If I can only have one...

[jason045]

I have been dreaming of hunting africa since my high school days.  My means are getting better but I'm still several years away from making it.  However I would like to get a rifle now so as to verse myself and become proficient with a heavy caliber.  Maybe even shoot a whitetail or two.  I will only be taking one rifle and always thought I wanted a 416 rigby but lately been thinking about a 458 lott.  My hunt will most likely be plains game only but with an outside chance I might have the funds to go after a buff.  Looking at a CZ 550 in one of these two calibers.  They seem like a lot of gun for the money.  The optic I have chosen is a trijicon accupoint 1-4x24 with the tritium illuminated reticule.  Would like to know what the pros think about or any recommendations they may have for my choice of rifle/optic.  Oh and the original point of the post...416 rigby or 458 lott.  Thanks--jason

[Graybeard]

I've never been there but read a lot on the subject. Strikes me you need to rethink your rifle choices. Neither are plains game rifles and are really more suited to use by professional hunters as back up rifles. I think you'd be far better served with a .375 H&H if buff might be on your list and if not you really don't even need that much rifle.

A .30-06 or one of the various .300 magnums should do fine and of course a .35 Whelen or 9,3x62 would also be an excellent choice and even adequate for buff if ya go for them.

Why chose an elephant rifle to shoot antelope?

[don heath]

I would agree with Greybeard- Most clients cannot shoot much over a .375 well. As a PH who only guides hunts for danerous game (I don't do plains game hunts at all- we shoot some plains game as incidental or for bait but never the main point of the hunt), I would rather see a client with a well used .375 that he can shoot well than anything bigger that he is shy of!

Still, if you want a big bore- go for a .458 or .458 Lott. Both can easily be down loaded to .45-70 spec with 300 and .400 grn bullets and used for pig and deer back in the states. I turned some of the old Barnes 350 grn X bullets into 300 grn boat tail bullets and shot them at 3000fps out of a CZ .458 Lott. I see Barnes now offer 300grn TSX bullets intended for the .45 -70 and .450 Marlin, but they can be made to reach out IF you can handel the recoil.

Also the lott and win both shoot very well with cast bullets at 1800-2000fps. One of my mates shoots almost all his plains game with a .458 win and 450grn cast bullets. The .416 is very difficult to 'download' much and is a bugger with cast bullets.
Buy something you will shoot- enjoy shooting and shoot alot! that way you will have fun in Africa and not have to rely on the PH to shoot your game for you....

[JJHACK]

I've seen a lot of hunters in my life with really big cartridges. However very few shot them well. It's much easier to want a 458 Lott then it is to shoot that cartridge well.

The game that requires a cartridge that size will cost you well over 50,000 bucks for a DG safari including several of them. The cost of the gun is not even relevant when you realize the price of the trip.

The 375HH is very likely the most power for your investment in felt recoil. It has been well proven and works exceptionally well with the great bullet options you have today. It's certainly been the line in the sand for most adults where recoil and big game is concerned. There is a very noticeable jump in recoil going to anything bigger then the 375HH in power. Yet there is not always a significant increase in performance.

The 500 grain bullets over 2100fps and the 400 grain bullets over 2500 really begin to punish the shooter after a few shots. My 458Lott was a custom made tack driver. Yet after about 9-10 shots I was pounded and unable to shoot as well. The 375HH I can shoot as much as the 30/06 in just a "t" shirt and I can also follow up with second shots very quickly. I used mine to pass the PH exam with no problem. I would not have had such an easy time with the 458 Lott, and may not have actually passed the rapid fire shooting due to recoil.

