Is it time to get rid of Medicare?

[powderman]

I figure Heaven is filled with kittens

HEH. I actually discussed that with a pastor several years ago and he assured me there are NO animals in Heaven because they have no soul. Disappointing, I was hoping to see my old dogs again. POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

wreckhog where did i say i feared death ?

[powderman]

wreckhog where did i say i feared death ?

You didn't. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

Ask some old sob that is 74 and you will get a different answer. I paid in to social security and medicare for a good number of years. The government spent every last dollar of it and every dollar you boys are paying into it now. The social security trust fund that they talk about has no money in it. It holds worthless government obligations. It is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created. The next biggest ponzi scheme is this new health care "plan" created by Obama.
Ya, get rid of medicare and social security. Ask your self if you are able, at your current age, to be self suffiecient by age 65, with out any of these programs. Now ask your self if you would be better off if the government didn't take so much of your hard earned money. Start saving folks.


    The Hermit

One thought is that by trying to save everyone, you lose. Traditionally, old people walk into the sea and die to free up limited resources for the younger folks. Free up the resources going to the seniors, and we will have more for the younger folks, ie trade the present for the future. It is a tough call, but I think that we should try it for a decade or so and see how it works out.

      WRECKHOG;
   Walking into the sea is voluntary, one can do it at any age, so if you truly think it would be nationaly beneficial..help yourself. Personally, I would never do such a thing to help Obama succeed.

   If you really believe Heaven is filled with kittens and sunshine, you ought to fear death. The sun is not the source of light in Heaven. ....Don't tell him guys, let him read and find out for himself!

  I know that sometimes young people who are severely handicapped or injured in an accident need medicare, but we know the vast bulk of medicaid users are freeloaders. Still, you seem to think medicaid is more noble than medicare..Are you or some of yours on medicaid ?

[mcwoodduck]

Ask some old sob that is 74 and you will get a different answer. I paid in to social security and medicare for a good number of years. The government spent every last dollar of it and every dollar you boys are paying into it now. The social security trust fund that they talk about has no money in it. It holds worthless government obligations. It is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created. The next biggest ponzi scheme is this new health care "plan" created by Obama.
Ya, get rid of medicare and social security. Ask your self if you are able, at your current age, to be self suffiecient by age 65, with out any of these programs. Now ask your self if you would be better off if the government didn't take so much of your hard earned money. Start saving folks.


    The Hermit

Again I said we need to honor our comitments to the people that were douped by this ponzy scheeme that makes Burnie Madoff look like a chain snatcher.
And we need to wheen the current working population off of this stupid idea. 
I think we should also look at congress and tie their retirement to Social Security and if they get a cost of living increase then so should the people on it.
So goes that if they make cuts to the benefits theirs should be twice as deep.

[SHOOTALL]

I respect the idea of weening America off the idea of Govt. support but we would have to re-educate the masses on the idea of taking care of ones self and family. I think going cold turkey would spark rebellion . So any ideas ? Do we all get prorated on what we have put in ?
 I would expect the insurance companies would pick up business and churches would see more traffic on sunday ,

[powderman]

IG. I believe you meant SON light??? POWDERMAN. 

[mcwoodduck]

I respect the idea of weening America off the idea of Govt. support but we would have to re-educate the masses on the idea of taking care of ones self and family. I think going cold turkey would spark rebellion . So any ideas ? Do we all get prorated on what we have put in ?
 I would expect the insurance companies would pick up business and churches would see more traffic on sunday ,

What I would like to see is a staged withdrawl and option out.
You would still have the same amount of $ removed from your pay check.
If you opt to stay with the program you stay with the program.
If you are of a certain age let's say 50 or older you have  a 1/3 option.  You can send 1/3 of your total contributions to a private account but you will get 2/3 benefits at 65.  If you are in the top bracket and will not see any return on your Med care you can just opt out and give up 1/3 of contributions to the government and be done.
If you are under 50.   You will be able to sent 2/3 of pay to the private accounts and will get 1/4 benefits
if you are under 35.  You will have 3/4 of your contributions to invest in a private account.  and the last 1/4 would be a safety net for unseen problems or people that fall between the cracks or out live thier $.
I would like to see a similar withdrawl for Social Security.

