Author Topic: Tungsten surprise:  (Read 1101 times)

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Offline Donna

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Tungsten surprise:
« on: November 15, 2003, 02:06:31 PM »
Hello all, :D

After being very successful with my 90 grain, .224 caliber, lead core bullet, which stabilize at about 3818.18… RPS and a rotational velocity, on the skin of the bullet, of 2686.918517 inches per second. Which relates to a muzzle velocity of 2450 FPS from a 7.7-inch twist. I started for the first time to see what I could do with a powder tungsten core bullet.

The first thing I noticed, to my surprise, was that while a lead core stretched the jacket cup, the powder tungsten contracted or shortened the jacket cup. The more compression I got from the powder the shorter the jacket cup became. While the lead core bullet of 90 grains is 1.087 ± 0.0005, a growth of a several hundredths of an inch, the tungsten powder core bullet of 97 grains is 0.965 ± 0.0005, a contraction of well over a tenth of an inch. The stretching of the cup with lead is due to the cup’s walls getting thinner during the core seating operation while the reverse for tungsten is due to the powder granules dig into the cup’s walls taking the copper with the powder thickening up the cup’s walls.

This is very significant for ballistics. By switching to a denser core will allow for a slower twist rate or for less of a muzzle velocity to stabilize the bullet. On top of the denser core, I was able to get a heavier bullet in a significantly shorter bullet length that allows for a further reduction in the twist rate of a firearm. This can mean for the competition shooter, that he/she can use an unusually slow twist rate then normal that will allow for a faster muzzle velocity then would normally be possible for that same weight bullet in a lead core configuration. And as we all now a higher cross sectional density relates to a higher Ballistic Coefficient.

A regular copper jacketed lead bullet has a Specific Gravity (SG) of 10.9 whereas my copper jacketed powder tungsten, with my specific compression, has a SG of 13.1 (more precisely it is 13.05483768). This relates to a normal twist rate of about 1: 6.9 at 2250 fps and about 1: 8.3 and slower at velocities above 3000 fps compared to a powder tungsten bullet of the same length with a SG of 13.1 of about 1: 7.5 at 2250 fps and about 1: 9.1 and slower at velocities above 3000 fps. Now lets correct this for the length difference. The 1: 7.5 at 2250 fps becomes 1: 8.5 and the 1: 9.1 and slower at velocities above 3000 fps becomes 1: 10.2 and slower. This means that the bullet even though it weighs more can be pushed out the muzzle at a faster velocity.

In summery, the competition shooter will benefit from a much greater BC, higher velocities, and less Lag Time for flatter shooting and less Wind Deflection.

Also on the bullets that get messed up, the recovery of the powder is easy, just use a clean container and squeeze the bullet with a pair of pliers so the powder of course pours into the container.

Why? You might ask. And is it worth it?

Well, I had fun, fun, and more fun. I don’t know if it is worth it, that’s up to the shooter using the bullets. Is it beneficial in all shooting conditions? NO. The type of bullet used should always reflect the type of shooting being done. The bullet type should always follow purpose, purpose, and purpose.

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline bfoster

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Tungsten surprise:
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2003, 07:45:36 AM »
Donna,

How well locked is the powdered tungsten core within the bullet?

A loose core is the kiss of death insofar as accuracy in concerned insofar as standard jacketed bullets are concerned. This was (at least in part) what lead Astles & Biehler to develop their process.

Bob

Offline FatMcNasty

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Tungsten surprise:
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2003, 09:43:27 AM »
I have been playing with the powdered tungsten for a little under a year now. And have found that the cores swage pretty solidly to the jacket. Mainly my experiments have been with the 22 jacket with a tungsten core. My samples have shot well out of my 6TCU(1.5" groups).  I have not yet shot the copper jacked ones that I have made. So I cannot give info on those yet(i'm expecting better performance).

Donna, How are you caping off the tungsten, before point forming?
I have started to use old large rifle primer cups. Seems to work ok, it makes a nasty looking HP.
I visited Dave Corbin, and he said to use a small drop of wax. I have not tried that yet.

Nice forum. I have been lurking for some time, and thought I would finally post.

Rick Denn Jr
R&R Gunworks
www.rrgunworks.com

Offline Donna

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Tungsten surprise:
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2003, 11:55:36 AM »
Hello All, :D

 :) Bfoster…if the powder tungsten is actually grabbing the walls of the jacket cup and pulling it down as the powder is being compressed it should lock the core to the jacket very tightly. I have not shot these yet; I’ve just made them this weekend. But it should be fun to shot.

 :) FatMcNasty…interesting handle!? But moving right along. I’m not capping of the tungsten at all. I thought about the problem for a while before any experimenting started. But I did try that drop of wax bit and it took me an hour to clean the, you know what wax, out of my dies. Don’t do the wax before point forming trick, you’ll #$%^ the person that told you to do that. No, I had Richard Corbin make me a press stand that bolted to my swaging bench that could rotate my press in 90-degree increments through the full 360-degree revolution, 0, 90, 270, and 360. I talked about it in an earlier post on this forum. When I get to the point forming operation I just unlock the stand rotate my press up side down and relock it, it works great. Then I can form my points without any of the powder that does get broken up falling out. After that I push the point into soft wax press the wax with the flat part of the nail of my thumb to seal it.

 :shock: BTW, the rotary press stand is well built, I think overly built but that is how I like it. Richard is thinking about making it part of his product line. I bought mine for $50.00 and I think it is steel. If anyone is seriously thinking about making any bullets dealing with powdered cores this is the way to go.

FatMcNasty…BTW, where are you getting your Powdered Tungsten from?

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline FatMcNasty

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Tungsten surprise:
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2003, 02:59:08 PM »
Quote
FatMcNasty…BTW, where are you getting your Powdered Tungsten from?


I’m getting it from Dave Corbin. There shop is almost down the street from where I work (I’m in there at lease once a week). The inverted press idea sounds good. Ill have to make me a mount for the extra mity-mite(got a new s-press today YEA).
Dave has a new powdered copper he is selling. I have mixed it with the tungsten and came up with something that weighs the same as lead. But will not cause problems on the fields I varmint hunt on (trying to cut down on ricochets).

Offline bfoster

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Tungsten surprise:
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2003, 04:43:46 PM »
Donna,

I'd be interested in a range report.

Bob