Author Topic: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry  (Read 6661 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2010, 03:59:17 AM »
Shootall, "rights" are many and varied.  We have the right to speak freely, but I'm not sure I want to talk openly against any particular group in their presence.  We have the right to bear arms, but I don't think I want to take my assault rifle downtown.  We have the right to free press, but I'm not going to write an editorial on what I might think of illegal Mexican immigrants.  By not using all of our rights, we do not diminish them or risk having them revoked.  Our rights are taken away by changing politics--that's all.  I don't believe you open carry everywhere you go.  You can spout off all you please about how we ought to, but in the end, you don't do it.  If you can type information into a computer, if you can read, if you can master the use of a firearm, you have more sense than to tote a firearm in plain view everywhere you go. 

This thread has been open for weeks.  It's at the top.  While your opinions are so visible, while your chance to express yourself is so open to the public, go ahead and tell us that you open carry all the time.  No?  You don't?  What are the circumstances that prevent you from displaying your "right"?  You'll respond with rhetoric, I've no doubt.  Have some guts and tell us what you really do.  Can you not admit that public opinion, cops, people with common sense, will never accept a displayed firearm in every scenario.
Being from Va. i assume you know that in any city with more than 100000 residents you cannot carry open unless for a job that requires it . I find it funny that you assume you know how I will respond pretty arrorgant really. How do I carry ? Fair question really . I carry at work in a pocket most of the time . I do so for several reasons - first I work in and around a city that has over 100000 residents .
, second it keeps the weapon out of the dirt , and since i go into peoples home ( not a public place ) it keeps it a non issue ( i have had to defend myself  twice in a customers home ) .
When out in areas where I can carry open i often do.
I agree many don't like seeing open carry so whats your point ? If you go down town with your assult rifle put it in a case in Va. as thats the law in many places now. Or in the case of Henrico rolled in a blanket and in a saddle bag ( some of there laws pre date 1776 ).
Yes i do have enough sense to not tote a weapon in plain view when it is either illegal or not to my advantage  ;) .
There are many things i could throw at you but i will refrain from doing so with one exception you confuse decression with legal .
Since you feel this is an open and good place to voice views feel free to look back at my post you will see i have exersised my rights with regard to illegals and many groups unlike yourself.
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Offline jcn59

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2010, 04:47:24 AM »
We don't lose our "rights" by being vocal.   We lose them when we excercise our option to be silent.  Congress interprets "silence" as approval.  It works for them.  I think we all need to speak our mind as we do in this forum, but also to our congressmen. 

It isn't about whether you carry open or concealed, it's about congressional power and control versus our GOD-given right to protect ourselves.  Never, never, never give up.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2010, 05:21:22 AM »
We don't lose our "rights" by being vocal.   We lose them when we excercise our option to be silent.  Congress interprets "silence" as approval.  It works for them.  I think we all need to speak our mind as we do in this forum, but also to our congressmen. 

It isn't about whether you carry open or concealed, it's about congressional power and control versus our GOD-given right to protect ourselves.  Never, never, never give up.
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2010, 11:40:29 PM »
I carry concealed because I don't want anyone to know I have one, including the police...what people don't know won't hurt me one bit.

That being said, if I did live in a place where lot's of people carried openly, it would be more normal to everyone.  We all are different, police officers all completely different too, nobody thinks the same.
There are some wingnuts out there that don't mind attracting attention to themselves and want to wear them in the open when nobody else does...guess if the State see's fit they can change the law, otherwise there is not much anyone can do about it.  There are also some good people that would rather wear them on the outside too, maybe if more people did it, it would not be such a big deal, it certainly does not scare me the few times I have seen a person with it on the outside here.  I am also armed 99 percent of the time, but nobody knows. I like it that way.
I notice the police in these parts are all different, some think nobody but them should have a gun (very few, but some), some would rather actually see them, because they know lot's of people are packing, they just don't know who...and some don't care either way, they know darn well Michigan is a gun State and know the laws. They deal with it.
That being said....I would not run at a cop with a gun on my hip in the open either.
To the other side of that, anyone points a gun at me, they best use it, including a cop, because I don't like guns pointed at me...unless I do something dumb,...in which case I would expect it.  I'm lucky enough to live in a state where civilians can defend themselves from ANY threats, no matter what or who. 
The police do not have it quite that good in this state...they should, but they get scrutinized a whole lot more than we do in simple self defense cases. That's a shame. Like Bubbinator says...you can pretty much tell a nut anyways.
 



