Reloading the 7,62 russian nagant ? ? ?

[1911crazy]

I'm looking for a load to reload my 7,62 russian nagant using unique powder?? ( if i can)  I'm trying to stay with one gun powder on my handguns for non magnum loads.  If use a 90gr or 95gr bullet how much unique powder?

[canon6]

Ammoguide.com shows a max charge of 4.0 grains of Unique for a 90 grain bullet.This load was right at 1000fps  so I would start  lower.   hth    Doug

[threepdr]

I've using about 3.5 grains of Unique with a 100 grn lead bullet. 

Don't trust us, get a good reloading guide and load to spec up to .32 mag.  No higher

[Hank08]

1911, just a question about the Nagant, I know a lot of shooters use .32 S&W longs and some the .32 H&R mags but wondering if anyone has tried the .327 Federal yet.  They fit perfectly in the chamber.  I know the pressure is higher but is it too high for the Nagant?
Anyone tried it?  A $75 7 shooter instead of a Ruger $600 8 shooter.
H08

[coyotejoe]

I realize this is an old post but I sure hope you haven't fired any .327's in a Nagant. I'm surprised no one has jumped in sooner to say "don't do that".
 No, it does not "fit perfectly in the chamber"! The Nagant chamber is at least .020" larger at the rear than is a .327 Federal. Combine that with a chamber having no throat to guide the bullet straight into the bore, a bore with no forcing cone and a chamber pressure three times what the Nagant was designed for and it all totals up to a very bad idea. Of course the Nagant revolver was itself a very bad idea and the various makeshift loads people come up with only make a bad idea even worse.
 If you want to shoot your Nagant you can get the Fiocchi brand ammo at $27 or Prvi brand at $20, not at all a bad price for a box of fifty, and both are reloadable brass which does "fit perfectly" and is loaded to pressures safe for the Nagant.
 Finding reloading dies is another matter. Lee makes a die set but they are intended for reloading 32/20 brass, which is another bad idea. You have four options. Shoot factory loads, reload with proper brass, get another cylinder or just don't shoot the thing. It really isn't a very good or useful revolver anyway and not worth spending a lot of time or money trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
 I have owned several Nagants and shot them a bit but now I keep one just to show folks what I consider to be the most ridiculous revolver ever adopted into military service. I also keep it because they are so cheap it isn't worth the bother of trying to sell it. LOL

[1911crazy]

I'm staying with the 7,62 nagant for right now.  I'm going to reload some and buy some more boxer primed loaded rounds too.  I don't plan on shooting it alot unless it grows on me.

[coyotejoe]

I know what you mean and I doubt it will grow on you, mine for sure didn't.

[Hank08]

Yes Joe, we know you hate them and never miss an opportunity to tell us how much you hate them but there are some who really like them.
I have 2, both in .32 mag and I have 5 Rugers in .32 mag and the nagant shoots just as good groups and sometime better than the Rugers.
I know the original cylinders are slightly larger and bulge a case a little but I've yet to see one split.  Someone posted here about using 32/20 cases and wadcutters and running the 32/20 case into a .30 C die and that's the best solution for shooters who want to use the original cylinder. I wasn't suggesting anyone try the .327 in the Nagant. I was just curious if anyone had tried the .327, I know someone will
because if you didn't know any better droping it in looks to be a perfect fit.  Someone will eventually try it.  I wish I had an extra one so I could but both of mine shoot too good to take a chance. Actually I think it would take the pressure.
H08

[coyotejoe]

#1   Yes Joe, we know you hate them and never miss an opportunity to tell us how much you hate them but there are some who really like them.

No I don't "hate" them, I think they are very comical! Russians aren't noted for humor but with the Nagant they pulled off quite a good joke.

#2  I know the original cylinders are slightly larger and bulge a case a little but I've yet to see one split.

The key work here is "yet". People get away with a lot of foolish things for a while but it is extremely foolish to push one's luck. That "bulge" in a low pressure case like a .32 S&W long can become a complete head separation with a high pressure round like the .327 and even the low pressure case can let go if repeatedly resized and reloaded.

#3 Someone posted here about using 32/20 cases and wadcutters and running the 32/20 case into a .30 C die and that's the best solution for shooters who want to use the original cylinder.

The best solution is to use proper Nagant brass and there is no reason not to do so. The notion of using 32/20 brass as a makeshift substitute goes back 50 years to when Nagant ammo was not available. It is a poor substitute. Not only is it too short, leaving the unsupported bullet to rattle through an oversize chamber and slam into a barrel with no forcing cone but the rim is too thick as well. My own Nagant will not rotate with a 32/20 in the chamber.

