handi brass problem with pics

[Yak Angler]

First off let me make it clear that i just reloaded my first round ever about 2 hours ago.

The problem i am having is all of the brass i am trying to reload was only ever fired once from this gun. None of the rounds had any type of extraction problem after being fired. When i try to re-insert the once fired cases and close the gun it gets hung up and the gun won't close all the way. Closer inspection of the cases show a ridge about 1/4" from the head of the case. which is a slight swelling that runs about half way around the case. Is this brass junk or is there anyway to fix it? new factory cartridges slide in without any problems. I am wondering why after firing them they extracted effortlessly but now won't even come close to going in without slamming the action closed.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions
In case it matter's the equipment i have to reload with right now is
lee loader .270 win----only neck sizes
digital scale

both these worked great, only problem im having is the brass

[quickdtoo]

They need to be full length resized, then it will work fine.  Neck sizing high pressure rounds will only work with mild loads, you may be able to get away with partial full length sizing, just setting the full length die so it pushes the shoulder back just enough so the sized brass will be flush with the chamber face, if it sticks out any, depending on the barrel to breech clearance, it won't allow the action to lock up fully.

Tim

[Badnews Bob]

Looks to me like you have your resizing die miss adjusted, I think it isn't sizing all the way down.

And no the cases are not junk, they still be good.

[Yak Angler]

I don't currently have any resizing dies, All i have to reload with right now is a lee loader, its the old school little kit that you use a hammer and punches to disable and re-assmble the cartridge.

From what both of you said i need to get some kind of press capable of full length sizing, all the lee loader is capable of is neck sizing only. I was hopeing to keep my start up reloading costs as low as possible which is why i went with the lee loader. I guess an entry level press and dies for the .270 wouldn't be all that much money though?

Is there anything i should consider before i buy them?

[kevinsmith5]

Did you use case lube before resizing?  You may have deformed the cases as you hammered them into the die to resize. With the Lee loader you need to use some sort of lube to keep the pressure at the base of the case from getting great enough to malform the case.

[quickdtoo]

I haven't used the Lee Loader die bottlenecked rounds, but are you sure you're hammering the case into the die body fully?  That may make a difference. There's tons of info in the Handloading forum which I think is a better place for this, so I'll move it there for ya. 

Tim

[Yak Angler]

Thanks Tim

The problem with these cases is before and after sizing them in the lee loader. They are deformed coming out of the gun i guess. Im just surprised that they extracted so easily after beig fired but now won't go back in the chamber without alot of force, Is this normal?. Just to make sure, will a full length resizing die 100% allow me to re-use these cases. I just don't want to shell out more money on relaoding gear if it won't fix this problem.

[quickdtoo]

That's pretty normal, you may be able to get them back in if they're indexed in the chamber to the same orientation as they were when fired, but full length resizing is the best route I think, try rotating the round in the chamber and see if it will fully chamber in one particular position.

Tim

[bikerbeans]

Adam,

Is your brass "brass" or nickel plated brass?  I have most of my trouble with the nickel plated stuff even with full length resizing. 

Lee makes some fairly inexpensive presses.  I have been looking at one to put in my hunting camper as I would rather reload than play cards or watch movies.  I believe it's called the Lee Loader or Lee Reloader, it is a single stage press and a new one at the local gun shop is about $32 (US).  You also need their AutoPrimer system which I think is about $18.  You still have to have a regular set of dies for this, Lee's probably the cheapest, maybe $25 or so for a set with a full length sizing die. 

One other thought, did you check the length of your once fired brass?  My wife shot some 22-250 factory ammo in her Handi and most of it was over-length after the initial firing. 

BB

[Lloyd Smale]

if those cases in the picture are from after being shot and before you tried to size them you have a gun problem. Have you tried factory ammo in that gun and is so did they have the ridge on them too. You look like your about a breath away from case head seperation. Usually a ring around the case that severe is do to improper headspacing or an improper cut chamber. If that picture is from after you sized and the ring wasnt there before its probably your lee loader. bottom line is if your cases looked like that after firing factory ammo DO NOT SHOOT THAT GUN!