 If people don't do it,then it never becomes common. I tend to think that in some places that are not ready for it,it hurts the cause. In some places though,there is no choice,if you want to carry a gun,it MUST be open. As for not doing it even though its perfectly legal and your right to do it,because it will cause trouble for you,that's a personal choice that each person needs to make. That being said, if you are harassed out of exercising yo++S
ur rights,you don't have them,just the same as if the law said you didnt.

 Someone earlier mentioned that rather than wear a gun openly,because concealed was illegal where alcohol was server but open was OK,he would leave it in his car. Thats a terrible idea. I REFUSE to leave a gun somewhere where some punk breaking into parked cars will steal it. (and I have seen enough of these kind,going through a parking lot screwdrivering doors or just checking for unlocked cars)

Consider this,laws against having a gun where alcohol is served are NOT about drunk people with guns. If that were the case,then it would be illegal to have a set of car keys to a car in the parking lot there too) You COULD drink 10 beers and stagger out to the parking lot and drive home. The thing is,you COULD simply not drink,have a Coke,no rum,and then drive your drunk friends home. The potential results of having a gun in a place that serves alcohol is exactly the same as having those car keys. You drink,you act irresponsibly and someone dies. The solution is the same too. Here,you can walk into a bar with a loaded gun,either concealed or openly carried. Just like with the car (ok,I used keys as an example,because the car wont fit into the bar,but really,your not in control of the car until you get behind the wheel,but still...) you cannot be intoxicated and be in control of a firearm. In places where it IS about being safe with the weapon,that's how it is. In places where its NOT like that,its not about safety,its about making it inconvenient for you to carry your gun.If they make it hard enough,they know you will just leave it at home. Unfortunately if your going some places like the post office,they win on that point.

  As for generally carrying openly,its rather hot here,and its so much easier to carry a gun openly,especially if your outdoors hiking or fishing or something. In those cases I wear my gun openly. The thing is,Im not going to go to the trouble of carrying a separate holster and trying to conceal it for the drive out and the drive back and if I need to stop off and get some nice fat worms at Walmart (ok,the Walmart worms are scrawney and limp,but they are cheap) I therefore walk into Walmart,with a gun in an open holster (ok,it has a flap covering the gun,but unless your really dumb,you know exactly whats in it) If someone wants to call the police on me,they can go ahead. The cop will show up,Ill probably be long gone by then and the officer will read THEM the riot act for wasting his time,especially after he sees the picture of the guy with a gun,a knife,a leatherman tool,and a gps clipped to his belt,wearing hiking boots and one of those stereotypical hats you wear when fishing,buying worms. Hmmm,I wonder where he is going.

 I did run into an idiot in the supermarket coming back once (I didn't catch any fish that day,but I gotta eat) He said "is all that necessary" I asked "what?" I said all that and pointed at my belt. I told him,"I gotta clean the fish" He said "Do you shoot the fish" I replied "Ever seen a mountain lion face to face? Ive seen my cat play with a mouse,I dont want to be the mouse!" He said "Oh...." in that tone of voice that shows he realized he was being an idiot and wandered off.

 The bottom line is,I used to live in California. I felt uncomfortable wearing a gun openly and thought the same that some people here do of those that insist upon doing so. After a while of carrying it around though,I found many situations where its just more convenient for ME to carry it openly. After a while,I decided,'screw it'. If its perfectly legal,and a whole lot more convenient for me,then Ill do it,and who cares what the idiots think. For the most part,no one cares. Most people are silent. Some ask me questions,like if Im going hunting or something. I just explain that Im going hiking or fishing and that usually answers the question. (Either they GO to those places and realize that there ARE dangerous animals out there and although its rare,attacks do happen,or  DONT go to those places,and are probably scared of all the big dangerous animals that live out there)

  Mike,why WOULDN'T you write an editorial? You could do it under a pen name. I might not agree with you on that or I might,as I don't really know what the particulars of what you think of them are,although I personally think that too many people confuse justified anger with these immigration criminals (that's my new anti-PC term for illegals) with racism. What I mean by that is that at one extreme you get people who confuse peoples anger AT these criminals FOR racism,and on the other you get some who confuse their own racism for anger at the illegals (they really just hate Mexicans,they hate illegals too,but mostly because they are Mexican). Thats neither here nor there,as its rather off topic. Still,if you feel strongly about something,by all means exercise your rights and write an editorial. If they don't publish it (that's the newspapers right) ,then take advantage of the gift given to us by the ex 60s hippie computer programmers that made the internet and throw it up on the web for everyone to see.

 The thing is,if you don't use your rights,that's one thing. If you are AFRAID to use your rights,that's quite another,although there sill may be little help for you. If you are afraid to use your rights because you fear reprisals from an agent of the government,then you don't have those rights at all.

 Jcn. God given rights are irrelevant. In fact,people of the same faith cannot even agree what God wants,and often read what they want from their religious texts and scriptures to justify whatever they want to do good or bad. Its the same with all religions,and all systems of ethics and morality for that matter. Its why we don't live in a perfect utopia,everyone reads what they want,good or bad,and no one can agree. People find excuses for what they want to do. Sometimes its legitimately in there,sometimes its not. One thing does matter though. There is a constitution of our nation. Its the fundamental document upon which our government is based. It spells out a lot of things,some clearly and some (unfortunately) not so clearly. The people that wrote the constitution however created an entity,the Judicial Branch,to answer those questions and settle those disputes. It doesn't work perfectly,sometimes it doesn't even work well,but it works.

 That brings us to rights,god give or other wise. God given rights don't matter,what matters is rights,that in the opinion of the judicial branch,were given by the constitution. Thats whats important. It turns out that they say the right to protect yourself,using handguns no less,was given by the constitution. We can argue all day long whether God even exists much less gives us a right to defend ourselves (Jesus said get rid of the weapons,yet the Old Testimant is filled with stories of God being on the side of those using violence on a large scale (war) to defend themselves. ) The supreme court however said the constitution gives us the right to use guns to defend ourselves. That debate is over now. The new debate is what are the limits that government can impose. (As I said,the judicial branch often does not work well but usually in its own odd way,it DOES work,even if you or I dont agree with their decision,or perhaps cant even agree with what the decision SHOULD be. When was the last time you had an argument with someone about whether or not the Bible endowed you with a certain right,pointed out a page that supported your argument and that was that).

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2010, 12:50:19 PM »
Even in the days of the old west---must folks wore concealed---and a lot of 'em.
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2010, 06:46:14 PM »
Williamlayton, sir, with respect, you are dead wrong.  An armed person on the steet is an alarm signal.  There's nothing preconceived about an officer's thoughts in that situation, unless it's that he already knows such acts are out of the ordinary, so he should therefore take precautions and take them quickly. 

shootall, if someone with an exposed firearm was running directly at a cop, any reasonable officer would feel threatened, and the courts would justify killing the idiot.  Numerous "good shootings" have occurred because the officer simply saw a flash of metal, or a hand going out of sight inside clothing. Beyond that, it's clear you've never been there.  It's plain you've had no training, much less experience, in how to daily keep yourself alive.  It's obvious you've not had to face deadly threats routinely.  Having heard your rhetoric, I'm convinced that if you ever have to defend yourself, you won't.  You'll expire wondering why your right to carry openly didn't save you.     

