Author Topic: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?  (Read 888 times)

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Offline wreckhog

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Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« on: April 04, 2010, 07:28:36 AM »
Seeing a move to do this. Is it possible?

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 08:54:25 AM »
The guy lives in Rome, I don't think the United States has jurisdiction.
                               Beerbelly

Offline S.S.

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 05:38:58 AM »
Some people seem to be above the laws of mere mortals!
Right along with ball players, actors and pop stars!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 08:41:20 AM »
Such a move would establish an interesting precedent. It would strengthen the UN, further erode personal protection under the law, and pave the way for prosecuting anyone for anything even if they weren't involved in the crime.

Last I checked Catholics believe the Pope can forgive sins. Sounds like he forgave the priest. His crime? Failure to report? That's protected by law even in our country, specifically Title 10 of US code grants military chaplains privileged communication protected from subpoena or reporting requirements. Most states have laws protecting clergy from the type of prosecution you suggest. It's as though we expect the police to do their job and the church not to do it for them. Radical I know.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 08:48:15 AM »
I believe the Pope lives in the Vatican which is a City State in itself defended by the Swiss Guard not under jursidiction of Italy . To try and attack the Pope may indeed wake a sleeping giant if all Catholics respond in his defense.
 
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Offline wreckhog

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sexually molesting children? no problemo says the Pope
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 11:18:23 AM »
Future Pope Stalled on Abuse Case, Letter SuggestsBy THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: April 9, 2010
 
Filed at 3:58 p.m. ET

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children, citing concerns including ''the good of the universal church,'' according to a 1985 letter bearing his signature.

The correspondence, obtained by The Associated Press, is the strongest challenge yet to the Vatican's insistence that Benedict played no role in blocking the removal of pedophile priests during his years as head of the Catholic Church's doctrinal watchdog office.

The letter, signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was typed in Latin and is part of years of correspondence between the Diocese of Oakland and the Vatican about the proposed defrocking of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle.

The Vatican refused to comment on the contents of the letter Friday, but a spokesman confirmed it bore Ratzinger's signature.

''The press office doesn't believe it is necessary to respond to every single document taken out of context regarding particular legal situations,'' the Rev. Federico Lombardi said. ''It is not strange that there are single documents which have Cardinal Ratzinger's signature.''

The diocese recommended removing Kiesle (KEEZ'-lee) from the priesthood in 1981, the year Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican office that shared responsibility for disciplining abusive priests.

The case then languished for four years at the Vatican before Ratzinger finally wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins. It was two more years before Kiesle was removed; during that time Kiesle continued to do volunteer work with children through the church.

In the November 1985 letter, Ratzinger says the arguments for removing Kiesle are of ''grave significance'' but added that such actions required very careful review and more time. He also urged the bishop to provide Kiesle with ''as much paternal care as possible'' while awaiting the decision, according to a translation for AP by Professor Thomas Habinek, chairman of the University of Southern California Classics Department.

But the future pope also noted that any decision to defrock Kiesle must take into account the ''good of the universal church'' and the ''detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke within the community of Christ's faithful, particularly considering the young age.'' Kiesle was 38 at the time.

Kiesle had been sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory.

As his probation ended in 1981, Kiesle asked to leave the priesthood and the diocese submitted papers to Rome to defrock him.

In his earliest letter to Ratzinger, Cummins warned that returning Kiesle to ministry would cause more of a scandal than stripping him of his priestly powers.

''It is my conviction that there would be no scandal if this petition were granted and that as a matter of fact, given the nature of the case, there might be greater scandal to the community if Father Kiesle were allowed to return to the active ministry,'' Cummins wrote in 1982.

While papers obtained by the AP include only one letter with Ratzinger's signature, correspondence and internal memos from the diocese refer to a letter dated Nov. 17, 1981, from the then-cardinal to the bishop. Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith a week later.

California church officials wrote to Ratzinger at least three times to check on the status of Kiesle's case. At one point, a Vatican official wrote to say the file may have been lost and suggested resubmitting materials.

Diocese officials considered writing Ratzinger again after they received his 1985 response to impress upon him that leaving Kiesle in the ministry would harm the church, Rev. George Mockel wrote in a memo to the Oakland bishop.

