Range Report - 357 Mag SMOOTH BORE

[Land_Owner]

If you are familiar with this older thread, jump to the END (of page 1) to read about "improvements".



After a stock refit per recommendations from quickdtoo, I shot for groups today and got something entirely different.

I started with four 185 grain WC's that chronographed 1,000 fps (+/-) as fouling shots.  Not a bad group at 4" for a powder load of 4.6 grains, but I expected better, and 185 grain WC's were not the test today.

For accuracy, I shot groups of the same weight powder charge of 3 x 158 grain Hornady SWC's.  I started at the upper end and worked downward.  The upper end tested was still 20% below max. book loads.

The 158 x 4.5 grain group was "Minute of Berm" and chronographed about 1,050 fps (+/-) as was 4.4 grains (~1,025 fps), 4.3 grains (~1,000), and 4.2 grains (a little less).

Then 4.1 grains really tightened up (sort of) and produced the best group of the day at 2.1"

I took my time.  Didn't heat up the barrel, front rest at the trigger guard, and continued down charge to 3.0 grains with no group approaching the best and all subsequent groups getting significantly WORSE.

About 3/4 of the way through, Dave looks at me and says, "Pretty good groups for a smooth bore."

Huh?

"Lead bullets over 1,000 fps 'cut themselves' on the rifling, filling the grooves, and it is surprising you are hitting the target at all.  With no rifling to rotate and stabilize the bullets, their trajectory is sporadic, which is the result we're getting."

So I am cleaning the bore and starting over.  Perhaps just the 4.1 grains, but today was no test.

[petemi]

I don't mean to sound smart assed, but why?  I'd save my lead and powder for a rifled barrel.  That's just me.  If it were primitive, I could enjoy it.

Pete

[Dee]

I'm glad you asked that petemi. Where do you get a smooth bore 357 mag, and why do you get it? What are your plans and expectations of this one Land_Owner? I didn't know there was such a thing. Is it homemade?

[Badnews Bob]

I think you guys have miss read him. He thinks he has leaded the bore badly and is gonna clean it well and try again. I have never had this bad of a problem shooting light loaded cast in mine however. I sure hope your luck gets better Landowner.

[dpe.ahoy]

Little to much lead left in the barrel I'm guessin.  Your's may be a barrel that has to be lapped to get her smooth enough to not lead up.  I'm feelin for ya Land owner, you have really been fightin this one.  DP

[MSP Ret]

When you say lead I hope you don't really mean (pure) lead. Try wheelwieghts, and if your still getting excessive leading and poor groups try adding a gas check. You may need to change your bullet if it is not set up to use a gas check.....<><....

[PawPaw]

"Lead bullets over 1,000 fps 'cut themselves' on the rifling, filling the grooves, ..."

Respectfully, I disagree.

If you're getting much lead at 1,050 fps, your alloy is too soft.  Cast bullets do best when the pressure of the cartridge is no greater than the tensile strength of the bullet.  Faster bullets (more pressure) require a harder alloy.  I routinely drive gas-checked bullets to 1850 fps out of my .30-30s with no leading.  Hard lead, good lube, fast bullets.  Some guys drive them harder than I do, but if I need to go any faster than that, I'll use jacketed.

I routinely shoot the .357 with cast bullets to 1600 fps.  I use a 180 grain hard cast bullet, gas-checked, with two coats of Lee Liquid Alox, and L'il Gun powder.  That same load gives 1200 fps from my SW 28-2.

Clean the barrel and try again.  There's no good reason why you can't get good groups with cast loads in the .357.

[Dee]

I've shot lead WWs, at 1800 fps in a 405 grain out of a 4570 with no leading, and I shoot a gas check WWs 170 grain in a 3030 at 2350 fps with no leading. Full wad cutter bullets are almost pure lead and part of their accuracy is in that the hollow base fills with gas, and expands the bullet to bore diameter. Their supposed to be a target load, and slow. I ain't real sure what he's doing lookin at his post. I already mis-understood on the barrel, so I think I'll just watch from here.