If an otherwise law abiding citizen is running toward a cop he can shoot him? How do you figure that? Is it now illegal to run toward a cop? I tend to agree that drawing a weapon on a law abiding citizen who is doing NOTHING wrong or illegal is a serious mistake. If he does not have his hand on the gun,simply placing your hand on yours and yelling STOP should be good enough. If he doesn't listen,then drawing would be in order as the situation is starting to deteriorate. Its the sane and rational law abiding citizen test. If I were running up to a cop,say,because my GF had just been hit by a car as we were out walking,saw a cop and went running over to tell him to call an ambulance and come help her,I can see how I might forget how he could feel threatened. If he placed his hand on his gun and ordered me to stop,it would snap me back to reality,I would react appropriately and I would expect the situation to defuse fast. The thing is,in many places its a little unusual to carry openly,but in no way illegal,period. To suggest that you can shot citizens who are doing NOTHING WRONG is just insane. Anyone who suggests such a thing should consider a different career,hopefully one that does not require good judgment and/or carrying a deadly weapon.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2010, 02:43:56 AM »
There will always be those  afraid to exersise their freedon and they will keep trying to talk/force the rest of us into following their cowardly ways so they won't have to be alone in there fears . Trying to reason with someone who fears something is impossible as fact and reason mean nothing .
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Offline dave hall

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2010, 09:28:11 AM »
I live in central PA.I always carry my 38 or 357 concealed when me and my wife go for walks around where we live its mostly woods,but we still run into other people walking.I just fell more confortable with it under my one size bigger t shirt.I use Bianchi in the waist band holster its confortable and it keeps it tucked away.My main reason I carry it is because I don't want to be any animals chew toy.I do enjoy carrying my Bianchi Lawman holster with my Vaquero on the out side when I'm hunting.People don't seem to mind out here and I never leave the house with out my Drivers L. and Carry card with me when I carry.I've been stop by the Game Comm. before because I'll be walking down the road with no rifle and they ask me if I'm hunting and I open my coat up and show them my Vaquero and I've never had any problems with it outside or inside my coat while hunting.I don't mind carrying in town you just have to be alot more awhere of if its showing.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2010, 03:47:26 PM »
Okay.  Let's do this slowly.  For those of you who have the smallest fraction of a brain, go back to my last post. 

What you're doing is acting on material I posted long ago, and ignoring what I most recently said, which was:  (Now pay attention; it's not that difficult.) 

I thanked each of you for your input.  I am using that input for myself and others.  I don't care to elaborate on that, because you will ignore it and fall back on those comments that offended you.  I could not have obtained your spontaneous and truthful comments without pushing your buttons.  I'm not sorry for that, but I am sorry you can't comprehend or respond to anything else.  (No offense there, but I've found it true on most forums of this kind--you've gathered yourself together via electronic communications because each of you have a need to state your opinion to others of your ilk, and you need positive feedback.  You can't tolerate opinions from the other side; however, your negative comments and personal attacks have worked quite well for my purpose.)
 
Now, it's time to let it go. I'm not your enemy. It's not good for you to dwell on issues you can't fix, especially when your attempts to fix it amount to nothing less than hatefulness.  Just relax and be thankful that your comments will not come back to harm you, and in fact, will be of benefit to lots of folks who need to understand your stance on open carry.  If open carry is an acceptable form of behavior, you have, in your own ignorance, enhanced your position.  All of your statements, rational and otherwise, have helped.  If we can't be friends, at least try to understand that no damage has been done.  You'll be okay.  No names or handles will be divulged.     


Offline Casull

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2010, 09:46:53 PM »
Mike, let me do this slowly for you.  You posted at least 9 times stating in essence that those that chose to open carry are stupid, and that you drew your weapon and lined up on some fellow who was carrying a legal holstered weapon.  Then you write a two line "retraction" that was somewhat cryptic.  Then you tell those "who have the smallest fraction of a a brain" to go back to your last post because they continued thereafter to make note of what a jackass you were.  Is that correct?  So we're supposed to forget about the 9 times you either lied or posted in jest to elicit responses, but believe your last post.  Is that correct?  And you don't think anyone here should consider that conduct worthy of condemnation?  Hmmmm, guess you're the smart one.   ::)
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Offline jimster