[mcwoodduck]

I am no expert.  I too want to go to Africa.  I read a book by Capstick called Safari where he talks about rifles, gear, animals, and outfitters.  The Book is a little dated having been published in the 80's.  You can still get new coppies at either Borders or Barns and Noble.
But he talks about the 375 H&H as a great all around hunting rifle and a well palced shot from it is better than a poor shot from a larger caliber.
I know many do not like Capstick and think he imbelished his stories.  But then again Hemmingway was all fiction based on real times and places.
I think the $24.00 investment into a Peter Capstick Book would be a great investment.
OH and if you think the rifles cost a lot wait till you see the ammo prices of the 416 Rigby.  Ammo is about 3-4 times the cost.  $100 will get me about 2.5 boxes of 375H&H and from what I can see will get you about 10 rounds of 416 Rigby.  As we all know practice makes perfect, and the more you can shoot the better you will be.  As the gentleman in the earlier post said he would like to see someone with a broken in well shot rifle.
I have a 375 H&H in the form of a Sako and ammo is not too bad and the Remington 270 grain soft points are affordable for shooting as well as the A square stuff in the 300 grain loads that all have similar ballistics between their monolith solids, soft points and Lion Loads.
The next pig I shoot on the Tajone will be with the .375 and the Monolith Solids.  A friend of a friend shot a pig with the 416 and made a huge mess of it with soft points.

[jason045]

Im not shy of the recoil...of the rigby at least.  Back in my college years I spent a couple summers up at my dads and put several hundred rounds of 416 rem downrange without ill effects.  Dad even drilled me on putting multiple shots in a 3" circle starting at 30 yards and binging it closer on some homemade clothesline contraption (trying to simulate the snout of a charging buff) fast as i could bolt em in.  I would think that the recoil would be comparable between the rigby and the remington.  Dont know bout the lott though.  I did shoot a 460 weatherby ONCE and that is something I never want to repeat.  I think those loads were 500 grain in excess of 2700 fps...brutal.  I know the lott wont kick as bad as the weatherby but how does it compare to the 416 rem?  Surely stiffer I know but not as unbearable as the weatherby?  JJ are you saying that a hunt that for plains game and a buff as the only dg will run 50k or are you including several species of dg.  I am only interested in a buff as far as dg goes.  As far as the ammo goes, the rigby can be reloaded with premium bullets for less than a buck and a half a round.  No one addressed my question about the gun or optic any experience with these CZs?  What about the trijicon scope?

[JJHACK]

Buffalo only will be more then 10K anyplace you go when everything is said and done.

I have multi species PG for under 5K

If a hunters is going to buy a rifle over 40 caliber then he's usually interested in the bigger species. There is not really anything on NA that would require anything over 40 caliber. So the purchase of that rifle would be for one animal like a cape buffalo. Where the 375HH is a great rifle for all around hunting and works fine for Buffalo. John Taylor killed about 3000 and was still writing books and killing buffalo without the TSX-Aframe-Trophy Bonded- A square modern powders etc.

It's not the buffalo that would worry me with a 375HH, however until you see a Elephant bull come boiling out of the bush ears flared and trumpeting........ well nothing in your hands really will comfort you no matter the cartridge.

[don heath]

CZ is a good basic rifle...but like all, it needs work before it is useable. The action needs to be glass bedded (well epoxy beded we cannot get the 'right' stuff in Africa), and everything needs a little polish. Many CZ's give feeding trouble when worked fast...nothing that cannot be fixed. Mind you so did the Ruger 77's in .416 rigby a few years back- killed the Rugers reputation in Africa and haven't seen a new one in years (the .458 Lotts worked just fine!!!!)

Also, I personally don't like the long barrel. Every PH that Brings me a CZ gets talked into a barrel shotening unless they are over 6'2" (I am only 5'8"). On the Lott I like to cut Barrels down to 21" and on the .416 to 22"

Scope- If you plan on a dual purpose rifle for both plains game and buff, go for a Leupold 1,5-6 (or even a 2,5-8) a S&B 1-8 or Nikkon 1,5-6. For alot of plainsgame you will find 6x far more useful than 4x! Also for buff you really don't need a 1,1 or even 1,5 power - as a client 2,5x will see you just fine. For ele and lion...no, now you want the ability to shoot with both eyes open.

[jason045]

What are some typical ranges that plains game are shot?

[saddlebum]

330 Dakota in a M-76

[jason045]

That rifle cost more than a plains game hunt.

[Grumulkin]

If you can only have one, go with a 375 H&H Magnum.  You can take anything from varmints (like this African Wild Cat taken with a 300 grain .375 solid) to big dangerous game with it.

They're accurate as well in a good rifle or handgun and have reasonable recoil.

I also have a CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 458 Lott.  Being about 6' 10" tall, the gun fits me well.  While it's accurate and powerful enough for plains game, unless you wish to put in the practice to become acclimatized to the recoil, I would recommend against getting one.

I really like the single set trigger on the CZ 550.  In the heavy hitters, they did have a problem with stocks cracking but I believe all the new ones now have cross bolts; I had mine glass bedded to avoid the stock cracking problem.  The criticism on feeding is also justified in many cases though mine didn't have this problem except with certain bullets.

I don't have a Trijicon scope but I've looked at them a number of times and liked what I saw (I probably should get one).  Put one in QD Talleys and you could take the scope off and use the iron sights if you wished.

You can also use the Lott for taking small game.

[jason045]

Ah..i see you subscribe to the same thoery as me...no such thing as too much gun!  Everyone seem to think i should go with the h&h but i like the extra horsepower the rigby offers.  Especially if im able to go after a buff.  The 416 rem I mentioned earlier was superbly accurate at 250 yds (max distance at the range) giving me slightly over 3" groups.  I dont see any problem shooting an antelope/zebra/warthog with it.  Do I need all that power?  Probably not.  But nice to know its there.  Especially if I can shoot it well.  The lott, though seems to me gets to a point of diminishing returns.  I dont know if the incrase in recoil and subsequent reluctance to shoot often would be worth the extra power.  I know you can download the lott, but Ive already got a 45-70.

[Mad Dog]

Jason,  opinions are like.....well you know, everybody has one.   I've only been on one PG safari, in RSA.  Get whatever you want, or floats your boat.  The only thing I will add, is look at the cost of and ease of finding components[if you handload], or the price of factory ammo, when you practice.  IMHO, if I were to buy one, for the off chance at buff, but definately PG, it would probably be a .375 H&H.  It's trajectory is very close to the 30-06, with more than enough power to handle the buff, with premium bullets.  A .45 cal would be ok to, because finding bullets is relatively easy.

But in the end, it's your decision.  Buy the one that is calling out to you.

Mad Dog

[jason045]

I think the rigby is calling me.  My barnes manual shows 2615fps for the 350 TSXs, 2706 for 350 solids, 2462 for 400 TSXs, and 2580 for 400 solids.  Seems like plenty of velocity with the lighter bullets to make 250-300 yd shots on pg.  And bone crunching penetration with the 400 solids in case I get to hunt a buff.

[Daman]

You will have to adjust POI/POA for the different bullets more than likely.

[efremtags]

If you like the RIGBY, you should consider a 416 Ruger. Ballistically they are identical, but he Rugers are much cheaper to shoot.

If i was goin abroad, a 416 Ruger Alaskan toped with a 1.5x6 scope would do it.

[jason045]

I had not considered the ruger but it seems very interesting.  Found an article with real chronoed velocities with 400 gr bullets out of that 20" tube at 2369 fps.  Didnt find much in the way of reloading data for it though.  Any of you PHs here had any experience with this rifle/cartridge combo?

[Ramhunter]

One thing to consider for African hunting is the availability of ammo in Africa if your baggage containing ammo fails to arrive on time.  For example the .375 Ruger is a fine cartridge, but trying to find it in Africa is almost impossible.  On the other hand, .375 H&H is available everywhere and your PH is quite likely to have some on hand for emergency use.  The same thing applies to the .416 Ruger. 

This is something to consider when trying to decide between newer cartridges, even with marginally improved ballistics, versus the old standbys.

[don heath]

Ruger bolt actions are not popular here and I have never seen any ammo for either the .416 or .375 Ruger  (and I collect cartridges )

If it is just for hunting in the USA- Choose what ever boils your veggies, if you are seriously considering bringing it to Africa, be sensible and bring something the PH has a chance to find ammo for. I would guess that at least 50% of clients arrive with their rifle but without their suitcase - Guns are security items and don't get lost in Jo'berg airport. Most cases show up in a couple of days....If the client has packed his hunting boots and a spare set of cloths in his carry on, and I can find ammo for his rifle, we go hunting. If not, he gets to spend some very, very, expensive days sitting in Harare or Bulawayo!

You can always find .375 H&H and .458 Lott. Mostly you can find .458 Win and 9,3x62 and usually .416 Rigby and some .416 Rem and .470 NE. Other than that....you're sucking wind.

[jason045]

I think my mind is made up...pretty set on the rigby.  Still undecided on the scope though.  On the rifle i hunt whitetails here in louisiana i use a true 1x and shoot with both eyes open 90% of the time at ranges out to 75-80 yards and it works well for me.  Beyond that I might go to 3x or 4x.  Just dont know if I need or want the higher magnification beyond 4x or 5x.

[WL44]

If you are enjoying the indulgence of making a decision it's always nice to read a few books on the subject. Yes, Capstick's "Safari: The last adventure" is one. I really enjoyed Gregor Wood's "Rifles for Africa", lots of good stuff there for all of us. I've not read Boddington's latest, or seen his DVD's on rifles, but that may also be worth looking at.

The experts have nailed it already. I'm no expert, but for its limited value, I agree with the posts. Currently my largest rifle is a 375 H&H, scoped with a 1.5-5X20. When hunting plains game I've found the 5X a bit too little for longer shots - say 200-250 yards. The reticle is also too coarse for that purpose (the circle dot). I'd be even less keen to take longer shots with a 45 cal.

I suspect the PH's here will agree with me that most of your African hunting in big game areas will require very few (if any) shots beyond 250 yards and those will be long shots and at plains game (not DG) only. It depends on where you are hunting and topography of course, but that applies to most areas you would go, I'd say.

I still prefer a bit more magnification on the top end for the plains game which can be smallish targets! Outside of the big game areas you may be taking longer shots, but I'd still not consider that to be the norm.

[Swampman]

Remington Model 700 in .375H&H.

[WL44]

For fear of starting an arguement and yes, amongst other push feeds I have a Rem700 too, but I like CRF for a rifle that will be used in tough conditions and for DG, even with a PH present. CZ, Win Mod70 Classic ("new pre-64" CRF), Ruger or custom and not necessarily in that order.

It's been discussed here before.

[Swampman]

Only accurate rifles are interesting. 

[Daman]

Only accurate rifles are interesting. 

Too true!

[JJHACK]

It's a poor workmen that blames his tools.

I've not come across near as many bad guns, as I have poor shots!

[jwp475]

I have been dreaming of hunting africa since my high school days.  My means are getting better but I'm still several years away from making it.  However I would like to get a rifle now so as to verse myself and become proficient with a heavy caliber.  Maybe even shoot a whitetail or two.  I will only be taking one rifle and always thought I wanted a 416 rigby but lately been thinking about a 458 lott.  My hunt will most likely be plains game only but with an outside chance I might have the funds to go after a buff.  Looking at a CZ 550 in one of these two calibers.  They seem like a lot of gun for the money.  The optic I have chosen is a trijicon accupoint 1-4x24 with the tritium illuminated reticule.  Would like to know what the pros think about or any recommendations they may have for my choice of rifle/optic.  Oh and the original point of the post...416 rigby or 458 lott.  Thanks--jason

   The 416 Rigby is a marvalous caliber. I have 2 of them a Ruger and a CZ. I like the CZ better, it is easier to shoot accurately because of it's better balance and less felt recoil.

 THe 416 Rigby is an excellent do it al caliber IMHO

[WL44]

Swampman, I agree. I agree with JJ too.

But I guess you are meaning that a Rem700 is that much more accurate than the others. In 375 and larger I doubt it would make much difference to most shots and under field conditions I'd challenge most to show it. It would probably be a difference that I would give up for somewhat more certain reliability.

I've seen all those rifles I mentioned shoot really well, although I've seen more CZ's, Wins and Mausers than Rugers. My Win Model 70 Classic in 375 is a slightly better than 1 MOA rifle.

Remember, to be accurate it needs to be working...  . And before the Rem fans all get their noses out of joint, yes, they generally work well, but the controlled feed discussion has been had here.