.22's on big game......

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Sourdough commented on a book about Alaska....It was ALASKA'S WOLF MAN ...I bought it and what a great read..haven't enjoyed a book so much since I got the life story of Liver eating Johnson...But as I read the book, I was highly interested in his comments on rifles...He used the 06 quite a bit for his hunting especially shooting wolves at long range...one must remember at this time 1915-1955 the 06 was thought of as a big gun...most shooters were still looking at the.30-30 as a powerful rifle...anyway along about 1937 Frank bought a model 70 in .220 Swift and scoped it...he had used scopes since WWI...I was interested in his use of the Swift...of course it made a fine wolf caliber....but Frank used it on moose, caribou, and grizzly...he said it did a fine job when broad side shots were taken....he did shoot one grizzly that sounded like it was caught in a trap, but very mobile, 11 times...he couldn't get the broadside shot he needed and the bear was coming for him...so he shot it in the neck, and hopped around until he got enough ammo into it for the kill.  Over the years, I suppose I have shot maybe 60 plus head of big game (deer size) with various .22 cal. rifles...Like Frank, if a goodbroad side shot was made all was well....I noted the bullets he mentioned...they must have all been factory stuff as they were 46 and 48 grain bullets...Thanks Sourdough for mentioning this book...It was excellent....

[pastorp]

That is a good read Wyo Coyote Hunter, I have a copy I picked up somewhere probably at Title Wave Books in anchorage.  best book store in anchorage, and every year when we make the annual pilgrimage to the big city I pick up a few books from them.

Reminds me, were due to go in to anchorage the end of this month and I haven't finished reading all the books I bought last year.   

Regards,

[Spanky]

A 22 for big game?? What are you thinkin'?? Deer are bulletproof these days and anything less than a 300 mag will bounce right off 'em.
Come to think of it... I do seem to recall taking a buck with my 22 Hornet a few years back. Yeah... it's all coming back to me now... it was a well placed shot through the lungs with a 45 gr. bullet at about 75 yds.  I also recall it turned the lungs to jelly and the buck went in a heap. Now some of these guys will tell you that it can't be done but......
The fact is if you take well placed sensible shots a 22 centerfire will do the job.



Spanky

[wreckhog]

Alaskan love their .223's loaded with 55gr FMJs for everything even today. Perfectly legal AFAIK. Minimal meat loss.

[Coyote Hunter]

Hunting antelope, deer, elk bear and moose with a centerfire .22 is illegal in my state (Colorado) but I wouldn't choose a .22 for those species regardless.

[wreckhog]

Alaskans like their .223 FMJ's. Saves meat. Cheap. No FTF. But someone always has to top that.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=43606&page=5

post 91 is the most interesting.

Who needs a centerfire?  

[nomosendero]

I do see the title of the thread, but I think the topic is the book & not another .224 for Big Game opinion thread.

[KP]

All,

Alaskans like their .223 FMJ's. Saves meat. Cheap. No FTF. But someone always has to top that.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=43606&page=5

post 91 is the most interesting.

Who needs a centerfire? 

Stangerinastrangeland is a subsistence hunter from the North Slope of Alaska. He was talking about killing caribou by a single shot to the head on swimming animals (while in a boat). He has always written stories about his families experiences from a truely conservative point. His story in post #91 was more about going grocery shopping than using a 22 LR as a big game rifle in Alaska.

[wreckhog]

Sounds a lot like the writer of the book in the original post.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  When I put this under small bores, I thought his use of the Swift was interesting....It is obvious from his encounter with the grizzly that when conditions were not perfect one gets in trouble quickly when not using enough gun...he was shooting meat with this rifle when out hunting wolves...like the game I took with the .22 conditions were perfect, game was unbeliviable in numbers, time was of NO consideration as seasons were long, and I had many areas of private land to hunt...it should not be taken to support  the use of .22's on game...I thought is WAS   interesting how he used the Swift...but it was primarly a wolf rifle, the game taken was just a need that was filled.....for the most part hunters need to use the best rifle they can...for their time is usually limited, and the pratice they get with rifles is often limited....Frank shot every day from the sounds of things...

[KP]

All,

Kinda off the subject of the 220 Swift, but still talking about books. Have you read the book by Chuck Adams, Life At Full Draw?

His hunting guide used a .243 Win as back-up for bow hunters stalking Polar Bears. Sometimes you gotta wonder what some people are thinking!

[Halwg]

A 357 magnum is too small for deer sized game.

[S.S.]

A 357 magnum is too small for deer sized game.

hopefully you are joking

[nomosendero]

When I put this under small bores, I thought his use of the Swift was interesting....It is obvious from his encounter with the grizzly that when conditions were not perfect one gets in trouble quickly when not using enough gun...he was shooting meat with this rifle when out hunting wolves...like the game I took with the .22 conditions were perfect, game was unbeliviable in numbers, time was of NO consideration as seasons were long, and I had many areas of private land to hunt...it should not be taken to support  the use of .22's on game...I thought is WAS   interesting how he used the Swift...but it was primarly a wolf rifle, the game taken was just a need that was filled.....for the most part hunters need to use the best rifle they can...for their time is usually limited, and the pratice they get with rifles is often limited....Frank shot every day from the sounds of things...

I agree with you & find it interesting as well, just see some trying to take it another direction. I think the book & the Swift stories interesting. I had a very accurate Ruger Swift Varmiter, but that was back when I didn't know I had to have a "bedded" Fiberglas rifle. 

[Spanky]

A 357 magnum is too small for deer sized game.

Tell that to all the deer that have been killed with one.



Spanky

[pastorp]

If you paid the freight on bigbore ammo you would understand why artic hunters like the 223. 

Regards,

[mcwoodduck]

I think this is one of those never ending questions.
Yes it will work.
You also have to remember that back then the 22 projectiles were different too and were built a little toughter. The Jackets were thicker. there were not the Varmint explosive type bullets we have today.  They were built more like the FMJ bullets and deeper penitration could be had.
I was amazed at reading a story about two guys going Polar bear hunting.  the article starts off talking about the new really powerful .300 they were using and I am thinking this is 1950's and they are talking about the 300 Win.  next sentance talks about the new fast handeling Savage lever action and I am confussed till I read 1913 and realize they are talking about the 300 Savage.
Guys used what they had avaible to them.  As with anything a proper hit will work no matter what it is comming out of.  Walley Johnson talks abotu one of his sons friends showing up in South Africa with a 22 Hornet and Wally figured small antelope with it.  Before he could say anything the son's friend had "piled up a Buff" with one broad side shot from that little rifle.  On the flip side of that.
If you have access to a better suited caliber why not use it?  The 30-06 can be loaded with smaller weight bullets that would be better.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  mc I think that is the point...why mess with a small cal. when better are available...Frank used the06 and others for years, but seems to have gotten on the 220 for wolves and used it because he had it...while I have used smaller calibers, I fail to see why some feel they are so sporting...it is like using a handgun on big game...it works, but if there is a slip up, then it is the animal that suffers....something that is not what I want to live with....I know as pastorp said freight is expensive in the artic and hunters like the .223...for years it has b een known the natives shoot polar bear and what not with hornets, 222's and .223's....but they are also known for shooting at animals that they do not recover...I think it was O 'Connor commented on the natives willingness to wang away at an animal with a little gun, but if it got away, there would be more...that isn't something I like to have on my slate.......

[mcwoodduck]

Me either,
I guess it too is how you were brought up and if you live in a place that has big preditors like Polar Bears and wolves that look at you as food rather than the Apex hunter.  You may not care if you wound a bear or wolf that will go off and die later, either due to the wound, infection, or the limitations the wound puts on the animal like not being able to hunt, if one ate a close relitive or friend. 
There was a huge preditory bird in New Zealand when People showed up there that ate the Emu.  It would ambush them at the river banks.
When people showed up the big bird attacked them.  The early people made the big bird extinct.
I tend to pick a rifle for the game being hunted.  I tend to go for larger than needed with a standard to heavy for caliber bullet.   I am often given greif for my suggestion of a 338 Win Mag for larger big game like elk.  I know 30-06 or even 30-30 will kill elk and have seen it done.  I would rather have one of the belted mags as i do not have to over think the bullet drop over long ranges and the 338 has enough poop to bring down a big animal with a chest hit out to 300 or more yards. I also have a limited time to hunt and do not want to stand there with a 30-30 looking at an elk 300 yards off and it bee my only oppertunity, if I lived where I could hunt every day during the seasons, I may want to try a shorter range caliber or set up and even only hunt with a handgun but would be sure to take only a shot that will anchor the animal.

[Spanky]

mcwoodduck,

I agree with the 338 theory but are you saying that a 30-06 might not do the job on an elk at 300 yds.?



Spanky

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  I cannot speak for MC, but I think I know what he is driving at...at 300 yards and 06 will kill and elk, but the 338 has more energy, more dia., more bullet wt., so the damage with the same hit will be greater...if all goes well, there may be little diff. in killing the elk...if things do not go as planned, and fate takes  a hand, the heavier gun will have a better chance of bringing the game to bag...when you hunt long enough and shoot or see enough animals shot, you realize things do not always go as planned...then it is the animal that suffers...you play around with enough calibers and try them on a variety of game under different conditons, one learns that not all shots come off as they are intended. then it is the heavier caliber that pays off, but it will NOT make up for someone who is a bum shot to begin with.....I was just thinking of a friend who many years ago shot a big cow elk, with a .300 Sav. He shot a number of elk with it, and had success...this one went down an bounced back up and was off...he and his son tracked this cow for 2 and a half days...they finally managed to get in another shot and get her down..the first round only caught part of the lung, so she was able to almost escape...while it cannot be said for certain, but it stands to reason, a heavier gun and bullet would have done more damage, and possibly brought her  to bag sooner, or knocked her silly enough another shot could have been made...I have listened to small gun guys brag about their kills, but they seldom want to mention the failures of the little arms.. Again, it is the animal that suffers in these cases...

[mcwoodduck]

mcwoodduck,

I agree with the 338 theory but are you saying that a 30-06 might not do the job on an elk at 300 yds.?



Spanky

Not at all.
I am just saying that at 300 Yards I have a 5.4" bullet drop and do not have to think.  My aim for a center lung shot will not be a little low and may take the heart.
the 180 grain out of my 06 has a larger drop and I then have to start playing where on the elk to aim.  I have a problem when I need to aim above the animal's back.  but that is me and while I am great off the bench and not bad at three gun this is hunting and strange things happen.
I also know that the 338WM is going to smack with well over a ton of energy.
The old rule of a big game hunting rifle of 1,000 Foot pounds of energy or more for Deer and 2,000 for elk has been modified to 1,000 for deer sized game and 1,500 foot pounds at the animal.  So a 30-30 is not a problem it generates well over 1,500 Foot pounds but drops be low 1,000 at about 200yards depending on bullet design making it a 200 yard or less deer gun (I know others will disagree but this is for the common hunter not you, that can hit a fly at 300 yards) assuming a center chest / lung hit.  The bullet has enough energy to open and cause massive damage to kill the animal quickly.  heck the 223 has 1200 Foot pounds at the muzzle and with a proper bullet I would not think to stick a deer with one.
As I mentioned before the 22 hornet with a 45 grain bullet generates about 750 foot pounds and that bullet / round combo killed a Cape Buffalo where modern schools of thought call for at least 2 tons of energy at the muzzle.  And that kid did it with what some would call marginal for deer.  At the same time many a afrcan hunter has had cape buffalo suck up a dozen 375 or larger bullets and not go down.  Who knows but I will take the larger bullet and heavier bullet every time.
I will not get into the handgun or Old black powder rounds like the 45-70 that while way under the modern school in power will still do the job as it kills similar to how a pistol bullet works.  i would just hate to try and figure out the hold with out a ladder sight like on my old trapdoor Cadet.

[super mario]

Here in Texas i use my NEF .22 hornet about 75% of the time, my bow 20% of the time and my deer rifle 5% of the time.
Killed a lot of big deer and hogs with the hornet.  I shot one buck that tipped the scales a tad over 200lbs. One shot to the neck and he never twitched. I think I am at 24 big game kills with hornet.
Never tracked a single one.

[rickt300]

I went thru a Hornet phase years ago using an old H&R. I liked it a lot but the brass is a little thin and doesn't last as long as I would have liked. Oddly it seemed to penetrate better than some of the faster .224 rounds.

[wreckhog]

Here in Texas i use my NEF .22 hornet about 75% of the time, my bow 20% of the time and my deer rifle 5% of the time.
Killed a lot of big deer and hogs with the hornet.  I shot one buck that tipped the scales a tad over 200lbs. One shot to the neck and he never twitched. I think I am at 24 big game kills with hornet.
Never tracked a single one.

What bullet/load for deer with a Hornet? What range?

[mcwoodduck]

Here in Texas i use my NEF .22 hornet about 75% of the time, my bow 20% of the time and my deer rifle 5% of the time.
Killed a lot of big deer and hogs with the hornet.  I shot one buck that tipped the scales a tad over 200lbs. One shot to the neck and he never twitched. I think I am at 24 big game kills with hornet.
Never tracked a single one.

No doubt that the 22 Hornet will kill and I have seen it make great kills with neck and center chest hits.  the little bullet comes apart and pulps the lungs. But you can not reccomend a 22 Hornet for everyone to use on Big game.  Hunting with a 224 center fire is like shooting with a 410 shotgun.
It is a professionals gun and should be used where you can pick your shots and like archery are close.

[wreckhog]

Was in the fun shop today. Was talking about bow hunting. Said that I might as well use a Hornet at that range. Turns out the Hornet was his #1 deer gun up to 100 yards.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Wreckhog, I have hunted Tx. many times...and the style of hunting there is suitable for small calibers..you have long seasons, many animals, mostly or entirely leased land, and food plots or bait is legal...all of that adds up to close shots at animals that are not disturbed, and the knowledge that tomorrow, next week, or next mth. will bring more chances...small guns can work in those situations...When hunting deer in the northeast or even much of the mt. west, you would go home empty or with a cripple on you mind if one tried small calibers very often...ones hunting situation is very, important when considering the weapon used...I do have a friend who shot a big doe on permit with a hornet where the head and neck join..he knocked her flat, but  when he looked down to start moving toward her, she was gone in a flash..the range was only 35 yards and he was shooting off a rest..I have only used my Hornet on one deer..It was successful....

[super mario]

some more from the Hornet

[james]

I see nothing wrong with a .22 Hornet for hogs.  On hog killing day, when I was a boy, I used a .22 short rimfire to put them down.   I will never know if it killed them or stunned them because my dad or uncle always stuck them immediately.  There is a spot between and a little above the eyes where the skull is thinner than anywhere else.  They wouldn't let me use long rifle ammo because they said it might go thru the skull and cause blood-shot meat.  I was thrilled when they let me do the shooting.