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2010, 04:55:57 AM »
Here is something that just happened recently in my area. My sister in law is a city bus driver. She does not know the laws of our state.  The other day a person got on her bus carrying open, she didn't freak out enough to call the cops or kick him off or anything, but she did call her boss and ask what to do while driving. The boss told her law abiding citizens could carry in this state. Seems more people are doing this in our area, it is raising eyebrows, but now there are some people who are educated, including all those that rode this city bus. The person carrying was not looked upon as stupid after some people were educated, he chose not to have a concealed permit and excercised his right in this state.  In this state, no cities or local governments can pass any laws that over ride the main state laws, that is also a law on the books.  In some places at first, certain police officers in certain cities tried to hassle people even charging them with brandishing, but that didn't work, brandishing is laid out by the law as waving your gun around in a threatening manner. If carrying in a holster was brandishing, cops could not carry either, they too would be brandishing.  There are places where you will be hassled by those police officers who don't want you to carry, they need to be put down fast and hard, in a few places they have been. They will adapt as well in the end if more people do decide to carry open.  Normal is what people see most often, education is the key, and getting local enforcement to adapt to the laws without hassling people is a big step in places like Detroit or major cities that are run by control freaks who don't want to let people have their rights.  I would not say this person who carried a gun on the bus was stupid, we have no right to do that, he simply straped on a gun in plain sight, it could also be said some were stupid that did not know.  Actually, stupid is not a good word either...ignorant is a better word, it just means someone does not know, which is the case for my sister in law.  She is OK with it now that she knows.  Far as any city using police to harrass people, that is just plain disregard for the laws and should be looked into if possible.

Offline Curtis

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2010, 08:18:30 AM »
I haven't seen the comfort factor mentioned.  You might say that that is very much secondary to other more important considerations, however I have yet to find a concealed carry method that is tolerable.  IWB drives me crazy, shoulder rigs require a jacket or vest, pocket carry requires a diminutive firearm, etc.......

Open carry, which I sometimes practice legally on my own property solves as many problems as it creates (IMO) and is much more practical from a weapon accessibility standpoint.  It is much more comfortable in that I almost forget I have a full size 1911 on my hip.

Of course for me it is mostly a moot point until Texas decides to allow open carry.

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2010, 12:16:00 PM »
Okay.  Let's do this slowly.  For those of you who have the smallest fraction of a brain, go back to my last post. 

What you're doing is acting on material I posted long ago, and ignoring what I most recently said, which was:  (Now pay attention; it's not that difficult.) 

I thanked each of you for your input.  I am using that input for myself and others.  I don't care to elaborate on that, because you will ignore it and fall back on those comments that offended you.  I could not have obtained your spontaneous and truthful comments without pushing your buttons.  I'm not sorry for that, but I am sorry you can't comprehend or respond to anything else.  (No offense there, but I've found it true on most forums of this kind--you've gathered yourself together via electronic communications because each of you have a need to state your opinion to others of your ilk, and you need positive feedback.  You can't tolerate opinions from the other side; however, your negative comments and personal attacks have worked quite well for my purpose.)
 
Now, it's time to let it go. I'm not your enemy. It's not good for you to dwell on issues you can't fix, especially when your attempts to fix it amount to nothing less than hatefulness.  Just relax and be thankful that your comments will not come back to harm you, and in fact, will be of benefit to lots of folks who need to understand your stance on open carry.  If open carry is an acceptable form of behavior, you have, in your own ignorance, enhanced your position.  All of your statements, rational and otherwise, have helped.  If we can't be friends, at least try to understand that no damage has been done.  You'll be okay.  No names or handles will be divulged.     


Not sure if this is a cop out or just plain BS.
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2010, 05:58:42 PM »
On my own property, or really any outside of city limits and ordanances, I have no problem with open carry and do. Buttttt, in town it's another world and another matter. I have my CCW and have found various ways to conceal carry. If by doing so it makes others feel more comfortable by not seeing my weapon I have no problem with that. Just don't try to tell me I can't carry it and we'll get along fine.  ;D