#4  I wasn't suggesting anyone try the .327 in the Nagant. I was just curious if anyone had tried the .327, I know someone will
because if you didn't know any better droping it in looks to be a perfect fit.  Someone will eventually try it.  I wish I had an extra one so I could but both of mine shoot too good to take a chance. Actually I think it would take the pressure.
H08

Well pardon me but your original post does indeed sound like you are encouraging someone to try it and this post again sounds hopeful that "someone else" will give it a try.  To encourage "someone" to try what you know to be dangerous is about as irresponsible as it gets. You don't want to risk your 75 dollar revolver but hope someone else will risk their hands and face? That's carrying the joke way too far!

[1911crazy]

Its a part of russian history???  I think the russian nagant looks neat. Of course it looks old and out dated too.

I'm not fond of the CZ52's but i own "1" and don't hate them.  I just can't figure out what happened to the CZ52's design when it had the CZ50 before it and the CZ82 after it with there same designs and the CZ52 being so different looking.  To me its butt ugly when i have it side by side with my cz50/cz82.  I just think they could of came up with a better design.

[ecker]

I use Starline 32.20 brass and a 110 lead bullet loaded using Lee dies. Works good for me.

[Hodr]

1911 crazy,
gunboards.com has a forum dedicated to the 7.62x38r Nagant.  You will find there if you check back posts an individual who witnessed a catastrophic failure by an individual who loaded a 7.62x25 Tokarav round into a Nagant.  If you look for nagantman on google you will find a pretty good set of videos for assembly/disasembly of the pistol.  The guy also has a a fix for modifying 32-20 brass and the pistol so it will shoot well.  (?)  I have a stash of 32 H&R mag I am going to burn through for the brass.  Then I am going to reload with trailboss for a training/plinking load. Considering the age of my nagant the first 200 rounds will be fired out of a vise with me at the end of a lanyard.  If a Tokarav round will blow a Nagant bad enough to need an ambulance, a .327 mag just might qualify the experimenter for a Darwin award. 

blindhari

[coyotejoe]

Back 15 0r 20 years ago there was a fellow offering a service to rechamber Nagants to 7.62 Tokarev. I remember his add in Shotgun News which read "Nagant neyt, Tolarev dah." I think he was a total idiot.
 I just keep repeating, "There is no need to resort to makeshift loads when proper 7.62 Nagant brass is readily available and even cheaper than 32/20 or .32 H&R." Why settle for half-assed and potentially dangerous loads when it is easier and cheaper to do it right? That is just insane.

[ecker]

Any info on where I can get 7362 Nagant brass ?

[coyotejoe]

Sorry I gave the impression that one could purchase unfired brass, no, you have to buy factory loads and fire them to get empty brass. Several sources carry PRVI and or Fiocchi brand of 7.62 Nagant ammo, both of which are boxer primed and reloadable. I mostly deal with Graf and Sons for ammo and reloading supplies but Midway and Natchez Shooters Supply also carry it. Southern Ohio Guns has the "Hot Shot" brand which I think is also made by PRVI. I have used both Fiocchi and PRVI and find not much difference in the accuracy of factory loads nor in the reloadablity of the brass so I prefer the cheaper PRVI brand.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12577

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=18803&categoryString=653***691***

http://www.southernohiogun.com/ammo-deals/762-nagant-ammo-50rd-box-new-production.html

[1911crazy]

Hey Joe;  I think this fine russian nagant pistol does desirve its place in history after all its lasted till now.  Its a cross between a mack truck and a fishing reel right?  But its a rock solid design which we would expect in that period of 1895 right?  Just look at henry's old model T's they fit together.

[coyotejoe]

I think it illustrates a quirk in the Russian Psyche. I have great sympathy for the poor Russian cavalryman who had to trade in his .44 S&W top break for one of those silly little toy revolvers. The S&W was reasonably powerful, highly accurate and very quick and easy to reload. Imagine trying to reload a Nagant while wearing heavy gloves, on horseback, under fire. Imagine trying to stop a man charging with a bayonet with that little pop gun. While the .44 Russian is nothing great by modern standards it certainly was a much better stopper than the pip squeak .32 which replaced it. I think the reason the Nagant lasted so long in Russian service was not because it was an effective combat handgun but because it was only used by sergeants and officers to threaten their own men and occasionally shoot a few when they showed the good sense of not wishing to charge into machine gun fire. In military revolvers the .455 Webley or the New Service Colt .45 were in every way superior weapons and by 1895 most of the world's military were looking hard at automatic pistols and several fine ones were adopted by other countries within the next few years. The Russians stuck with the Nagant for 40 years for the same reason they adopted it in the first place, out of sheer perversity.