[SHOOTALL]

That sounds good but in reality those who work would opt out while the free loaders would stay in . To end a wealfare state we would need to go cold turkey across the board .

[teamnelson]

If you don't do anything it is going to fail. And that is the morally responsible direction as it was based on the flawed idea that it is the role of government to provide welfare. But it won't be allowed to fail because too many voters depend on it and they still believe that idea. Phasing briefs well, but won't survive first contact with the constituency. Its like saying we're going to phase french fries out of school cafeterias expecting kids to get excited about brussel sprouts.

Its a collateral issue though, like HC, like Education, like Energy, farming, fuel ... without a fundamental change in ideology, all reforms to those sectors will eventually wind up back, probably worse, with further liberties eroded.

If you believe in a small government, then you have to also believe that Americans will provide for their own futures, and will have a grown up attitude about it. Personally, I don't think retirement is scriptural; down shifting sure, but "stop working" is the opposite of Genesis 3:17. I'm guessing the money blown on a 40' RV when you're 65 could cover a lot of meds when you're 85. I grew up on the east side of Phoenix watching the snow birds spend money like college kids on spring break, with the same disregard for the long term, and on the same things ...

[mcwoodduck]

That sounds good but in reality those who work would opt out while the free loaders would stay in . To end a wealfare state we would need to go cold turkey across the board .

the idea is to end it by the time the last people that contributed to it Die.  No contributions - no pay out.
And for the freeloaders that is a simple answer.  Figure out what it would take for them to live in a different country, issue them that amount, let's say 100,000.00 and send them to Cuba, China, or France with out a passport.

[bearmgc]

Death is unavoidable but life can be prolonged with proper care . Why do I think of Hitler and such when i read BS like this ?

  Its not the older members who are selfish by saying they paid into medicare and expect it to be there for them, but the younger ones that are getting more callous as the economy shrinks. Yeah right, walk into the sea and let the younger ones have more. Hello, that is one of the tenets of socialism.

[teamnelson]

If you make it an ageist issue, it will be. If you feel you have a right to stop contributing to society when you retire, but have society take care of you, then society gets to pick the level of your care. You better pray you raised your children well ... I work with the best of the 20s & 30s, and I'd advise you have a plan B. I know I do, and its not to retire.

I've paid alot of $ into alot of things that if I demand they be there for me will enslave my grandchildren and their grandchildren after them. Is it right I demand my retirement be there for me, if in order for it be there would require the nationalization of the retirement system? Is it right I demand Medicare or SS be there if in order for it to be there would require a national sales tax?

Seriously, recognize that callous and selfish is relative, and that what we're talking about here is not a right, but an expectation of a return on investment which most likely will not be met.

[mcwoodduck]

This was clearly a pyrimid scheeme where the first in are treated the best and the second to last group that finally realize it it a problem are wanting thier money back.  If this was done in the private sector the same Senators that praise the Medicare system would be calling for hearings and trying to get the customers money back and asking "when did you know it was not sustainable?"
The other problem we have is that the lock box was moved into the general fund and was stolen.  heck the smartes President in the world according to the Media, Bill Clinton, spent the social security and medicare money not knowing it was part of the general fund and then had to go back and redo his budget and it was his party that moved it.
As any business would have to do we either need to honor the early comitments or fold the whole system and yell ath the country is bankrupt and start everything all over again.
What I would like to see is the Government getting out of more and more not the other way around.  Forced savings I think is a good thing but we really need to look at the % the government is taking and set up a priority system for paying.  Personally I think the Congress should be last.  If they are incharge of the budget and spend all the $ then they should not get paid or have their retirement / medical funded.  We can clearly see that when government gets involved in these things it costs far more and less is offered.
We need to get free enterprise involved to save the old people with out destroying the young.  they too want to have a house, raise kids, and retire some day.  When I turned 30 my grandfather and father were giving me crap about not owning a house and other things saying when they were 30...
I argued with all things being equal I was screwed!  My taxes were twice what my fathers were and we started to talk about % of salary compared to houses, taxes, and cars.  the same house that was 3X dad's salary was now 8X mine and the comparable car to dad's Buick station wagon and was 25% of his annual salary, was a suburban that was 95% of my salary.  With $7,000 of gas guzzler taxes in it.
We are now way over taxed.  Dad paid about 15% total while I am hit with about 45% total.  We need to redesign the system and make it sustainable.  5% flat tax over 30K. and then the options for social security and medicare and the phasing of them out.  Also with a smaller tax rate the economy will expand and we nned to make government live with in it means.
we should also sell off some of the gold reserves and buy back debt and eliminate the EPA regulations and make it legislation.  the bearocrats with the silly rules are killing industry.  I wish i could be made Ruler of the USA for three years.  Year one to make changes back to our founding principles, year two to fix any thing I screwed up in making changes, and year three to ensure it all works well and leave. 

[Mikey]

Powderman:  all dogs go to heaven, period.

wreckhog - it ain't medicare, it is medicaid and other programs that are the biggest expenditures under the social security act.  FDR created social security as a small assistance program for the elderly that was to be paid for by a tax that would never to exceed something like 1% of a person's income.  The senate has since voted in laws and programs that have increased that tax so much that most salaried employees never see a end to their annual social security 'contributions'.  Only once did I get a paycheck that did not have a social security deduction and that was a long, long time ago.

The social security act now contains over 25 entitlement programs.  The biggest expenditures come from Title 4 - Aid to Dependent Children, Title 20 - Maternal and Child Health, Title 19 - Medicaid, Title 10 - The Hill Burton Act, and Title 18 - Medicare, in that order I believe.  What began life as a small assistance program for the elderly is now the biggest draw on your paycheck, for which you can thank the senate.

The biggest ponzi obama put over is the funding of a new healthcare program with yet another tax.  All he and other politicians had to do was separate out the healthcare entitlement programs from social security  and fund them separately - but that was way too easy and would never have merited any new tax or tax increase, and worst of all is that it would create a separate healthcare funding budget subject to much more scrutiny than it is now under social security.

I suppose that if we want to throw mama from the train, or make sure we turn the porch light off so grandpa forgets where he lives, or let grandma go outside all by herself in the middle of a snowstorm and invite a whole bunch of old(er) people out for a midnight ocean swim we can try but I don't think it is the way to go.   

[powderman]

  Its not the older members who are selfish by saying they paid into medicare and expect it to be there for them, but the younger ones that are getting more callous as the economy shrinks. Yeah right, walk into the sea and let the younger ones have more. Hello, that is one of the tenets of socialism.

BEARMCG. YEP. I paid into these govt programs for 45 years. POWDERMAN. 

[Squib]

my fear is that nationalized medicine will be like VA medical care...

[The Hermit]

You guys are all on the right tract. The average person can't earn enough, raise a family, and retire in comfort. All these programs have a cost which ultimately must be paid. It will be paid with inflation, devaluing the dollar along the way. Medicare and social security was mandated by congress. I did'nt have a say in it and money was taken out of my wallet to pay for it. The money was wasted, by congress.
Healthcare will be the same way. Did the government ask you if it was ok for mandatory health insurance?
You will pay or be fined. With or without these "plans", I would advise to eliminate debt, live within your means and invest wisely. It can be done. Security is the ability to take care of yourself.
None of my family went to a home. They were taken care of by family. BUT, i cringe when i see able body folks drawing medicaid, especially using the money for drugs. I'll stop now before I start ranting again.
I wish you all the best of health and a happy retirement.
 The Hermit

[Squib]

a lot of people realize that all these people paying in will want money later.... that's where the fines come in.  everyone WILL pay-in but those who drag their feet will be left behind and denied care.  they KNOW lots of people will not get insurance due to refusal to comply or inability to pay- and that's how it's supposed to be: they can't collect benefits then.

it's okay to rant hermit (it's therapeutic).

[teamnelson]

The money you paid in has already been spent to support the generations before you. I may as well address my taxes to an elderly or disabled person directly, and save the government the overhead. Its not a savings account where you get back what you put in, it was designed to provide benefits to people who didn't pay in, so at best its a bad investment. Most likely, y'all will get some of yours, and the rest of us will get nothing but the warm fuzzy feeling when we look at how much they take out of our check each month.

If Daddy didn't have to have that retirement bass boat and RV when he stopped working at 55, or hunting lease, or whatever other retirement "gift" ... if he left Momma financially set up with no mortgage, an annuity of some kind, and a good insurance policy on himself, and some really clear estate documents. If they stayed connected with their kids and grandkids, took an active role in their education and upbringing (not just making sure they got to the bus on time). Then Momma would be well taken care of without Uncle Sam. As I approach my retirement here in a few years, you can bet my wife will have everything laid out, well documented and communicated in case I pass on. And I have no doubt my kids will do right by her, regardless. I've watched how bad it can be with my Mom and 3 stepmoms ... not putting my wife through that. Even if it means I don't get that Harley Davidson, or Blazer R93 I always wanted. And none of that is based on my federal retirement, SS, or Medicare. IF its still there when we get there, we'll call it gravy and use it to build a legacy for our grandkids, along with whatever other income I have as I keep working by the sweat of my brow all the days of my life.

The cycle will break, whether you do it intentionally, or do nothing ... its not sustainable. If you break it intentionally then you have some say so in how its fixed. If you let it happen ... vote for whichever politician promises to make sure you'll get yours no matter what ... then you have no say so when it breaks, or how its fixed.

But y'all already know how we're going to make sure there is plenty in the pot. Its called taxes, inflation, nationalization of industry, and loss of liberty. Those who vote to protect their government support no matter the cost are no different than hunters who support the AWB. As long as they got theirs, they don't care about yours.

[bearmgc]

No, its called, those, who saw their president and congress giving away all those bailouts to the banking industry and couldn't stop them, and saw GM bought by the Feds and couldn't stop them, now got the chance to turn on their seniors, denying them what they paid for. Like animals turning on their own, out of frustration. But the freeloaders will still get their medicaid.  Obvious now days, that most families will not care for their elderly, and now sing the old tune, "its my turn now". What the previous generations have worked for and believed in on their moral principles and work ethic, the younger generations are now demanding as entitled. I feel sorry for anyone who actually has any compassion left, because in days to come, it won't be just the seniors being devoured by the greed of their children, but the children of their children. Loss of responsibility and compassion doesn't just go in one direction. But then I guess we can blame that also on the government.

Does anyone think that seniors bought into the housing bubble debacle, getting mortgages on houses they could never afford. Not that generation. What about the stock market and short selling and pyramid schemes? Seniors were fleeced by one of their own if they invested, but likely were believers in their banks and invested conservatively, what money they could invest. It was not the nature of their culture to freeload or buy toys thay could not afford. They worked all their lives, actually worked. Well families now days can't be forced to care for their parents, and  being devoid of any caring connection, should not be forced. Because we know what that combination leads to. But this talk of cold turkey of medicare and social security is telling me something. America is becoming a pit of vipers.

But for the record, most seniors are probably still working today, past their age of retirement. Many are now raising their grandchildren. They still have those values of personal responsibility and work ethic intact.

[powderman]

my fear is that nationalized medicine will be like VA medical care...

I'm glad you mentioned the va, they almost killed my best friend this morning. Tank is diabetic and dializes 3X a week. He went in this morning to have an old port replaced. They gave hims meds that he cannot take and had almost killed him before. It is CLEARLY on his chart and medical history, but they gave it   to him anyway. He's been legally blind from cataracts for almost a year now, they will do surgery on one eye the 27th of this month, if he lives. YES, I'm very upset with the va. POWDERMAN. 

[Cowpox]

Why do we always hear about what a drag on the economy that Social Security and it's medical care causes ?

We all paid a portion of our wages, and our employers matched it, but now we are not supposed to receive the relative pittance this retirement provides.

Just for once, I would like to see figures on what it costs taxpayers for the much higher retirement plans for Congressmen, Senators, Presidents, Government Employees, and Union retirements payed by the Government because Companies went under .

I would think that if the allotments for these plans were used to bolster SS, and everyone retired on what SS pays, the whole system might be more sustainable ?

[Heather]

So what do the people on MC do ? Die ?

Emergency rooms BY LAW CAN NOT turn away a true emergency, so no they won't die of something serious.  They just won't have the comfort of running and getting meds everytime they have an aching back or the sniffles.  They will have to live healthier lives to prolong them.  They will be forced to work harder to afford insurance.  They will have to be RESPONSIBLE for themselves.  Doesn't sound so bad to me.  Natural selection drove this world for many centuries and when men and women were responsible for their own lives and well being it is my opinion that times were better and so were the people who lived in them.

Heather

[teamnelson]

http://www.ehealthlink.com/senior/MedicareFunding.asp Good synopsis on Medicare.

Medicare A comes from individual and employer taxes; "taxes you paid in the past benefit others" In other words, what you paid in when you were working was for those who were beneficiaries at the time you were paying, not for yourself later. Once you become Medicare eligible, your income comes from the taxes other people are paying. By 2012, it is projected 75% of the population will not pay taxes of any kind, and many will in fact rely solely on the government for their income. These will mainly be seniors. So 25% of the population will bear the burden to pay into Medicare A (among other things) so that seniors will have health care. Those 25% will have the highest tax burden in the history of our country.

That's just part of it. Medicare B costs you a monthly premium of $110.50, which is taken out of your already small Social Security check. So what about Social Security? This year SS will pay out $29 Billion more than it brings in, and that number will be higher and higher each year in the future. The SS fund is also short $2.5 Trillion (with a T) in IOUs from the Federal Government. Uncle Sam has borrowed out of this fund for decades, and not paid it back. Where will they get that $? Without it, how will you pay your Medicare B premium? The only source of revenue the government has is taxes. So we increase the tax burden on the 25%, which is already higher than any generation previous.

But your Medicare B premium covers only 1/4 of the total cost to provide coverage to beneficiaries. Where is the other 3/4 coming from? It comes from government revenues, which we already noticed is taxes, which goes back to the 25%, etc.

Perhaps instead of calling the 25% selfish and callous, we should be thankful they're still working and paying taxes so that the rest can keep on paying their own bills. And maybe we should participating in a solution instead of perpetuating the problem.

[bearmgc]

Heather, If you have noticed the cost of medical care and drugs dramatically increasing over the past 10 years, and had you actually worked in a hospital over the past 10 years, you would be acutely aware of what hospitals and Dr's are doing with medicare patients now to cut the costs on their end. Medicare Patients are discharged early inspite of hospital acquired infections, and their meds are changed to meds that medicare will pay for, inspite of the meds not exactly being the best ones for them. They have fewer physical therapy appts, what medicare will allow. ER visits are different now for medicare patients that for insuranced patients. And no, most medicare patients don't run for drugs every time they get the sniffles, because insuranced patients get the priority of appts with Drs who MIGHT take medicare patients. Its still easier to self medicate with Walmart OTC meds. So you see, government "natural selection" is already in effect. Most seniors HAVE been responsible for themselves and their families all their lives. They paid into a system, with the trust that their investment would be honored come the time. So the next time you put money in a bank, and expect it to be there when you want it, and you pay insurance on your house, and expect that company to honor your contract if your house burns down,  don't be surprised and start whining if you get your feelers hurt when they say sorry, this bank is bankrupt, or your house has lost 75% of its value, so.....I'll bet you don't want to care for your aging parents either, nor feel any responsibility for them, by your tone. Maybe you then wouldn't mind paying more in income tax, to offset all those serious freeloaders of your generation, whom you should actually direct your anger at.

[bearmgc]

http://www.ehealthlink.com/senior/MedicareFunding.asp Good synopsis on Medicare.

Medicare A comes from individual and employer taxes; "taxes you paid in the past benefit others" In other words, what you paid in when you were working was for those who were beneficiaries at the time you were paying, not for yourself later. Once you become Medicare eligible, your income comes from the taxes other people are paying. By 2012, it is projected 75% of the population will not pay taxes of any kind, and many will in fact rely solely on the government for their income. These will mainly be seniors. So 25% of the population will bear the burden to pay into Medicare A (among other things) so that seniors will have health care. Those 25% will have the highest tax burden in the history of our country.

That's just part of it. Medicare B costs you a monthly premium of $110.50, which is taken out of your already small Social Security check. So what about Social Security? This year SS will pay out $29 Billion more than it brings in, and that number will be higher and higher each year in the future. The SS fund is also short $2.5 Trillion (with a T) in IOUs from the Federal Government. Uncle Sam has borrowed out of this fund for decades, and not paid it back. Where will they get that $? Without it, how will you pay your Medicare B premium? The only source of revenue the government has is taxes. So we increase the tax burden on the 25%, which is already higher than any generation previous.

But your Medicare B premium covers only 1/4 of the total cost to provide coverage to beneficiaries. Where is the other 3/4 coming from? It comes from government revenues, which we already noticed is taxes, which goes back to the 25%, etc.

Perhaps instead of calling the 25% selfish and callous, we should be thankful they're still working and paying taxes so that the rest can keep on paying their own bills. And maybe we should participating in a solution instead of perpetuating the problem.

Yeah, right. seniors paying into the system had more trust than today's younger bunch. Today's younger bunch, want it and they want it now. They want guarrantees, yet feel no responsibility on their end. How many right now are sitting and waiting for a job to suit their fancy instead of going out and working anything they can? Heck milk unemployment for as long as they can. No solution can come from people who are self serving. Trust that seniors will probably be working past retirement, as well as caring for grandchildren, babysitting them, etc. Many younger folks are living in their parent's homes during this economic crisis, yet feel no compunction to give back. They just expect it.

[Heather]

I'm sorry Bearmgc I should have specified Medicaid...ya know the low income service for freeloaders from my generation.  I am not fortunate enough to have parents to care for in their old age as both died before they were fifty.  I fully believe in taking care of those who can't care for themselves, BUT I believe it should be the choice of INDIVIDUALS NOT GOVERNMENT.  

The elderly of this time are in my opinion the last group of good hard working honest citizens left in this country minus a few middle aged folks hear and there.  In a perfect world there would be no need for Medicaid or Medicare as those who have would help the gave nots as God intended.  The Government has taken over the role of charity providers.  I do not feel it is their place.

 I believe without programs like this hiking up taxes and inflation then people would have a little more in their pocket to give to those in need.  I know I am naive and think too simply, but before our Government decided to care for those who WOULD or could not care for themselves didn't churches and families seem to take care of each other?  Didn't doctors care for their elderly patients in their homes for as little as a hot meal?  It seems to me that the more the Government mandates charity out of its taxpayers the less people are willing to do on their own.

Heather

[skarke]

OK, we've got some really hot tempers going here, so I'll tread lightly.

The bottom line is that, for most States, the reimbursement rates that MCaid pays are larger than those paid by MCare.  I have spent the last several years working in the reimbursement arena, and this is fact.

It is so much so that there are huge areas of the country that it is difficult or impossible to find MCare providers.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Daily-Reports/2010/February/26/Medicare-Cuts-and-Other-Payment-Issues.aspx

While these cuts are being delayed by the gutless, spineless Dumbocrats until after the election, they ARE necessary.  The numbers just aren't adding up.  What will this mean?  Well, first, the only doctors that will take MCare with the new rates probably don't speak very good English.  Second, you'll be stacked into cramped waiting rooms with all the other poor suckers that the doctor wants to see for .2 minutes so that he can stack another bill on to the corrupt process, just so they can pay for their freaking lights.

Does this mean that these docs are corrupt?  Absolutely not!!!  They are just playing the government game.  This is how it is done.

So, in about 6 years, when we are sitting in a waiting room for 5 hours with 50 other people, 40 of whom don't pay taxes, just to get the substandard care that we all want for free, then it'll start sinking in as to what a giant mistake we have all made.


Seasoned citizens, you are dangerous to the new world order in two ways:  First, you cost a lot to care for, and Second, you remember what it was once like in America when men were free.

You are, from Obama's perspective, better off listening to you end of life counselor.  They want you out of here.

There, how's that for sensitivity

[bearmgc]

OK Heather, I now understand. Medicaid has been a sore spot with me too, and now seeing that's what you meant, yes, you are correct on every point. As a hospital RN for most of my 31yrs in nursing, yes, I've seen that medicaid has been abused in every shape and fashion. Pete and repeat in hospital ERs for stupid stuff, non-emergencies.
My sincere apology to you for my remark about caring for your parents.