Offline Dogshooter

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #104 on: August 03, 2010, 09:44:10 AM »
Mike In Virginia, Okay, let me see if I have this straight. You "pushed our buttons" to elicit justifiably angry responses from everyone. Then you tell us all that we are not capable of giving honest responses to anything but stupidity (you did play that one rather well, by the way). Then you call us names for reacting the way you expected us to react. And on top of all of that, you accuse all of us of being a group of close minded people that don't have the capacity for individual thought. Looks to me like you started all of this, then couldn't take negative feedback yourself. I am sure everyone here feels a huge weight has been lifted off of their shoulders by your reassurance that we'll all be okay. And I am equally sure we all apreciate you being our benefactor in this wonderful learning experience. On second thought, forget all that. I just think you are very full of yourself.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2010, 09:52:33 AM »
Mike In Virginia, Okay, let me see if I have this straight. You "pushed our buttons" to elicit justifiably angry responses from everyone. Then you tell us all that we are not capable of giving honest responses to anything but stupidity (you did play that one rather well, by the way). Then you call us names for reacting the way you expected us to react. And on top of all of that, you accuse all of us of being a group of close minded people that don't have the capacity for individual thought. Looks to me like you started all of this, then couldn't take negative feedback yourself. I am sure everyone here feels a huge weight has been lifted off of their shoulders by your reassurance that we'll all be okay. And I am equally sure we all apreciate you being our benefactor in this wonderful learning experience. On second thought, forget all that. I just think you are very full of yourself.

I second that last part !
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Offline S.S.

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2010, 04:02:02 PM »
this has been an interesting read....
And while I normally cover my firearm, I carried openly as well
on numerous outings for various reasons. I would say that everyone
on this forum would use their firearms to defend themselves or their
families. But what about someone you do not know. I have and will
without hesitation. No one has ever looked at me funny when I have carried openly.
This is because of the way I carry myself and how I act. I do not go out acting like
some sort of a Thug. But I have also stepped between thugs and those
they intended to harm. Them being able to see that I was armed, and knowing that
I was not going to allow them to do their deed, stopped the entire situation in its tracks.
If they would not have seen it and continued what they were doing the ending would have
been very different indeed. I know of three people for sure that are still alive and 1 women
who did not get beat half to death by a drunk husband because of
me carrying openly. So I do not see it as a bad thing. In one way I would say that
I wish I had never carried a gun. One day you might have to use it
and that never goes away.
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Offline bkraft

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2010, 05:54:51 PM »
Once again I am about to show my ignorance; the term "to print" exactly what does it mean in this context?Is it that the outline of the weapon is visible, for instance if I have a 1911 shoved down the back of my jeans and the grips show through my shirt?
Knowledge is Power, the more you know the more you know.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2010, 09:49:12 PM »
i conceal.. now as get ready to leave my car at a buisiness or what ever i am careful to
assess whos watching an whats between myself an the door..if theres a possible bg hanging out
anywhere near,my hands rest on the gun and i hope he see s that i might have some bad medicine for him..
show assertive confidense,with just a glance without a challenging stare..he ll realize that you are aware of him,as hes watching, an assessing  you also..jmo..slim
 ps the bg can be setting with several others in a car or most anywhere ,so learn to be real observant..then expect the best an be ready for the worst,,whether you see anything suspicious or not..

 That is called brandishing a firearm. Having it openly carried is one thing. Placing your hand on it can often be considered a threatening act. Think about it,if you YOU saw a guy walking toward you with his hand on his gun,YOU would be very concerned for your safety.

 Heres something to consider,what would YOU do if a man was walking toward you and had HIS hand on a gun. Its real easy for that to escalate.
Im not going to threaten anyone with a gun,period. If I draw it,I'm going to start shooting. If I don't have a reason to start shooting,its going to stay in its holster.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #109 on: August 03, 2010, 10:17:41 PM »
Epanzella
Let's carry your thoght to its final resting place.
Crooks are criminals and criminals don't stop being criminals--they learn to be better criminals.
One with a gun will eventually put some persons life at risk.
If yo have the opportunity to stop this process from reaching its final conclusion, are you suggesting you hope he will stop?
It is not the amount of money that is the turning point. It is the amount of hurt and violation caused that is the turning point.
Blessings