''My own reading of this letter is that basically they are going to sit on it until Steve gets quite a bit older,'' the memo said. ''Despite his young age, the particular and unique circumstances of this case would seem to make it a greater scandal if he were not laicized.''

Irwin Zalkin, an attorney representing some of the victims, said he was familiar with the correspondence but wouldn't provide documents to AP.

''Cardinal Ratzinger was more concerned about the avoidance of scandal than he was about protecting children,'' Zalkin said in a phone interview. ''That was a central theme.''

As Kiesle's fate was being weighed in Rome, the priest returned to suburban Pinole to volunteer as a youth minister at St. Joseph Church, where he had served as associate pastor from 1972 to 1975.

Kiesle was ultimately stripped of his priestly powers in 1987, though the documents do not indicate when, how or why. They also don't indicate what role -- if any -- Ratzinger had in the decision.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 12:58:21 PM »
Its interesting how the AP headline seems to imply that the Church delayed justice, but that is not the case. In the text of the story we learn the fact the priest was tried, found guilty, and placed on probation for 3 years by a criminal court. RINO would not apply; due process of law occurred. Police did their job.

So the issue is that Ratzinger at the time advocated taking more time to review before defrocking ... which is an issue of the church, not the state. Something common in non-Catholic churches is a Pastor commiting adultery. Again, its a matter of the church to determine if they should continue in the office, and if so with what sort of safeguards. Lots of different opinions on that within the church, and how a church handles that has larger ramfications in the community of faith.

But nothing for the State to be involved in.

Wreckhog, are you implying that the State should be able to tell the Church how to run matters of faith and practice?
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 01:04:52 PM »
Crime was commited, church covered it up.

If your underling commited a crime and you covered it up, but but punished them by transferring them to NJ, would that be justice served?

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 01:17:13 PM »
Helping to conceal a crime IS A CRIME.  I don't think there is a viable way for the US to prosecute the pope, nor do I think an attempt to do so would be anything other than a circus, but I am disgusted by the behavior or the pope and the Vatican in response to this whole issue.  I honestly do not understand how anyone can see the facts of this situation and continue to be a Catholic.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 01:42:12 PM »
Did you not read the article you posted? The crime was not covered up. He was found guilty, did his time. Ratzinger delayed a request for defrocking which was filed AFTER the sentence of 3 years probation was served. No one covered up a crime.

Read the article gents. Seriously. If you're mad at the church fine, but get your facts straight.
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 01:49:36 PM »
Did you not read the article you posted? The crime was not covered up. He was found guilty, did his time. Ratzinger delayed a request for defrocking which was filed AFTER the sentence of 3 years probation was served. No one covered up a crime.

Read the article gents. Seriously. If you're mad at the church fine, but get your facts straight.
I was refering more to the info that has come to light since this post was started.

From an AP story today:
Quote
LOS ANGELES – The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children, citing concerns including "the good of the universal church," according to a 1985 letter bearing his signature.

The correspondence, obtained by The Associated Press, is the strongest challenge yet to the Vatican's insistence that Benedict played no role in blocking the removal of pedophile priests during his years as head of the Catholic Church's doctrinal watchdog office.

The letter, signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was typed in Latin and is part of years of correspondence between the Diocese of Oakland and the Vatican about the proposed defrocking of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 02:00:43 PM »
Quote
The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children

So what he resisted was defrocking. Again, he did not cover up a crime, or conceal a crime. And he was brought into the dialogue only when the request for defrocking came up AFTER the priest had paid his debt to society, which was years after the crime was committed.

Do we not understand that "defrocking" does not fall under California or Federal penal code? Defrocking is a decision of the Church regarding the ordination of one of its clergy. However they choose to manage who is ordained or not is really up to them, and cannot be mandated by a Judge.

Do you have evidence that they continued to employ a registered sex offender, which this priest would be, in ministry to children? That would be violating the terms of his status as a sex offender, would it not? Did Ratzinger try to cover up the fact that they were continuing to use a registered sex offender in ministry to children?

No, because that's not what's going on. The issue is Ratzinger advocated taking time to review before they removed ordination from a priest who had been found guilty, and served his sentence.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 02:01:48 PM »
Something common in non-Catholic churches is a Pastor commiting adultery.

