Handi .243 cold barrel flyer. Any fix?

[MO]

I'm in the process of finding a few handloads for my Handi.
I've got a 24" bull bbl laminate Handi that I've got grouping pretty well with 55gr and 95 gr Nosler Ballistic Silvertips. (0.303 and 0.459, 3 shot groups at 100 yards).

My problem is that every time it's the first shot of the day, and the barrel is cold, the first shot hits 2 to 4 inches higher of typical POI.  #'s 2 and 3 of the first group are fine, and it's fine for the rest of the session - it's just the first one that's high every time.

I've been through the FAQ and am reasonably confident that nothing there is hindering me.

It's not a big deal on the bench to fire a fouling shot, but in a typical hunting situation it's unlikely that I'm going to remember to hold 3 inches low of what I want to hit.

I've had many guns where the first shot was an inch of so from typical POI, but I've never had a gun like this.  Is there any fix?

[gendoc]

after you get your perfect shot.....DON'T CLEAN THE BORE
leave it fouled. put it away for the next time. 

[MSP Ret]

Exactly right, and I suggest you change the title to "clean barrel or "oiled barrel" flyer. The first shot out of a clean oiled barrel is usually different than the following shots. There has been much written here about Handis prefering dirty or "fouled"barrels, which happens to be the case with most firearms....<><....

[zoner]

Same question from me....is that a clean bore first shot or dirty...cuz a lotta handis like to do it dirty

[McLernon]

Cold clean barrel shoots low is the rule................something else going on here.......like wet/oiled latch.

Mc

[quickdtoo]

I never hunt with a clean bore, I shoot it to check zero prior to the season and don't clean it again until I put it away after the season or it gets wet. 

Tim

[gendoc]

Cold clean barrel shoots low is the rule................something else going on here.......like wet/oiled latch.

Mc

well handi's are made to break rules !!!!
clean bore =  anywhere it wants to go 

and if it does have a wet latch, first shot ain't gonna dry it out...

as we all know.... no 2 guns are the same. jus like the operators 

[gcrank1]

I have yet to do the 'definitive' test, but, I do wonder about the change in point of impacts with the way we close these up.
The first shot of the day, do we tend to just 'close it'  and in follow ups do it with a bit more authority?
They dont close like fine, well fitted and broken in English shotgun.
I have taken to 'slapping' mine closed with vigor right from the get go. Give it a try with attention to this and see what happens.

[MO]

after you get your perfect shot.....DON'T CLEAN THE BORE
leave it fouled. put it away for the next time.  

The rub is that the only 'cleaning' is running a boresnake through it (with a small amount of hoppes9 on the brush section and a small amount of rem-oil on the snake a foot past the brush, which I only apply once every 15 or 20 groupings) - and I've been doing that after every 3 shot group, as well as when putting it away.  So, I think the only difference between the first shot of the day and the fourth shot, for instance, is that the barrel is cold.  Make sense?

The reason I bore-snake it between groups of 3 is that I get better groups.  I had been snaking it after every 6 shots, but the 2nd 3 shot group was always more open than the first, so I changed to snaking it after each 3 shot group.

By the way, it's about 6 or 7 minutes between each 3 shot grouping. I've been walking down to the target and measuring and marking each group to give it time to cool a bit because it was getting really hot to the touch when I only gave it a minute or two.

EDITED TO ADD:  Not sure that it matters, but I've been only been shooting starting manual loads through it because this handi shoots the mild loads much more accurately than loads nearer the max listed loads.  I've had good success with 95gr ballistic silvertips over 39 grains of h414 with an oal of 2.79", and 55gr ballistic silvertips over 40 grains of h4895 with an oal of 2.70"

Another interesting fact is that the bullet hits the rifling at 2.85", but none of my loads at 2.825" grouped very well.  In most of my other guns I just take it .02 off the rifling and tend to get best groups, but not this handi.

[44 Man]

I would definately try a whole session with no boresnake at all, and also don't do that at the end of the last session.  Leave it dirty for a few sessions and let us know how that works out.  These guys usually know what they are talking about, so I'd give that a try.  Many of these handi's will be wild after a good cleaning until they get 'dirty' again and the groups settle down.  It's worth a try!  44 Man.

[MO]

Cold clean barrel shoots low is the rule................something else going on here.......like wet/oiled latch.

Mc

I've always made sure to take a dry q-tip to the latch area frequently and keep a clean rag on the shooting table and frequently wipe it down when I notice anything while putting in another round.

I would definately try a whole session with no boresnake at all, and also don't do that at the end of the last session.  Leave it dirty for a few sessions and let us know how that works out.  These guys usually know what they are talking about, so I'd give that a try.  Many of these handi's will be wild after a good cleaning until they get 'dirty' again and the groups settle down.  It's worth a try!  44 Man.