 I disagree. Its not our place to apprehend criminals or prevent future crimes. The laws in most states are VERY clear about this. Our guns (at least in most states) are to be used only to defend against an IMMEDIATE threat of serious injury or death. Its usually good enough that someone threatened someone with a weapon (armed robber counts,as the threat is,give me the money/goods or Im going to use this deadly weapon). Still,what I think he is saying,and I fully agree with,is that if in your opinion,you believe the crime is going to end without anyone getting hurt it may well be best to just let it run its course. ANY time you pull out a weapon,there are all sorts of things that can go wrong.
 Most importantly,if there are bystanders,you COULD hit one of them. While I can certainly see pulling a gun to protect those bystanders,there is a balancing act. The idea that I should shoot a criminal because I believe he is going to hurt someone in the future (but not at this time) and that I should weigh that more heavily than the potential risk to the bystanders from stray bullets just doesn't track. Additionally,in most places,its illegal. The laws often state that you need to feel that your life,or the lives of others were in immediate danger. If you DON'T feel that,and you shoot,your committing murder. It doesn't matter if they cant prove it. It doesn't matter if you can lie and get out of it. Your still a murder. Most criminals feel entitled to their criminal behavior. Feeling you were somehow "justified" even though the law says you were not does not make you any different than the guy robbing the market who feels he is justified because "he never gets any breaks" or "his situation is special" due to whatever hard luck story he likes to repeat to anyone that will listen.

 Just remember,the magnitude of someones integrity is not measured by what they do when people are watching,or when they will get caught ,but what they do when they are NOT being watched,or they know they will never be called to task for their transgressions.

 I can especially see it if for instance,you walk into a mini market and there is someone there robbing it at knife point and you feel that you have enough distance and the position is right that if he goes for you,or tries to go over the counter,that you can intervene as well as your sense of whether the guy really just wants the money or whether he is going to really use the weapon. Its not something that anyone here on a forum on the internet can determine. Its something that each of us,if faced with the situation must determine when and if it happens.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #110 on: August 03, 2010, 10:22:53 PM »
If its wrong to compare a CC to a crook then it is also wrong to compare legal open carry to a crook.
 I can assure you I have lived and worked in enough bad places that I keep an eye and most if not all people weapon showing or not . Getting beat , caught in a roit , being shot at and attacked with a knife all tend to peak the senses a bit and leave one with a new out look on their fellow man. I'm not PC I profile ! If I don't know someone I watch them if they are in a position to harm me.

So,the long and the short seems to be,people who don't look openly armed could be criminals concealing their weapons. Those that DO,might be criminals open carrying. Then again,they might NOT be criminals. So,in other words,you cant tell if someone is a criminal just because they have a gun. Imagine that,the Brady folks are wrong.

 As for you profiling,do you really mean that? You seem rather rational and I'm guessing you don't. If you "profiled" (in the context that "Im not PC,I profile" implies) then that would mean that if you saw a black man driving a nice SUV,you would immediately assume he had stolen it,because everyone knows that blacks either drive pieces of junk,or stolen white peoples cars. THAT is profiling. If you see a black man driving a lowered SUV,with gold rims sticking out 12" from the sides,blasting music about killing cops,while smoking a joint and flashing gang signs out the window, and you ASSUME he is a gang member,your probably right. That's not profiling,that's just common sense. The real problem with such things is that the cop that does it,makes excuses,so you end up having to make rules to say whats acceptable and whats not and there is often not a good way to make a rule like that,because the bad cop will try his best to circumvent it. It makes a giant mess,but I certainly am sympathetic to people I have known that had to put up with it. Imagine having to take an hour to go home the long way around,because you know that if you take the direct route home,you get pulled over EVERY SINGLE DAY,pulled out of your car at gun point,and accused of being a criminal,and held there for an hour while they interrogate you. Thats not hyperbole,it happens,but only if your the wrong color. That would make me very angry. (Just imagine being black,being pulled over and having a gun on you,even if you DO have the proper permit. The irony there of course is,in many states where someone might get stopped for DWB,are shall issue states)