TN. Can't agree with ya on this one. Big difference between a Pastor committing adultery and a priest repeatedly raping and molesting young children. It's the catholic churches job, their obligation, to make darned sure that the pedophile priest NEVER EVER gets a chance to repeat his crime. Tha catholic church has been guilty for many many years of covering up these crimes, and they ARE crimes. During trials in Lou a few years back several guilty priests admitted that they had gone into the priesthood because they were homosexual and liked little boys. They said they knew the church would lie for them and protect them. They said they knew that they would never spend a day in jail. YEP, big difference. I actually did some work for one of those priests. I never would have dreamed that he was a pervert. He not only had his own parish, he was also the police chaplin. They called him shotgun cause he loved carrying one on certain calls. Had the catholic church done it's job every time they found one of these perverts thousands of children would have been saved a lifetime of grief. I can imagine the parishoners grief finding out that their tithes and offerings were going to pay off victims of child abuse. Another thing, several nuns testified that they knew of the sexual abuse. When asked why they did nothing they replied, the father is always right. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline dukkillr

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 02:10:51 PM »
That people continue to defend the Pope and the Vatican only furthers my belief that Catholics are discouraged from thinking for themselves.  I honestly cannot understand how an educated person, free of influence, can reach a different conclusion than that the Catholic church has led a dedicated effort to hide disgusting, horrible, crimes in both the distant and not-so-distant path.  If they are the pathway to anything, it is not heaven.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 02:37:27 PM »
PMan, my comparison to adultery in other churches is strictly as it relates to the decision of the church to keep that person ordained. Not whether or not adultery is the same as child molestation. The state should not be able to tell FBC County Seat whether or not their adultrous pastor can be the pastor, any more than the state should be able to tell the Vatican if their molesting priest can be a priest. They can tell them he can't work around children as a registered sex offender.

duk, Yes, the Catholic church has covered up alot of crimes, for well over a thousand years. They used to send their worst cases into military Chaplaincy in the hopes that they'd be "reformed" by a disciplined environment. We had to clean our own house because of it. This priest was tried, sentenced, and served. Right? This case was not covered up.

But Ratzinger is not being implicated in any of that. It takes a truly free thinker to see through blind hatred, and focus on the facts of a particular case. So many people are mad at the church they read the headline, skip the text, and assume the Pope covered up crimes. No where in anything that has been posted here has anyone made that accusation. Focus on the word "defrocking" ... that's the issue.

BTW, the Catholics are the ones upset about "defrocking." Not the rest of us.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 02:42:19 PM »
I went to high school with a catholic boy, we were good friends. He told me one day, I'm going to make a good catholic out of you before long. I said, there are few things in life I am sure of, but thats one of them, no, you wont. He said why not?? I told him confession was a pet peeve of mine. He said, but you have to confess to the priest to get through to God. I said, Joe, do you pray when you go to bed at night??? He said, of course I do. I asked, do you sleep with a priest??? He said, now you're confusing me, I'll have to ask my Dad. I said Joe, you are like every other catholic I've ever talked to. You know exactly what you believe because it's been drilled into you, but you have no idea why, other than the church says so. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 04:33:35 PM »
It's that faith thing. That all religious people have. What is faith? It is believing in some thing you know dam well can't be true!
                                     Beerbelly

Offline powderman

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 06:52:27 AM »
Quote
[What is faith? It is believing in some thing you know dam well can't be true!
                                     Beerbelly/quote]

BEERBELLY. True in a way. I know you can't live if you've been dead for 3 days, but I also KNOW Jesus dit it. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Use the RICO act to bust the Pope on pedophile charges?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2010, 09:38:17 AM »
Faith is more than believing in things that can't be true . Blind faith may be as you decribe . We christians believe in the stories in the Bible have faith in them if you will . The flood is a big one we accepted for years on faith . It seems in the land where the Bible took place there was in fact a large flood proven by discovery in digs . Remember these people did not know of any other land but what they lived in . So it would appear the world as they knew it was flooded . Faith is a great thing , with out it what would we be ? I would hate to go to sleep with out faith i would wake up .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !