shooter, take it for what it is worth, have fun with the contender.  That is why you have it.  Don't do anything stupid with it.  Don't change the barrel in front of an ATF agent.  And don't discuss this with someone who isn't enjoying life.  They just want you to sell your carbine barrel to them.

"That is all I am going to say about that!!"

[Blackhawker]

I have a solution for you Shooter.  First off, let me say that I read through about three quarters of everything here and just couldn't read any more but it lead me to posting this question: What's cheaper, an illegal arms arrest or a second T/C or G2 frame??  

I hope you'll see that it's a LOT cheaper to just buy a second frame and use it.  If you're original frame came as a pistol, then buy yourself a new frame with a carbine stock on it.  If your original came with a carbine stock on it, then buy yourself a pistol frame set up.  Shoot only pistol barrels on the pistol frame and shoot only rifle barrels on the carbine frame.  It's as simple as that!

(Yes, to the previous poster, the likelihood of getting caught is slim but now that the whole world can read what you've done...posted right here on the worldwide web.....you never know what can happen)   

[Slowpoke Slim]

Bill SC,

I have only seen the ATF at the range once. It was back in the early 90's, they came out to Ben Avery shooting range. Yes, they were checking firearms. I didn't have any Contenders out there that day, so I can't say if they would have "run" it or not. They WERE checking each and every SKS and every other "assault rifle" looking firearm for legality, length, rate of fire, "pre-ban" status, etc.

It was a different regime then, (remember Janet Reno?), regimes can change, policy letters can be written and passed down, for "good" or for "bad". Remember Waco, TX? The ATF was under intense scrutiny after that, and "policy" became more toned down again. It could just as easily be racheted back up at any time, with the writing of another "policy" letter.

Do what you want, risk it or don't risk it, it's your choice. But, why would you want a new shooter/Contender enthusiast to risk it blindly, without knowing the risk ahead of time? Are YOU going to finance their legal battles?

I used to not worry about this subject at all, until I read the ATF policy letter posted on here. Now I make sure there's nothing to worry about. I've worked as an FFL before for many years (not anymore), and I've seen both "good" and "bad" ATF incidents over those 15+ years. I would never want to wish a "bad" ATF visit on anyone.

To each there own, go in peace.

[shooter]

Guys ,i laid this to rest over a month ago.To those who were supportive and interested in getting to the truth..thank you.
I for one am only owning the pistol because that was my original reason for buying a T/C ...to pistol hunt.The hell with the rest of it.There are alot better rifles out there than the T/C.
Shooter....final word