Offline mrussel

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #111 on: August 03, 2010, 10:35:50 PM »
I think Mikey has a rather large chip on his shoulder.  Further, I think the main idiot with a gun around, in his presence ....is him. And yet further, I don't think he needs to be in the law enforcement business if he has such a low threshold of what is threatening behavior. Maybe he ought to live in Chicago and then if someone is openly carrying there's a good chance he/she is a villian and he can jump on them with both jackboots.
I don't open carry all the time...I don't wear underwear all the time...so what?  Sometimes you feel like wearing lace up boots, sometimes you feel like wearing flipflops. It's what we call an "option". I may if I want to and I don't have to if I don't want.  If it's legal, then it's up to law enforcement to adapt to the law. And, it's none of Mikey's beez-wax if someone exercises their option...and their rights.  Obviously, he wants everyone to conform to his views and is ready to draw on them if they don't.  Kinda reminds me of the constable at the school zone in Jonesborough, Tenn a few years back who was pulling his pistol if people didn't slow down enough coming though.  How 'bout it Mikey...that wuz you, wuntinit?  
Actually, Mikey is really a behavioral psychologist who's just studying people's reactions to inane provocation.
Just ol' bagdadjoe's opinion.  (re-adjusted my hat...must of been too tight)

 If your in Chicago,then its illegal. By definition,anyone open carrying IS a criminal. In Utah,its different. I was pulled over and I told the officer "just so you know,Im carrying a gun" He told me he was going to reach in and pull it out and put it on the roof of the car,and that I should not move while he was doing it. I told him that the hammer was cocked and there was a round in the chamber with the safety on. Im sure he assumed as such,but I just wanted to make sure. He took the gun out ,put it on the top of the car and proceeded to wright me the ticket. He then told me he was going to place the gun on the passenger seat and that I shoudlnt put it away while he was there,but the next time I stopped. I told him I was going to take the holster off my belt and that he could put it back in the holster and place that on the seat. (I don't really like the idea of the gun rattling around on the seat,even though it should be fine) It all went off smoothly,he felt safe and that he had control of the situation and I didn't have to end up with a cop pointing a gun in my face screaming "Hands where I can see them.

 Other times interactions with the police come into play is when I'm out fishing. I usually go out near (but not on) some private property owned by the railroad. A few times a day a sheriffs officer usually drives through checking that no one is messing with the railroads property. They have seen me carrying and think nothing of it.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #112 on: August 04, 2010, 02:48:58 AM »
mrussel , call it what ever if it looks like it can harm me it gets attention plain and simple. But no I don't care what people have or decide how they got it .  If you spend a few days on the steet you can learn alot . You can listen and learn , you can watch others have trouble and learn or you can pizz on the elec. fence and learn first hand. Predators act like predators no matter their color or location. Some fear being in say a mexican or black area thinking they will be attacked because they are white . This can be very true in many places , so watch out or be ready if you must be there . Better yet establish good relations with the people in the area , they can in some cases protect you . Might be as simple ( like my case ) of them saying lay off he fixes our heat and ac . When you serve a purpose for the area you might get a pass but not always. Other side is you cheat someone and it can work aginst ya.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Concealed Carry means Concealed Carry
« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2010, 10:21:32 AM »
Lets see hear.
I used to be in real estate.
I ventured in all neighborhoods of Houston.
I had a client that wanted too see some low cost investments in what is known as the 5th ward.
I advised against it because of the area and because prices were too high to be speculating in the first place---but a client is a client and I made the official calls to show.
I got there early, as is my usual way.
There were some boys in the hood doing business on the corner across the street. As I waited one of them kept eyeballing me. though he never made more than a bravados attempt to scare me by walking up and down the street with his pistola, i never did anything but watch him----well, except my .45 was in my lap.
I showed the property and made notice of the drug deals and the client got the message.
Walk softly and carry a big stick.
It is a fact--and the individual must be aware of it and be prepared to accept the responsibility for whatever action he takes---right or wrong. Every situation will be different--an individual incident--and they follow no pattern.
What if's are not allowed--no Monday morning QB'ing.
It is you and yourownself---make up your mind to that as it is the only constant you have.

MIKE
In somewhere---Have you not got the brain cell you wish everybody would get. NOBODY PAYS ANY ATTENTION TO YOU.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD