Author Topic: First carriage (Read 3345 times)

grymster · « **on:** April 07, 2010, 06:23:16 AM »

At this time I don't have instructions for building a proper carriage for my .30 caliber Mountain Howitzer, but I want to get it mounted soon, so I can shoot it. I've designed a simple, sort of naval carriage that will have to do until I have time to do better.

For perspective, the barrel is about 1.125" diameter and 6.5" long. The carriage is currently 2.125" tall (without wheels) and 5.5" long. The wheels are 1" diameter and I have all the wood at .375" thick, except for the axles at .5" thick.

I haven't added any of the hardware yet and will probably just roughly copy features I can find in photos. I played with a wedge, but haven't yet settled on how I'll control elevation.

So, comparing this to Double D's latest effort with his SAMCC cannon, it's obvious that ... well, I don't know what I'm doing!

Any suggestions for making that fact a bit less obvious, without much delaying getting to the shooting part?

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2010, 06:58:58 AM »

We are no experts on naval carriages, so we won't be giving you any advice except that the carriage cheeks forward of the trunnions need to be shortened, set-back a bit. The important thing is that you are doing it at all. Most of us just talk and talk and talk, nice to see someone actually getting something done and we all know a plan or drawing comes first! Good for you! If you have time, some in-process pics would be nice.

Mike and Tracy

grymster · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2010, 07:19:44 AM »

Quote

Most of us just talk and talk and talk, nice to see someone actually getting something done

Well, to be fair, I've only spend a little time in SolidWorks, thus far!

I like the suggestion of setting the cheeks back a bit. Probably have to move the front axle back some also, but now's the time.... before cutting wood!

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2010, 08:29:26 AM »

Go to the References and look for the the SAMCC plans post. There is a Naval carriage plan there.

Scale it to fit your gun. If you take the time to learn how to scale from a drawing, you will open your horizons. You will be surprised how simple it is. I would think the would be a pretty simple function for CAD program, isn't it?

I don't have CAD skills. I have even taken a different direction. I just get my multiplier and put everything into a excel spread sheet and use the formula to convert everything.

Tried to upload an excel example, but it's not a proper format. I'll get it some how!

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2010, 09:18:53 AM »

Okay here is the excel spreadsheet I was talking about saved as a word document so the sheet is not active.

To come up with the multiplier, I divided the major diameter of the cannon I am copying by the diameter of the material I am using. In my example the material I am using is 2.5 diameter. In your case the material diameter is the major diameter of you cannon barrel.

When I divided my material diameter into the major diameter of the cannon from it's drawing. That number is my multiplier.

Use the multiplier to to create an excel formula. Here is the formula I used in this example.

=PRODUCT(C7/5.52)

What this formula says is show the product of cell C7 divided by 5.52. 5.52 is of course the multiple for this example

In my example I put the numbers in for the barrel in the first column. In the second column I copy and pasted special the formula and pulled the formula down in the column which did the conversion.

You can do the same thing with the carriage dimensions.

In your drawing you can remove the rear step and move the hind axle forward. You can also shorten the front of the carriage ahead of the trunnion. The flat front of the trunnion should be shorter than the flat rear of the trunnion.

The cheeks should also taper. Distance between the front of the cheeks should be slightly less than the distance at the rear. Wider at the back narrower at the front

I can't recommend Damion Siekonic's great book "Building 18th Century Naval Artillery" enough. He also describes a method using projection to scale carriages. It's a great book.

Rickk · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2010, 12:21:39 PM »

Make the rear axle loose and have it pivot in the center... a "floating axle". If you don't do that it will be darn near impossible to have all four wheels sit flat unless both the carriage and also the surface that it sits on are either perfectly flat or identically screwed up. My "avatar" cannon has a floating rear axle, as does the 1" bore "model" that it is based on. The model didn't sit flat untll I modified the axle channel a bit with a round file. After doing that and it worked, the bigger one was built that way purposely. There is a steel truss structure running underneath the rear that supports a pivot in the center of the axle.

Don't try this in the front, only in the rear.

Zulu · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2010, 12:32:08 PM »

I have never had a problem with all 4 wheels sitting flat. Just make sure all hardware is loose, place it on a table, and tighten everything up. If the wheels all don't touch the table when the hardware is loose there is a different problem in the construction.
I have really made quite a few carriages, large and small.
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2010, 01:38:31 PM »

I agree with Zulu on this one. Loosen all the bolts and slowly tighten them up all until you find the one pulling every thing out of whack.

On the SAMCC gun, the transom bolts are the culprit. They have enough draw to twist the carriage even with all the other bolts tight.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2010, 02:19:04 PM »

Grymster,
Your side elevation drawing looks pretty good to me. I don't think you need to drastically shorten the cheeks at the front of the carriage, it would in my opinion be more correct to say that you should move the barrel up towards the front of the carriage. The trunnions of the barrel should rest in holes cut into the tops of the cheeks at a distance that is slightly behind the center of the truck/wheel, so the weight of the gun is supported by the axle. The cheeks only need to extend past the edges of the front wheels a slight distance, and you can start the step down from the top of the cheek further up toward the front of the carriage thus shortening the length of the carriage from the rear.

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2010, 02:39:15 PM »

Quote from: Boom J on April 07, 2010, 02:19:04 PM

Grymster,
Your side elevation drawing looks pretty good to me. I don't think you need to drastically shorten the cheeks at the front of the carriage, it would in my opinion be more correct to say that you should move the barrel up towards the front of the carriage. The trunnions of the barrel should rest in holes cut into the tops of the cheeks at a distance that is slightly behind the center of the truck/wheel, so the weight of the gun is supported by the axle. The cheeks only need to extend past the edges of the front wheels a slight distance, and you can start the step down from the top of the cheek further up toward the front of the carriage thus shortening the length of the carriage from the rear.

John, is absolutely dead on! Move the trunnion position forward, just to the rear of the vertical center line of the front axle. The rear top flat should be longer than the front top flat.

HMS Victory

U.S.Constitution

MikeR C · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2010, 08:17:47 PM »

Here is another example of a naval truck carriage. Except for the rachet thing it is loosly based on Mullers drawings circa (1780). the side pieces (brackets) are one bore diameter thick. This carriage was made for a barrel with a 1/2" bore.

The elevation is by this "wedge" (quoin) which has teeth on the bottom to keep it from being spit out by the weight of the barrel.

I realize it will be difficult without access to machine tools, but, solid steel axles tame recoil and once they are darkened they don't stickout that bad. Both the carriage above and below have steel axels. They started out as key stock which is very easy to work.

Hope this gives you more ideas,
MikeR C

grymster · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2010, 02:37:12 AM »

Thanks for all the help on scaling and basic design!

So, I think I'll:

* shorten the carriage a bit
* move the trunnions forward
* make it wider at the back and narrower at the front
* make the rear wheels a little smaller than the front wheels

grymster · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2010, 11:58:28 AM »

I started the re-design in SolidWorks and wish I were a little bit more consistent on how I mate the parts. Anyway, off to New Mexico for a few days, so I'll get back to this later next week.

You folks behave yurselves now!

grymster · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2010, 07:26:44 AM »

One more time before I cut some wood. I know there's a lot about this thing that follows no historical pattern, but I really want to get it moving forward, so I can take it with me to shoot at our annual ManCamp trip.

Since the last post I've:

shortened the overall length
moved the trunnions forward
moved the wheels closer to the ends
widened the back
made the front wheels larger than the rear

Is there anything that would help without my spending a bunch more time redesigning?

I guess white oak would be the way to go, but I think it will end up painted. Any other decent choices for wood?

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2010, 07:49:24 AM »

Hey that looks a whole bunch better. White oak, it was painted. Pine or fir would probably be just fine for this small gun.

White oak was used for its strength and weight, not its figure which is much ado about nothing. Besides you are making a cannon carriage not a bookcase or a desk.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2010, 08:58:16 AM »

Grymster,
Your latest drawings are in my opinion right on target, you're good to go.

As per Double D's advice to cover the the white oak with successive coats of paint, please don't be overly influenced by the fact that he happens to be a moderator, many of us here think that white oak (both plain and quarter sawn) displays beautifully in its nude state.

Grymster, this is an inside joke that I'll let you in on: Double D has what might be described as a, well, let us say, a strong desire to see all wooden artillery carriages on the face of the earth covered with at least one layer of paint, while there are those among us that think that in many instances it is preferable to let the natural beauty of the wood shine through a clear coat finish.

grymster · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:06:59 AM »

Double D's a moderator? huh!

As for paint, we'll see what kind of wood I come up with.

dan610324 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:17:43 AM »

you could use almost any wood to that size naval carriage
but first you got to decide if it should be painted or not
the originals was painted , but if you use a beautiful wood it would be a shame to paint it

DD:s talk about paint is only because he is like me , tooooo lazy to sand and polish

of course a harder and more dense wood is better ,
but you dont need to start searching for ebony just because of that

your design is very beautiful and time correct for a mid 1700 to mid 1800 cannon

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #18 on:** April 20, 2010, 12:10:09 PM »

Quote from: Boom J on April 20, 2010, 08:58:16 AM

...Double D has what might be described as a, well, let us say, a strong desire to see all wooden artillery carriages on the face of the earth covered with at least one layer of paint, while there are those among us that think that in many instances it is preferable to let the natural beauty of the wood shine through a clear coat finish.

Alas, the reason I shall never receive a kewpie...

What can I say...I like wood. I can't just cover it up with paint. I considered it...but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** April 20, 2010, 01:41:08 PM »

Quote from: gulfcoastblackpowder on April 20, 2010, 12:10:09 PM

Quote from: Boom J on April 20, 2010, 08:58:16 AM
...Double D has what might be described as a, well, let us say, a strong desire to see all wooden artillery carriages on the face of the earth covered with at least one layer of paint, while there are those among us that think that in many instances it is preferable to let the natural beauty of the wood shine through a clear coat finish.
Alas, the reason I shall never receive a kewpie...

What can I say...I like wood. I can't just cover it up with paint. I considered it...but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Lots of bare wood carriages have been Kewpied, despite this glaring lack of attention to detail. Kewpie is awarded to a picture of a gun being introduced for the first time. Both the picture and the gun must appeal to me. You have posted pictures of your gun. but never introduced it, So now you have to build a new gun or rebuild your old one to be considered.

I have only ever given one retroactive Kewpie. I doubt the person even know he got it. The One given to Rocklock's project is the first I have given for a project and not a picture of a gun. But given the project---well the WOW factor was high on the Richter scale.

Zulu may have more Kewpies than anyone and those are not even really guns...I keep saying it will be very difficult for him to get another and then he comes up with another stunning project.

So don't dispair, build another gun or rebuild your existing gun and introduce it to us...there is only one person who will never get a kewpie!

Zulu · « **Reply #20 on:** April 20, 2010, 02:17:43 PM »

(quote)
Zulu may have more Kewpies than anyone and those are not even really guns...I keep saying it will be very difficult for him to get another and then he comes up with another stunning project.

DD,
I live my life to please you.

Zulu

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #21 on:** April 20, 2010, 05:30:34 PM »

Quote from: Double D on April 20, 2010, 01:41:08 PM

Quote from: gulfcoastblackpowder on April 20, 2010, 12:10:09 PM
Quote from: Boom J on April 20, 2010, 08:58:16 AM
...Double D has what might be described as a, well, let us say, a strong desire to see all wooden artillery carriages on the face of the earth covered with at least one layer of paint, while there are those among us that think that in many instances it is preferable to let the natural beauty of the wood shine through a clear coat finish.
Alas, the reason I shall never receive a kewpie...

What can I say...I like wood. I can't just cover it up with paint. I considered it...but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Lots of bare wood carriages have been Kewpied, despite this glaring lack of attention to detail. Kewpie is awarded to a picture of a gun being introduced for the first time. Both the picture and the gun must appeal to me. You have posted pictures of your gun. but never introduced it, So now you have to build a new gun or rebuild your old one to be considered.

I have only ever given one retroactive Kewpie. I doubt the person even know he got it. The One given to Rocklock's project is the first I have given for a project and not a picture of a gun. But given the project---well the WOW factor was high on the Richter scale.

Zulu may have more Kewpies than anyone and those are not even really guns...I keep saying it will be very difficult for him to get another and then he comes up with another stunning project.

So don't dispair, build another gun or rebuild your existing gun and introduce it to us...there is only one person who will never get a kewpie!

I thought I had introduced it: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,193258.msg1098976613.html#msg1098976613

Not a big deal, though. I don't care about Kewpies (says the person who's never got one). I put a lot of hard work into Barney, and I enjoy it, and that's more than enough reward for me. I don't know when I'll be building another, since I've got more of an urge to build a wheellock, and that wouldn't really go on this forum. I will be doing whatever I need to do to get my Morko shootable once Gary get's it done, but I wouldn't want a Kewpie for anything I do on that, since every bit of recognition belongs to him.

Who's the one who will never receive one?

grymster - the new design looks good! I'm looking forward to seeing it built!

Double D · « **Reply #22 on:** April 20, 2010, 06:14:59 PM »

Okay, I remember that, a Christmas Tree picture---

I'll never get!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #23 on:** April 20, 2010, 07:20:41 PM »

Quote from: Double D on April 20, 2010, 06:14:59 PM

I'll never get!

Hey, I gave you a Special Kewpie for the refurbishment of your Cairo gun; remember!

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** April 20, 2010, 08:19:57 PM »

ohhhh..I'm going to bed, good night!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #25 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:55:14 PM »

Heeeeere's Kewpie; (ya gotta remember him now) and whom amongst us could deny that this guy is just so very special? Man, I can recall it like it happened yesterday, it took me a long time to to search out this furry capped fellow.

Double D · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2010, 03:41:57 AM »

I do remember and it was touching, I was grateful, I was moved....but I never loose sight that I do have the real kewpie...at the next Montana cannon shoot, I am thinking about moving it in it's glass case to the range. I'll have to build a a pavilion to protect it from the sun.

carronader · « **Reply #27 on:** April 21, 2010, 06:01:41 AM »

about 100 yards from the firing point Douglas perfect !

grymster · « **Reply #28 on:** April 21, 2010, 08:12:40 AM »

Well, I went to Home Depot after work yesterday and found some Alder that I like for the cheeks, wheels and stuff, some Poplar for the axles and some non-descript 1/4" hardwood dowel for the spindles. The Alder is in the form of 1/4" thick boards which I'll need to laminate, then plane to 3/8". I don't have a planer, so I'll need to do that work on my router table. Maybe tonight... if I'm not too whipped from the work day.

BTW: It's kinda sad; I work pretty close to MacBeath Hardwood (they have a lot of cool wood), but I really, really hate Berkeley and don't like going there.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** April 21, 2010, 11:07:34 AM »

Quote from: Double D on April 21, 2010, 03:41:57 AM

I do remember and it was touching, I was grateful, I was moved....but I never loose sight that I do have the real kewpie...at the next Montana cannon shoot, I am thinking about moving it in it's glass case to the range. I'll have to build a a pavilion to protect it from the sun.

Douglas,
I'm so relieved to read that you do recall the first and only "Special K" award ever to be bestowed upon a BPMC member for meritorious achievement in the field of refurbishment; you know how psychologically fragile I am.