  I'll definitely give that a try.  Thank you.

[jeepmann1948]

I use a bit of brake cleaner applied with a Q tip to the latch to keep it dry as a popcorn fart. Be careful with it because it is a great stock finish remover as well  (don't ask how I found out)

[gcrank1]

Dont get 'overspray' on plastic eyeglasses lenses either......

[necchi]

"Cold clean barrel shoots low is the rule................"

 That's my 708, that first shot at 200 goes 3" low, then a nice group. Wait 10 minutes, then the first shot goes low again.

Guess where the scope will be set as hunting season nears?

 I learned to leave it dirty, till the copper fouling opens the groups. Then clean and re-foul w/6-8 shots before I expect it to group again.
 Even if you "just run a snake through it, with a little oil",,,heck if your gonna do that ya might as well clean 100%.

I get 3 shot's right on with the 223, then it needs to cool or I get the vertical strings.
Point is, each one has it's quirks.

[gcrank1]

Sounds like some 'snake oil' salesman got to you.......

[gendoc]

i don't think i've ever put oil on my bore-snake....
heck come ta thank of it... i can't remember even usen the bore snake !!!
naw, i do use it but i can't remember the last time i did.
i'ma believer in put'n her up with a dirty bore until hunting season is over.
then i do the whole 9-yard thing 

[MSP Ret]

I use my bore snakes dry, I always have and they seem to work very well....<><....

[Mac11700]

Mo.

The problem most likely is coming from the Lubalox on the bullets you are using and your disturbing it after each shooting.The ballistic Silver tips are some of my favorite bullets to use..factory or hand loading..and have always been my de-facto shooting loads when testing a barrel. Your actually coating the bore with it every time you shoot one through it.If you are running any type of bore brush with cleaner through it after 3 shots..you will have flyers on your following first shot..Mine wouldn't be exactly 3-4 " higher but more at 10-11 o'clock and about 1-2" out..I took to not cleaning at all when using just them until the velocity spiked or accuracy diminished,just like those who shot moly coated bullets do.

One other thing..don't mix shooting these with regular copper bullets or any with any other coating (Barnes blue) or black Moly on them. You will have a devil of the time getting your accuracy back once you do.I made that mistake with my 243 bull barrel 1 time and won't ever again mix them with anything..As long as you aren't getting condensation in the barrel or hunting in the rain with it..it won't hurt to leave it dry in the barrel with out cleaning..so..if you must..just lightly run a dry patch through it after your done for the day..don't try and clean it.If you are going to store it for a long period..then you have to try to get all of the Lubalox out of the barrel..otherwise it may pit/rust underneath it and you not know it and this will be a real PITA..I use Barnes CR-10 or Montana X-Treme cleaners..along with wipe-out foam cleaner..to completely remove all of it..It's a chore to get it completely clean,if it was rough to begin with..The coating fills in all of these crevices and pit's in your bore along with fulling in next to the lands of your rifling..

The 243 bull barrels are one of my favorites to use..If you want to get away from some start loads with the 95 grainer CTBST..then pick up some Reloader 22 and try loading up to the top end loads with it and some Remington 9-1/2 primers..My first one shoots in the 2's with these..

Good Luck

Mac

[necchi]

One other thing..don't mix shooting these with regular copper bullets or any with any other coating (Barnes blue) or black Moly on them. You will have a devil of the time getting your accuracy back once you do.

Good tip  , I didn't really see that when I read the OP.
 We used Winchester ammo with the Nosler Ballistic Silver tip in the 708, it was the best factory stuff we could find for group.
 I started loading plain cup-n-core copper jacket's and they sprayed all over! Had a dickens of a time cleaning it till a white patch came out white! I won't use them again! I think I'll stay away from coated bullets period.
 Don't get me wrong they'er a good bullet for their porpose, but I'm getting more than satisfactory results with copper and copper jacket.
 Coated bullets are a new whiz-bang I can live without

[Mac11700]

One other thing..don't mix shooting these with regular copper bullets or any with any other coating (Barnes blue) or black Moly on them. You will have a devil of the time getting your accuracy back once you do.

Good tip  , I didn't really see that when I read the OP.
 We used Winchester ammo with the Nosler Ballistic Silver tip in the 708, it was the best factory stuff we could find for group.
 I started loading plain cup-n-core copper jacket's and they sprayed all over! Had a dickens of a time cleaning it till a white patch came out white! I won't use them again! I think I'll stay away from coated bullets period.
 Don't get me wrong they'er a good bullet for their porpose, but I'm getting more than satisfactory results with copper and copper jacket.
 Coated bullets are a new whiz-bang I can live without

The CT BST's are excellent bullets as they are..but..you can always use the regular un-coated ones as well if you dislike the coating. Lubalox does have it's benefits provided you stay with it and not mix it.Using the standard un-coated one Vs the coated one will be around 50-125fps velocity difference once the barrel is fully coated when running near to and max and max+ loads.All of them I have used shows a preference for the max loadings with them too. They give you an edge when working up at the higher pressures..but work against you at the lower velocities by not giving as high of velocity as most books show for the regular BT's..It all depends on what your trying to do with it really..

Once my new 24" BB gets here..I'll start out with some regular C&C Sierra bullets after lapping the bore real good..but most likely will switch over to the CT-SBT's before it all said and done..

Mac

[243_shooter]

my .243 UL is the same way, first three shots out of a clean bore start about 4 inches high n work down to where they should be.  Once i have 6 or so through it its back to bullet on bullet at 100 but clean its just a guessing game.  Strange though how it is always just a few inches high never to the side always perfect side to side?  As for Bullets i have been having great results with the 88grain berger varmit match and IMR 4064 powder, 100 and in its 3 shots 1 torn up hole as long as i can do my part...

[MO]

Update:  Fired of another 10 three shot groups today without cleaning anything and only shooting the coated ballistic silvertips.  It didn't seem to help at all - in fact it's the worst bunch of groups yet.  Best group was .866 and average was about 1.1 and I was only shooting from about 65 yards since it was kinda breezy today and my short range is quite protected from the wind.

Looking back at my notes it seems that my very best groupings in the past were right after bore-snaking with a warm barrel.

Are these 30 rounds without cleaning sufficient to be getting the benefit of the lubalox in the barrel?  Should I stick with this regimen of no cleaning and lubalox bullets only for a while?

A few days ago I ordered a SB2-323 and SB2-457 through my dealer.  They should be in in a week or so.  I sure hope they don't prove to be as difficult as this .243 is to find some sort of sweet spot.

[Mac11700]

Update:  Fired of another 10 three shot groups today without cleaning anything and only shooting the coated ballistic silvertips.  It didn't seem to help at all - in fact it's the worst bunch of groups yet.  Best group was .866 and average was about 1.1 and I was only shooting from about 65 yards since it was kinda breezy today and my short range is quite protected from the wind.

Looking back at my notes it seems that my very best groupings in the past were right after bore-snaking with a warm barrel.

Are these 30 rounds without cleaning sufficient to be getting the benefit of the lubalox in the barrel?  Should I stick with this regimen of no cleaning and lubalox bullets only for a while?

A few days ago I ordered a SB2-323 and SB2-457 through my dealer.  They should be in in a week or so.  I sure hope they don't prove to be as difficult as this .243 is to find some sort of sweet spot.

Since each barrel will determine what shoots best in it..I recommend you remove all traces of the Lubalox and try standard Cup & Core bullets..Yours apparently doesn't like them much with your choice of powder/primers and seems to be getting worse  The only thing I can suggest before stripping out all of the coating is try a different powder with them..my choice would be Reloader 22 with Remington 9-1/2 primers,but my Nosler book shows their most accurate powder was Viht N560...Also in my Nosler book..it shows the majority of loads are the most accurate with the max loads..not the minimum..

Mac

[MO]

Since each barrel will determine what shoots best in it..I recommend you remove all traces of the Lubalox and try standard Cup & Core bullets..Yours apparently doesn't like them much with your choice of powder/primers and seems to be getting worse  The only thing I can suggest before stripping out all of the coating is try a different powder with them..my choice would be Reloader 22 with Remington 9-1/2 primers,but my Nosler book shows their most accurate powder was Viht N560...Also in my Nosler book..it shows the majority of loads are the most accurate with the max loads..not the minimum..

Mac

  OK, I'll try juicing up a few various loads after heading to the local shop in search of some Reloader 22.  If I find a grouping that it seems to like I'll retry a few variations of that.  If it likes none of them I'll give it a massive cleaning and start over with some regular uncoated bullets.

I very much appreciate everyone's time in offering suggestions.  It's nice to know I'm only a keyboard away from lots of good info.

[Mac11700]

If you find it still does this..then do a few things..a check list of sorts before shooting and during shooting..

1)..Make sure the shelf and end of the chamber is completely dry.

2)..You closed it the same exact way as your first shot.Be firm with it on every shot..

3)..Make sure your front rest/and rear rest in already settled down and will remain the same through out you firing for groups..

4)..Make sure you are pulling all the way through with the trigger..don't just let the trigger break and release the trigger..you have to pull all the way through on each and every shot the same way when shooting..This is especially important when shooting for groups from the bench.

5)..On your second shot..make sure the gun is in the bags exactly as it was on your first shot..You could be getting a different bounce from your first/second/third shot if shooting from sand bags as it is settling in.Compact it well before shooting. If shooting from a hard front rest..you will always get a different bounce.

5)..Make sure you in the same position behind the gun..If you change positions..you could be easily changing your cheek weld and your eye position to the reticle of the scope..this is why I always use a soft cheek piece on my stocks..it allows me to have a firm cheek weld with out moving my head and I can return my head to the exact same place each time.

6)..If using prescription glasses..make sure your looking through clean glasses..and if you are wearing bi-focal or tri-focals..make sure you are looking through the same prescription section every time..It doesn't take much to make a difference at 100 yards..

I thought on this for a while wondering why this would do this..I've never experienced this phenomenon you are having exactly as you describe..I have seen variances from shot to shot because of the loads or set up with mine.. If you are still getting the very first shot consistently 2-4" higher than the second/third//and the second/third and the rest of your groups for that session are touching..I kind of suspect it might not the gun or even load..but something else in your set up or shooting procedure.You could take your first shot of the day from a standing or sitting position on the ground..and see if it remains the same..or let some one else shoot it first for the first time..and see if it shots differently for them then you shoot for groups afterwards and see if it still throws the first shot from the bench for you in the same place...this might save you the expense and time of changing everything..

I hope this helps..

Mac

[MO]

In my last update I neglected to add that while keeping it dirty after the previous session my first shot out of the cold barrel didn't ride way up the typical 3 or 4 inches that it did clean - it was only an inch or so high.  That issue aside, the grouping in general are still pretty dismal.

Thanks Mac.  I'll pay extra attention to the latch and chamber end.  Some of those other variables you list don't apply because of the solid rest - I'm using a lead sled with a bag of shot anchoring it and go out of my way to ensure that every variable is constant.  I've got the scope on 16x and the thompson scope targets that I'm using make perfect reticle lineup pretty simple.  Using this same technique I'm able to shoot many touching 5 shot groupings with a host of my other rifles in .17hmr, .6mm, 6.5x55, etc.  Granted, the trigger on this problematic .243 bull bbl is heavy at about 6lbs, but it's crisp enough and the crosshairs aren't moving in the slightest before and while it's going 'boom'.

Off topic, but one other thing I will add that stood out to me yesterday while shooting the 95 gr BST's over 39grains of h414 - and that is how I noticed an ever-so-slight delay between the hammer falling and the actual was able to recognize it.  Don't get me wrong, it's nothing like the noticeable lag in the old muzzleloader, but a slight delay nonetheless, and I was surprised that I was able to actually pick up on it when rotating between the 95gr and 55gr groupings.

[Mac11700]

I basing what I said about your set up..to what you described the problem with..

My problem is that every time it's the first shot of the day, and the barrel is cold, the first shot hits 2 to 4 inches higher of typical POI.  #'s 2 and 3 of the first group are fine, and it's fine for the rest of the session - it's just the first one that's high every time

I honestly don't think it's the load since this is consistent every time time you shoot it..Shooting the rest of the groups in the 3s & 4's is a very fine shooting rifle..(0.303 and 0.459, 3 shot groups at 100 yards)...

Snap it closed hard every time..and settle yourself behind the rifle in the same place every time..and see what happens

Mac

[MO]

Well, put another 10 three shot groups through it yesterday.

Conclusions:
1- It looks like the cold barrel flyer issue is solved.  Simply keeping it dirty kept the first shot from jumping way up.
2- However, keeping it dirty and sticking with the lubalox ballistic silvertips has negatively affected the groupings.  The lighter loads that occasionally grouped under half inch when shot out of a warm, clean barrel opened up about 50% when the barrel was left dirty.

It looks like I'm going to have to take it down and give it a good scrubbing.  I'm going to clean it then run some soft patches down the barrel and see if there's any resistance.  Maybe I'll have to take some flitz to it.  Looking down the barrel there appears to be some imperfections, but I can't be sure until I get it all cleaned up.

I'll then work up a bunch of loads with regular copper bullets and see if maybe the gun just doesn't like the lubalox.

If it then doesn't improve there will be a new addition in the classifieds section of a 24" bull .243 barrel. 

Will update in a day or two.

If anyone comes up with anything for me to try while or after cleaning it feel free to post.

Many thanks. 

[Mac11700]

Good luck with it..

I know you tried..I plan on working through regular Cup & Core bullets before I even try any of the CT BST..Since those weights work pretty good for you..if you want to stay with the Nosler..just use the un-coated ones..While pricey...I know many who swear by these..http://www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Varmint%20Bullets.html..I'm going to try some of the 69 grain varmint as soon as I get my frame and new 30-06 barrels back from Wayne York..I don't really need to work up any deer loads for this one yet..but will pick up some of the 95 grain ones too

Mac