[securitysix]

Buy a Lee Hand Press and a set of Lee dies for the caliber you're loading (.270, yes?).  Your setup cost will still be pretty low, and you'll get an upper body workout.  Be sure to use case lube, but not too much. 

[kevinsmith5]

I had a similiar (though less severe) problem when I first got my BC where their was a bulge at the base of fired cases.  They would rechamber, but I thought there was a problem with the chamber. Turned out that the Hornady LE brass was .05" narrower at the base than spec and that was the cause of the bulge.

[mdi]

if those cases in the picture are from after being shot and before you tried to size them you have a gun problem. Have you tried factory ammo in that gun and is so did they have the ridge on them too. You look like your about a breath away from case head seperation. Usually a ring around the case that severe is do to improper headspacing or an improper cut chamber. If that picture is from after you sized and the ring wasnt there before its probably your lee loader. bottom line is if your cases looked like that after firing factory ammo DO NOT SHOOT THAT GUN!

+1.  You can see the buldge about 1/4" form the base of the once fired factory rounds. Looks like headspace (?) problems.

[Yak Angler]

That buldge was there after firing with factory ammo. The brass in the picture has only been fired once and that was as a factory load. I have ordered the lee hand press today with a set of die's which will allow me to full length re-size now. If head spacing is the problem can i adjust the overall length of the cartridge's by adjusting the seating depth of the bullet in the case? If so should i being trying a shorter overall length or a longer one compared to the factory cartridge?

Thanks for all the help guys, i am a total noob at this reloading stuff. I got myself a digital caliper today so i can take measurements if that will help to figure out how to remedy this issue. I lost my large micrometer during my recent move so until it turns up i figure a digital caliber will be good enough.

[Badnews Bob]

Head spacing is set by the rim on .44s not the bullet, when you get your press resize a few and let us know what you get, I am sure we can help you from there but we need to eliminate variables ya know.

[sk330lc]

ADAM_R,  
  Stop what you are doing please.   Go BUY the Lymann 48th reloading Manual or an other good reloading manual.  Read it then read it again.  They explain very well about head space and how to adjust your dies.  It explains how to inspect your cases and how to properly load them.  I'm not trying to be smart. This is the only way, you will understand whats going on with your reloads.
  As Lloyd said the cases in the picture are showing Case Head Separation.  This is a Very Bad thing.      

[trotterlg]

The lee loader does not full length size the cases, it neck sizes and bumps the sholder a little.  The bulge you see is normal, this is the point that the base of the cartridge turns solid to hold the primer pocket and extractor  groove.  The brass case expands to seal the chamber, in a Handi the extractor or ejector holds the round up against the top of the chamer, so they usually buldge at the bottom on one side and not evenly all the way around like a bolt gun does.  Brass is also very seldom the maximum size listed in the SAAMI standards, so it must expand more to seal the chamber and makes the bulge bigger.  If this is repeated many times you will get the case to seperate at this point, but this is a normal failure from reloading brass too many times also.  Usually brass will split the neck before it fails at the case head from too many reloadings.  What you see is not a good thing, but it is a normal thing, pick up some range brass next time you are thre and you will see what I am telling you.  Top to bottom from my 20-06 is a once fired case, a once fired case that has been full length resized and a cut away so you can see why it bulges where it does.  Larry

[necchi]

+1 on the book idea, if you can't buy one check your local Library, most have at least 1 on the shelves.

[billy_56081]

I agree with Larry here that is just normal expansion above the solid part of the case head. You need to full length size them as a handi allows them to stretch when fired.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got no experience with handi rifles and there idiosycracys but that is more bulge then ive ever seen out of any cases shot in any gun. If handi rifles all allow that much brass stretch i guess im not going to ever fool with one as i doubt your going to get more then another firing out of that brass before you have seperation and i dont want to be the one pulling the trigger when that happens. My guess is your chamber isnt cut correctly and or you have a severe headspace problem. Anyone who thinks that it is normal either hasnt looked closely at those case or are playing with some very crappy guns. If you look the bulges arent even uniform from one case to another. bottom line is you should be able to rechamber once fired brass in a properly set up gun.

