Author Topic: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?  (Read 994 times)

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Offline GrassLakeRon

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Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« on: April 11, 2010, 04:15:34 PM »
Ok,

Rifle number 1 shoots 400 grains at 2150 fps with hand loads.
Rifle number 2 shoots 400 grains at 2250 fps with factory loads.

Folks argue (very heated i might add) that rifle number 2 whips rifle number ones butt.  Would someone please tell me why.  Does 100 fps really mean all that?  Same diameter bullet......

Thanks


Ron

Offline LeeNJ

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 04:20:51 PM »
Which one hit the target?  ;D

Offline necchi

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 04:27:49 PM »
"Which one hit the target? "

2nd that,,velocity doesn't always = accuracy  ;)
found elsewhere

Offline spikehorn

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 04:33:07 PM »
 My buddy is a hard core 30-06 man and picks on me by telling me my 308 is just brush gun, but depending on the load a 308 is only about 400-700 FPS slower than an 06. My 308 kills deer just as dead as his 06. and I have a confirmed woodchuck kill at 282 yards thats about 150 yards farther than his longest woodchuck kill with his 06. I guess my point in this is don't worry about it.
308 win                 45-70                       12ga         
30-30                    223 stainless steel   20ga TDC
44 mag                  Tracker II 20ga        20ga
45-70 Manlicher     20ga USH                28ga
                                                              410ga

Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 04:34:10 PM »
Ok,

They both hit the target.  Here is another comparison:

Gun 1 : 300 grains at 2580 fps
Gun 2:  300 grains at 2550 fps

Same 2 guns different load.......

Ron

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 04:38:16 PM »
Accuracy and shot placement matters a whole lot more than 100 fps +/- in velocity. I would rather get missed by a high velocity round than get hit by a lower velocity round, and I have been shot at and luckily never hit. I have never been one to fall for "Magnumitius", rather I go for hitting the target where it will do the most good. One well placed shot is better than 10 missed shots, unless your the target!!!....<><....:)   
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline PawPaw

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 04:43:18 PM »
All guns are different, and as you demonstrated, two identical cartridges shot through two different barrels will turn in different numbers.  That's due to minute differences in manufacture.  Even with barrels that are rifled consecutively, the one rifled later will have different wear and tool marks on the cutter, and it will be different from the barrel manufactured earlier.

Of additional interest is the standard deviation that we find between cartridges manufactured in the same batch.  Many of us use Standard Deviation as a measure of accuracy, as it is a measure of consistency.  If I find a batch of ammo with a standard deviation (Sd) of five feet per second, I consider that might be an extremely accurate batch of ammo.  Normally I consider a Sd of 20 fps as the defining point.  Anything under 20 is generally very accurate, anything over 20 is less accurate.

The .308/.30-06 debate has been going on forever.  I consider the two cartridges practically identical at all bullet weights under 180 grains.  The .30-06 generally gets the edge with heavy bullets and the .308 is generally considered more accurate.  It's a toss-up.  Pick one or both, it'll serve you fine.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 04:48:25 PM »
+1 on what MSP Ret said. It really depends on how you quantify better.

As my old D.I. used to say, "600 rounds a minute ain't firepower.........one hit is firepower.

Truth be known, nothing in this hemisphere would survive either one.
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 04:49:49 PM »
Do you want to know the cartridges in question?  See I find that the name of the cartridge leads to some bias along the way......

Ron


Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 04:50:45 PM »
I do want to say the reason many feel the .308 MAY hold an accuracy edge over the great 30-06 is because the .308 in a bolt action is built on a shorter and theoretically stiffer action. In a single shot like a Handi that difference does not apply. Just ask Sourdough if his 30-06 is accurate....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 04:56:11 PM »
They are not 308 and 30-06.......

Comparison one Gun 1 is a 45-70, Gun 2 is a 458 win mag.  Comparison two Gun one is a 45-70, Gun 2 is a 375 H&H mag.......

Now this is where the bias starts...........

The question is why?

Ron


Offline spikehorn

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 05:17:46 PM »
 The only reason I brought up the 06 and 308 is because thats what I have to compare to. Lord knows I'm not trying to restart that debate.
 I just handed down my bolt action 308 to my son this last deer season. I'm sure as has been metioned that there would be velocity diffrences between that bolt gun and my handi 308,and I believe the bolt gun is more accurate than my handi but we both killed deer this year. His was a 65 yard quarting to shot and mine was 167 yard broadside shot.
308 win                 45-70                       12ga         
30-30                    223 stainless steel   20ga TDC
44 mag                  Tracker II 20ga        20ga
45-70 Manlicher     20ga USH                28ga
                                                              410ga

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 08:19:54 PM »
Ok,

Rifle number 1 shoots 400 grains at 2150 fps with hand loads.
Rifle number 2 shoots 400 grains at 2250 fps with factory loads.

Folks argue (very heated i might add) that rifle number 2 whips rifle number ones butt.  Would someone please tell me why.  Does 100 fps really mean all that?  Same diameter bullet......

Thanks


Ron

Uhh..well..different application..different SD..different results on different animals..for starters..

Does 100 fps really matter..It can..100fps could mean a bullet having not enough velocity to expand properly or not..or not enough energy to bust through heavy hide and bone and reach the vitals..if the range is coming into play.

While some may argue a measly 100 fps doesn't matter..if it is your life on the line..ask your self this simple question..." Do you feel lucky ? " "Well do ya..?" ;)

Deer hunting isn't dangerous game hunting..and for DG...for all sakes and purpose.. the heavier faster load matters more on dangerous game than on non dangerous game when discussing things like ammo velocity..In real life..100 fps differences are common place..even with rifles of the same cartridges..some can be faster..others can be slower..

Mac
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2010, 10:10:32 PM »
Rifle number 1 shoots 400 grains at 2150 fps with hand loads.
Rifle number 2 shoots 400 grains at 2250 fps with factory loads.

Comparison one Gun 1 is a 45-70, Gun 2 is a 458 win mag.

Folks argue (very heated i might add) that rifle number 2 whips rifle number ones butt.  Would someone please tell me why.  Does 100 fps really mean all that?  Same diameter bullet......


So you're saying a .45-70 shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2150 ft/sec and a .458 Win Mag shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2250 ft/sec?  The .45-70 has 4105 ft-lbs of muzzle energy and the .458 has 4496 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.  About a 10% increase.  Trajectory should be almost the same.  The .458 has a little advantage but not a lot.  Certainly not enough to fight about unless one likes to fight about things one knows little about.
GG
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Offline PawPaw

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2010, 01:34:18 AM »
They are not 308 and 30-06.......

Sorry about that.  I got confused early on.

Comparison one Gun 1 is a 45-70, Gun 2 is a 458 win mag.  Comparison two Gun one is a 45-70, Gun 2 is a 375 H&H mag.......

While we could argue all day about the various merits of each cartridge, I doubt that the animal being whacked could tell the difference.  The .375 would hold a slight ballistic edge due to a better ballistic coefficient, but none of these are considered long-range cartridges.  At this point it's all academic and boils down to the [erson behind the gun.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2010, 05:10:52 AM »
Rifle number 1 shoots 400 grains at 2150 fps with hand loads.
Rifle number 2 shoots 400 grains at 2250 fps with factory loads.

Comparison one Gun 1 is a 45-70, Gun 2 is a 458 win mag.

Folks argue (very heated i might add) that rifle number 2 whips rifle number ones butt.  Would someone please tell me why.  Does 100 fps really mean all that?  Same diameter bullet......


So you're saying a .45-70 shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2150 ft/sec and a .458 Win Mag shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2250 ft/sec?  The .45-70 has 4105 ft-lbs of muzzle energy and the .458 has 4496 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.  About a 10% increase.  Trajectory should be almost the same.  The .458 has a little advantage but not a lot.  Certainly not enough to fight about unless one likes to fight about things one knows little about.

Unless one is shooting a bullet designed for the 45-70 as opposed to one for the 458 Win Mag on dangerous game.. ;) Velocity vs Trajectory isn't the only thing to discuss when talking about Big Bore rifles..although the range will come into play rather quickly with these big slugs...The bullet itself and what it is being used for also is just as equally important..As a all around gun between the 3 of them(45-70..458 WM..375 H&H )Given the choice(and rifle ;))..the 375 H&H would be my pick..no matter the edge in energy given by the larger caliber..If strictly used for Dangerous Game..I would have to give real consideration to the larger caliber..

Mac
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Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2010, 05:24:31 AM »
Think of it this way, If your shot was 100 yards.......  My longest shot was 100 yards.  I own a 375.  Yes the 45-70 bleeds off energy and such past 100 yards, but what is the difference at 100 yards? 

I can't get around the issue here......  I would think the a A-Frame at 2150 or at 2250 would do well on dangerous game........ Something like Brown Bear.  Folks in Alaska like the 375.  I own one.  But if the 45-70 shoots the same grain size at the same velocity then where is the real difference when your shot is 100 yards.

Know, why do I have this on the Handi site?  Because I want to have a handi as a backup rifle for my wife.  See love the handi idea and shots well.  See is not fast on a bolt, and now one really makes a 375 in auto.  So would a 45-70 with a 400 grain Barnes or Swift A-Frame at 2150 fps or a Woodleigh Weldcore at 300 grains and 2550 fps be a good choice here?

Thanks again guys for your insight


Ron

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2010, 05:50:33 AM »
Think of it this way, If your shot was 100 yards.......  My longest shot was 100 yards.  I own a 375.  Yes the 45-70 bleeds off energy and such past 100 yards, but what is the difference at 100 yards? 

I can't get around the issue here......  I would think the a A-Frame at 2150 or at 2250 would do well on dangerous game........ Something like Brown Bear.  Folks in Alaska like the 375.  I own one.  But if the 45-70 shoots the same grain size at the same velocity then where is the real difference when your shot is 100 yards.

Know, why do I have this on the Handi site?  Because I want to have a handi as a backup rifle for my wife.  See love the handi idea and shots well.  See is not fast on a bolt, and now one really makes a 375 in auto.  So would a 45-70 with a 400 grain Barnes or Swift A-Frame at 2150 fps or a Woodleigh Weldcore at 300 grains and 2550 fps be a good choice here?

Thanks again guys for your insight


Ron


A back up rifle..sure..if you want a spare rifle to have..Myself..I would get a Marlin Guide Gun and have it stoked with Garrett's or Buffalo Bores or similar loadings..if going after something that can eat you..but that is just me..

Good Luck

Mac
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2010, 12:37:31 PM »
Any of what you have mentioned will do the job IF you match the bullet construction and nominal velocity to the game and (most important) put it 'where he lives'. Gut shot with any of them is still gut shot.
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Offline guns-o-fun

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2010, 01:28:33 PM »
If you really want to compare, and do not have reloading software that will do it for you quantitatively go to

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

and find out the difference.  It will give you energy at different ranges, bullet drop, wind drift, optimal game weight and all that good stuff as long as you put in realistic parameters like BC and muzzle velocity.

Offline PawPaw

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Re: Will somebody help me figure this out, Please?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2010, 01:51:47 PM »
On the other hand, if you're interested in long-range gunnery with the .45-70, go read about the Sandy Hook tests.

The .45-70 at 2 miles.