[Hodr]

Coyotejoe,
I was an armorer in Berlin back in the 60s.  Because the Nagant was issued to some of the East German show troops I had to learn to work on the pistol as well as all other Warsaw Pact weapons.  Because I was describing it my wife got me one for my birthday.  This is not the worst pistol or pistol caliber ever pressed into military service.  I would reserve thar for the FP 45 Liberator manufactured in this country for WWII.  After a complete teardown and firing 60 rounds through this pistol on Saturday, I have reached a few tentative conclusions.
This weapon is designed to be used by the lowest common denominator troop all the way up to troops well trained and disciplined.  It allows total disassembly with a screw driver.  It should be fired single action, which conserves ammunition when issued to line troops.  It is balanced in the hand and accurate to 3" at 30' fired single action, standing, at 15yds without tuning.  (The original specification I beleive was to kill a horse at 20 yds with one shot.) These conclusions are so far based on 60 rounds 32 H&R mag fired through this gun.  My opinon after firing: overenginered, as accurate as a tuned S&W 65-5, about the felt recoil of a 38 special  +P, designed so anyone can work on it. not silly at all for the job it is designed to do.
I will repost when I have relaoded some trailboss this brass.

blindhari

[ecker]

Coytejoe, thanks for the info.. Will try some of the PRVI.

[coyotejoe]

If you happen onto a Nagant which is accurate it makes an OK small game gun, even in a better revolver the cartridge would not be suitable for anything larger, it's just a funny looking .32 S&W long with fmj bullets.
 As a combat handgun it is a sick joke. I have timed and demonstrated that I can reload a cap & ball Colt faster than I can shuck the empties and reload a Nagant and the cap & ball, even a .36 caliber would be a much better man stopper. This gun was adopted in 1895, not 1845 and the rest of the world had moved on from such arcane technology. The Russians themselves had a much better revolver in the S&W .44 top break. Why build a double action revolver with a trigger so heavy it can't be fired in double action? Why build a revolver which can't be reloaded wearing gloves in a country where heavy gloves are nearly always needed? For that matter, why build a revolver at all in an era when the rest of the world was looking at automatic pistols?
As for killing a horse with one shot, I don't doubt it will do that but if it were a cavalry charge you would be run down, trampled and sabered long before the horse felt that pip squeak .32 bullet. I think the Russians were more interested in killing their own recalcitrant soldiers than killing cavalry horses.
 The Nagant sacrifices power, accuracy in double action mode, speed and ease of reloading all for the dubious advantage of the gas seal, an example of theoretical efficiency at the expense of practical use.
  But they are funny!

[coyotejoe]

To get back on the topic of reloading for the Nagant, I posted this some months ago.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,214150.0.html

[Hodr]

Hello coyote joe,
First off I have to admit that the original specs for the #3 S&W 44 special are 10-20% higher than the 1895 nagant.    However Ivan has never been a fool.  Ivan has been exploited, abused, mistreated, illiterate, uneducated, underpaid, and fought invaders, but has never been a fool.  During the winter when those heavy gloves have been needed Ivan has gone on defense and let the weather kill more enemies than most people would think possible.  At the time the Nagant was first ordered I have no doubt that bribery was prominent getting it accepted.  It was never made in double action for general issue, officers only, double action was made possible at the arsenal when refurbished.   The nagant was almost a lb lighter than the 44 and ammunition was also lighter.  As far as I know neither was designed as a hunting catridge.  With practice I have no doubt you may be able to load a cap and ball faster than a nagant can be reloaded.  Ivan though is going to be standing there while you are loading your six shooter while he still has the seventh shot left in his cylinder.  Perhaps consideration might be given to wether you can get 7 rounds out of your cap&ball as quickly as Ivan can out of his nagant.  (It was supposed to be a military sidearm)  I think we are comparing pickups and station wagons, different designs for different uses, with each of us happy with what works. (I am not fond of cap and ball or heavy firearms.)    As I said earlier I am going to reload at about 2/3 of 32 H&R for plinking in the woods and will repost when I do.  I think it is a hoot to shoot now and an looking forwards to a lighter load.  Lastly, this thread has been the most fun I have had in awhile and I am not being facetious when I say I do value your opinions.
I can smell coffee and my wife's choclate chip cookies coming out of the oven. 
Thanks for the discussion,

blindhari
Sgt 
Berlin Brigade
Spandau Guard  (1968)

[coyotejoe]

My point was in reference to the Nagant's use as a military pistol.  My objections, incredibly slow reloading, pip squeak cartridge, ridiculously heavy double action trigger, would not be of much concern in a sporting handgun. But would you choose a Nagant for personal defense? I'll admit I didn't know the Russians only fight in summer. That lasts about two weeks doesn't it?   

[Hodr]

The Russian/East German troops I saw were the eaqul of any of ours.  Difference was in pay, equipment, training, procurement, maybe morale.  They were individualy tough as hobnails and patriotic.  They found solutions for problems I never thought about.  (try finding out why they were never issued socks)  For most of them A Nagant would have been more sidearm than they ever had.  Tokarov was the duty weapon however in Berlin.

blindhari

[GreyRotten]

Knowing this thread is getting a little out of date, I will add this anyway.  I am very fond of the one I got last year from AIM, a beauty.  I have been reloading it for a while now.  The best load I have come up with so far is using 32-20 brass (starline) trimmed on the head as to not modify the gun.  I use Titegroup about the same amount as Nagant man uses Trail Boss (the Trail Boss works OK too).  Using the .312" Hornady 100grain and this becomes a very formidible cartridge.  There is no way that the factory ammo can be very accurate as the pill diameter is .308" and the bore on mine is .3125".  I don't know if you can load the factory length brass with a larger bullet, but to get accuracy out of it you need it.  You can get the XTP bullet in 85 grain at .312" also.  Another load would be the .314" HBWC in 90 grains using Bullseye, HS6, TiteGroup or what ever.  I think the gun is fairly stout as I did have a double charge (no way will that happen again) of TG and she just spit it out, with no ill effects.  The Lee dies don't work that well for the 32-20 brass, (if you use a .308 pill they don't form it down enough to get any tension to hold the bullet.   I use 32-20 and size them back and crimp with a Lee factory crimp for 32-20.  I have some magtech .313" 98 g LRN comming we will see how they work.

[coyotejoe]

There is no problem in loading bullets up to .314" in proper 7.62 Nagant brass, however I once got an outstanding group with .308" 110 grain bullets meant for the .30 carbine. That was years ago and I don't recall the powder used but it was likely a fluke anyhow since I never could duplicate it.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,214150.0.html

[leadman]

I've been reloading for my Nagant with Bertram, Fiochhi, and Privi brass. The Fiochhi and Privi were factory loaded brass.
The Privi splits about a third of the case necks when fired.
I am using the Lee 93gr. RN cast bullet sized to .313". I use the Lee die set with the Nagant brass and it sizes the cases properly. I did turn the end of the bullet seater down so it would set the bullet below the case mouth. Unique seems to be the best powder so far. Seven rounds go into a group about 2 1/2" to 3" at 10 yards.

Can't say it is the best gun I ever fired, but it is interesting! Going to work on the spring to lighten the trigger pull following the article in the Shotgun News. Soon as I get round to it.

[leadman]

I did work on the V spring in my Nagant following the article in the Sotgun News. It did help but the 'smith only thinned the lower leg of the spring that rides on the trigger. I thinned the upper leg that goes to the hammer and this helped as much if not more.
I did try it with a primed case in the garage and it works fine.

The pull is still heavier than a Smith, but now double action can be used and keep the gun pointed at the target.

[.22-5-40]

Hello, guys.  The only reloading I ever did for my Nagant was about 30 years ago, with .32-20 brass & primer powered wax "bullets"  the same ones I also used in my 91/30/...5/16" reamed holes in 1/2" plate filled with paraffin wax.  Just had a thought...The French Mod. 92' revolver barrels were bored & rifled on same machinery used for the Lebel rifle.  I wonder if the Nagant was manufactured on same machinery as rifle?

[coyotejoe]

  I wonder if the Nagant was manufactured on same machinery as rifle?

I've seen that speculation but I don't know. While the bore diameter is the same I don't know if the twist is the same. The bore diameter is also about the same as the .303 Brit, the 7.65 Mauser,  the 7.7 Jap and every .32 pistol or revolver cartridge in the world so I don't think bore diameter alone indicates the revolver barrels were rifled on the same machinery as the long gun.