[trotterlg]

Lloyd Smale:  You just don't understand the mechanics of the H&R rifle.  The ejector holds the rear of the case up hard against the top of the chamber, when the rifle fires the case expands first at the bottom of the cartridge in front of the ejector that is holding the case up away from the chamber.  It is normal for them to bulge mostly on one side, just the mechanics of the rifle.  The bulge is twice as much because there is near none on the other side.  This is why you think they are not all the same, you are simply seeing different sides of the brass.  Headspace has near nothing to do with the bluge, it does have to do with how much the case is streached, but that is not what we are seeing here.  A 270 is near the top end of the pressures/case head area that the H&R is chambered for, and I have never seen one that would be able to re-chamber fired brass from a full pressure load without full length re-sizing it.  Larry

[Yak Angler]

The lee loader does not full length size the cases, it neck sizes and bumps the sholder a little.  The bulge you see is normal, this is the point that the base of the cartridge turns solid to hold the primer pocket and extractor  groove.  The brass case expands to seal the chamber, in a Handi the extractor or ejector holds the round up against the top of the chamer, so they usually buldge at the bottom on one side and not evenly all the way around like a bolt gun does.  Brass is also very seldom the maximum size listed in the SAAMI standards, so it must expand more to seal the chamber and makes the bulge bigger.  If this is repeated many times you will get the case to seperate at this point, but this is a normal failure from reloading brass too many times also.  Usually brass will split the neck before it fails at the case head from too many reloadings.  What you see is not a good thing, but it is a normal thing, pick up some range brass next time you are thre and you will see what I am telling you.  Top to bottom from my 20-06 is a once fired case, a once fired case that has been full length resized and a cut away so you can see why it bulges where it does.  Larry

Hi Larry,

What you described is exactly what my brass looks like. I have a full length re-sizer on the way so i should be able to save this brass. Im only looking to get 3-4 reloads from them anyway so hopefully i will get away with that many.

I have measured 12 once fired cases from this gun tonight and all of the measurements are within spec for
shoulder diameter, base diameter and rim diameter the head spacing apears to be correct aswell. The new factory load could not be more perfectly flush with the end of the chamber then it is right now, Headspace appears perfect. I don't think this gun has an defects and what your saying Larry makes perfect sense. all the buldges are only on one side due to the extractor holding it tight on the bottom side of the chamber.

[Yak Angler]

+1 on the book idea, if you can't buy one check your local Library, most have at least 1 on the shelves.

I know my next purchase will be a good reloading manual, hopefully have one within a few weeks. I can't find data online for my two bullet types anyway, so i think the 10 v-max's i have reloaded so far which barely allow the gun to close tight will end up in the trash and counted as a learning experience. 

[bikerbeans]

Adam,

$15 dollar bullet puller and reload them.  Save your powder & bullet.

BB

[Yak Angler]

Hmmm another reloading tool

Its a good thing the wife doesn't have a key yet for our new mailbox 

Otherwise she would be getting suspicous with all these packages showing up for me 

[trotterlg]

Take the dies out of you're press, put the loaded rounds in the case holder, raise them until they stick out the top of the hole in the press.  Now grab them with a pair of vice grips, (just the bullet) and then lower the press, the bullet will be extracted as slick as you please.  Next time you fire your rifle, after firing a round and without opening the action, look across the breach to barrel junction, you will be able to see light through the gap at the top of the barrel.  This is also normal, but you will see how your brass gets streached out, the action of these rifles has a little give in it.  Larry

[R.W.Dale]

if those cases in the picture are from after being shot and before you tried to size them you have a gun problem. Have you tried factory ammo in that gun and is so did they have the ridge on them too. You look like your about a breath away from case head seperation. Usually a ring around the case that severe is do to improper headspacing or an improper cut chamber. If that picture is from after you sized and the ring wasnt there before its probably your lee loader. bottom line is if your cases looked like that after firing factory ammo DO NOT SHOOT THAT GUN!

+1.  You can see the buldge about 1/4" form the base of the once fired factory rounds. Looks like headspace (?) problems.

I'm astounded by how little folks understand about headspace

Headspace will not cause outward case bulging at the case head. What will cause this is an oversize chamber at that point. Headspace on the gun in question can be on the extreme minimum yet if the case head has too much room to expand outward you'll get bulged like the ones pictured.

headspace only effects how the cases stretch longitudinally

[LaOtto222]

Take it easy there krochus I too, am astounded at times, and have said so, maybe in plainer English than you at times. I am trying very hard to be a little more diplomatic in responses than I have in the past. Maybe, people say things just to get a response out people like you and me, some times out of just plain ignorance, not real sure. I am trying to be helpful and try to guide folks into the right direction, if they will go there and if they don't, then that is their loss. It takes patience, some times I just don't have it, but I am working on it

Larry is spot on in his responses. A bulge does not hurt a thing, we are not talking bench rest guns here, these are field guns, that can shoot pretty well some times. Chambers are not cut super tight, and they are going to bulge some. I suspect that in this particular case, there is the bulge, but also some case stretching too. I would be curious if the cases would chamber OK before reloading. Fire a factory fresh round or a once fired case in this gun and then drop it back into the chamber and see if it chambers or not. This would tell you if it is case stretch and needs full length sizing or there is some thing going on during the reloading process.

Adam_R - Welcome to the wonderful world of reloading. You are going to find some very good advice here and some not so good. Just keep that in mind as you resource. - Good Luck and Good Shooting

[Yak Angler]

Larry is spot on in his responses. A bulge does not hurt a thing, we are not talking bench rest guns here, these are field guns, that can shoot pretty well some times. Chambers are not cut super tight, and they are going to bulge some. I suspect that in this particular case, there is the bulge, but also some case stretching too. I would be curious if the cases would chamber OK before reloading. Fire a factory fresh round or a once fired case in this gun and then drop it back into the chamber and see if it chambers or not. This would tell you if it is case stretch and needs full length sizing or there is some thing going on during the reloading process.



All of the cases in the photo are from factory 1 shot loads. The overall length doesn't appear as whats preventing them from Chambering again its the small buldge that appears to be the culprit. As Tim suggested if i rotate them so the buldge is at the top they will usually allow the gun to close but still very tight. A full length resizing should remedy this , the press and dies should show up at my door next week and then i will have some updates to post after i try a full length resize.

On a side note you experienced with relaoding for a handi or T/C can probably advise me if what i am doing for the overall length makes sense. Everything i have read suggests keeping the bullet as close to the rifling as possible for the best accuracy as a general rule. What i have done to determine my overall length is drop a bullet into the chamber where it obviously gets stopped by the rifling. Then i take my depth gauge and measure from the end of the chamber to the base of the bullet in my case thats 2.230" then add the length of the bullet 1.020" for combined total of 3.250" for safety reasons of trying to prevent excessive pressure i planned on starting my testing with loads of 3.240" for comparison sake the factory remington core-lokt loads measure 3.192"

Does this sound like the correct way to do this?

Thanks again

[necchi]

Take a good lokk at this thread, it's a good read too.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums//index.php/topic,112672.msg1098350243.html
 The only trouble with this method is the bullet can stick in the lands when you pull the case out,,take several measurements and pinch the case by the cut so it holds the bullet really tight.

 Your method seems sound and it comes up with a reasonable measurement this time, I'm not sure it's wise, bullet lengths vary alot even in the same box of bullets,,try it, measure a bunch. And the bullet seats on the ogive (curved part) of the bullet and that varies with different bullet types, adding the full bullet length too your first measurement could get ya in trouble!
 Untill you can come up with a COL gauge, I'd recomend staying very near the factory/sammi recomended COL. Many Handis have a long throat, but it's best to be sure where each bullt seats in the lands