[LaOtto222]

I am using 148 grain wad cutters running about 850 fps in 38 Special cases down a 22" barrel that has been reamed to Max. I get no leading at all. The bore is still shinny after 75 rounds or so. I have run jacketed bullets intermittently down the bore. I am using Hornady bullets which are fairly hard. I know they are not pure lead, must be an alloy of some sort. As has been said, there has to some thing amiss if you are getting lead fouling at 1000 fps.

[Land_Owner]

I don't have a bore scope so I can't tell if the grooves are leaded or not.  I will know when it is cleaned later this morning.  What I know is this 357 Mag Handi is just not getting it.  I do not cast bullets.  They are older (circa 1980's) standard Hornady 158 grain Match SWC's.

If this barrel improves after a good cleaning with some of the lighter loads (as next time it will be a bottom up shooting session with lighter charged loads first), I will suspect leading and try to keep velocities below the leading threshold of that bullet.  If it does not improve, then this barrel and/or forend are due for an overhaul.

You guys are getting bullet holes in targets to touch one another.  "Tack Drivers" you call them.  Mine will drive tacks if you hit the tacks with the stock.  Frustrating.

For now, I am trying to - at least - get groups of three on paper.  I will remove the forearm at the next range session.

For the record, the scope and rings are tight.   Come to think of it, I suppose you could drive those tack by hitting them with the scope too...

[gcrank1]

Those bullets were factory swaged and at this age are probably dead soft. You dont need a bore scope to see leading, especially in a handy, because you can look through the breech toward a light so easy.
Leading will look like streaks running up the grooves. With a snug brush you will really work to get it out, After the brush gets loose, wrap some 4-0- steel around it and polish the rest out.
If you check the website of 'The Cast Bullet Association' (and others) you will find that the cause of leading, given that your alloy is reasonably close to the right hardness for the velo, is undersized bullets to the throat, allowing gas to get past the base and melt lead off the bullets much like a cutting torch does steel and leave it in the bore.
If you take one of your fired cases will that bullet youre using just drop in the case mouth?

[Mac11700]

Try some of these..it might make it a tack driver without the leading..

http://www.castperformance.com/Categories.bok?category=Cast+Performance

Not too bad a price for them and they do have your weights your shooting

Mac

[Land_Owner]

You dont need a bore scope to see leading, especially in a handy, because you can look through the breech toward a light so easy.  Leading will look like streaks running up the grooves.

If you take one of your fired cases will that bullet youre using just drop in the case mouth?

You are most certainly correct.  I can see and count 6 distinct lands - evenly dispursed -  circumfrentially speaking.  None of the lands is very tall and the grooves appear to the unaided eye to be clear and unobstructed.  The rifle is not yet cleaned, and allowing for powder residue, the end-to-end bore appears smooth and shiny.

A new bullet will not easily fall into a fired round.  What does that tell me?

[gcrank1]

I sounds like you dont have leading and the bullet dia. is OK! Still give it a good cleaning. If you can lay a red cloth under the muzzle as you brush/patch it you can see any 'ribbons' or spots of silvery leading against the red cloth color pretty well, if there is some.
If you like the fit (have you mic'ed them, often packaged dia. are 'nominal') of that bullet have you tried loading them as is in unsized cases? If you size a case down and press a soft lead bullet into it you will squeeze a bullet dia down some too. Since they are soft use fast burning powder, about 6.0 Unique is good, at the lower end of the data and see what happens.
If that doesnt work, save them and get those bullets Mac mentions at the measured dia that fits the fired case neck.
  

[gcrank1]

I took a dog walk and thought on this some more. I know we've been beating this around the tree and I havent re-read everything, but.......
Did you say that youve tried some factory loads, jacketed and lead bullet? This thing should shoot generic .357Mag with reasonable accurracy. Handloads can often overcome problems that factory doesnt, but a new rifle should shoot factory loads. If it wont, they should fix/replace it.
Now a used gun, out of warrantee, I would try to get it up and running. Or, if all I wanted it to ever do was shoot my handloads, I would mess about trying to find a load that worked first (and Lord knows Ive had fits with some of them).
You only deserve just so much aggravation and frustration. Wouldnt it be sweet if you sent it back (on their nickle) and got a working gun in return!

[quickdtoo]

Land owner, is your Handi a factory rifle?  With the forend removed, is the barrel tight to the frame, no wiggle or gap between the barrel and standing breech? Since you already tried factory ammo in it, If it is a factory made rifle or a factory fitted acc barrel(last 3 or 4 digits of serial number on the underlug),  I'd be contacting H&R to make arrangements to send it in for repair, you may have a bad barrel, crown, or it's poorly fitted, the factory standard is 2" 3-shot 100yd groups with factory ammo, if it won't do that, it needs to be repaired, as long as you're sure it's not a bad scope which is always a possibility.

FWIW, mine shoots 140gr Hornady ammo poorly,  but it still shoots 3-4" groups at 100yds, that's the only ammo I've shot in it.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,203299.msg1099057347.html#msg1099057347

[Land_Owner]

What constitutes a "factory rifle"?  This wasn't a Big Box, National Chain, local store deal.  It was a NIB gun legitimately purchased from a GBO Member (an FFL/Dealer) with proper NIC check, paperwork, and  transfer.  How long does the factory warranty run on NIB guns?  I am about to achieve the  1-year anniversary.

On the underlug is scribed "015" and a larger "P" off by itself (for "Proofed"?).  The last three digits of the serial # is "015".  Seems they were made/fitted together.  With forarm off and breech closed there is a tight lock up - no wiggle.  I have not shot this rifle with the forearm off.  Crown looks good with no nicks, dings, blemishes, etc.  Barrel is thick.  The rifle feels good in the hand.  

The scope is a 30-30 caliber Marlin 336 tested Tasco "Golden Antler", nothing to write home about.  My boys and I have shot through it, sighted it in on other guns, and I trust it.  It is locked down and tight.

I tried, before forearm fitting work, 140 grain Hornady Leverevolution, 158 gr Sellers & Beloit, and 158 gr Remington factory ammunition with "Minute of Berm" inaccuracy.  I tried reloading 158 grain Hornady lead SWC's, Hunter's Supply SWC's, and GBO Member cast WC's, which cast 185 grain WC's offer signifigant promise - I like that larger end of the spectrim, but not for the handgun per se.

I would like a 158 grain rounds to complement both my Ruger SP101 and this Handi.  If it is going to be the 185 grain round, I am OK with that too.  Best thing about this, I am reloading a lot (223, 45, 380, 357), getting out to the range a lot, shooting a lot, and having a blast, LITERALLY!

I am DEFINATELY not finished with this effort yet.

[gcrank1]

I'd say you have put a good and thoughtful bit of money and work equity into this rifle and it wouldnt be premature of you to give Rem/H&R a call.

[quickdtoo]

Sounds like a factory made rifle to me, it should shoot the Rem ammo acceptably, I think that's what they normally use. Rather then spending more time and money trying to get it to shoot, give em a call and explain what you've done so far and ask em to cover return shipping to Ilion for repair, they should send you a prepaid UPS shipping label,  normal warranty is 2yrs, but they even repair second hand guns with no charge, you won't find better service standards.    toll free (866)776-9292

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/support/repairs.asp

[gendoc]

i think you should try 158gr jacketed bullets, lil gun, 4227, or h110
and load'um up near max. thats been proved a million times in the mag, hand or long guns.

i know your mostly concerned with lead but when you send it in for repair,
do you really think there going to test it with lead casted boolits ??

[grendelbane]

I saw where you said your bullets were from the 1980s.  Swaged lead bullets that are over 2 decades old could conceivably have had the lube oxidize away.

I am not a chemist, and perhaps oxidize is the wrong term.  I do know that I have some bullets of a similar age, and the lube looks dried out.  Perhaps the same thing has happened here.

I suggest trying some recent swaged bullets, if that is what you want to use, or lubing the old ones again with Lee Liquid Alox.

That is the best suggestion I can come up with.

[Land_Owner]

Decades old bullets are mica lubed, which neither goes bad nor needs relube.

I called H&R and requested the shipping label this afternoon (4/6).  I will let the Forum know how this turns out as I will be hot on the "tune up trail" when it is returned.

Do you suspect they will give me grief for sanding on the forearm to receiver interface?

Stand by...

[gcrank1]

Hope it all goes well.
Did you sand that to smooth it up to help prevent wear to the plastic spacer, or to adjust the tension?
If the latter, it would be better to sand the wood to spacer interface a smidge, though they do seat in with use and Id rather it be a tad tight than loose.

[quickdtoo]

They won't care about the sanding on the forend.

On the synthetic stock there's no spacer, so the only choice is to sand the frame interface or makes changes the forend stud hole. On a wood forend, flat sanding the spacer is a lot easier than messing with the wood, a lot cheaper to replace too, and no need to do any more sanding on a replacement to float the barrel. 

Tim

[Land_Owner]

Just got the 357 Handi back from Remington (via UPS).  All work (rebarrel) and shipping both ways covered under warranty.  Now to the RANGE!

Why did the UPS guy (and several folks in my office) quip, "So, now you're gonna go shoot sombody?" when delivering (or seeing) a firearm in its box that was return shipped from repair?  Where does that ignorant attitude originate?

[quickdtoo]

It's just that, ignorance!  Hope H&R solved the problem for ya and it shoots great. 

Tim

[Land_Owner]

I finally got to the range today (a month late?) to sight in and test the new barrel.  It was over 95 degrees F, calm, and cloudless today.  Humidity was hovering about 95 percent.  Muggy was an appropriate word; thick enough to cut it with a knife.

I set the target at 100 yards, fired five shots, and wouldn't you know...I wasn't on paper....but I was close.  I adjusted the scope and continued firing Sellers & Beloit 158 gr. JFP with a remarkable 1450 fps, standard deviation of 12.  this is some of the most CONSISTENT Factory ammunition I have ever fired.

Still not getting below 4" - 5" accuracy,even with a new barrel.  have to go back tot he loading bench and see how it functions under some reduced velocity 158 gr. LSWC loads, some Hornady LeverEvolution ammo, and some 185 gr LWC loads.

[john-78]

you might want to try a little lighter bullit, mine will shoot 125-140 gr. in .38 or .357 all day long with same POI at same POA, when i load any flavor 158 gr. POI drops about 2 inches. this is around 50 yards.  But even with the elevation diff. the 158's are still 2" @ 100 yds.  ( btw, i made a sled to make shure it wasn't me)

[bikerbeans]

LO,

Last year a buddy lent me his older 357 Handi.  I could not get it to shoot cast lead of any type, either 357s hot and plinky 38s or anything in the middle.  I did not try any gas checked bullets.  I then loaded up some IMR 4227 with 158 grain jacketed Hornady XTPs and problem solved.  I think Gendoc mentioned this early and with maybe a bit faster loading with H110 or 296 (these 2 are the same powder).  I also loaded the 125 grain XTPs with a max load of 4227 and got the same accuracy.  I was shooting sub 2" @ 100 yards with a $30 4X power norinco scope.

One note, if your wife is kinda small don't give her any of these 357 rounds to shoot out of your Model 28 revolver.  She will not be happy!

BB

[Land_Owner]

I agree bb.  The SP101 bites the hand that feeds it.  Never had a handgun that performed like that before.  I can now see how LEO's who are required to shoot 100-200 qualifying rounds would be exhausted after a day with a snubby 357 magnum and the WRONG ammunition.

Mac11700 - I ordered 400 x 180 grain x 38 (0.354").  We shall see.  Now I need to find some suitable powder.



Here is a photo of three of yesterday's Sellers & Beloit cases.  

On the right is a NORMAL - single indent primer.  In the middle is a DOUBLE TAPPED primer.  On the left is an EMBOSSED (raised) primer

I have NEVER seen a raised primer from ANY ammunition - EVER!  I should not have had to double tap MULTIPLE manufacturer's rounds.