Author Topic: how many rounds to test loads?  (Read 1013 times)

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Offline Hank Zudd

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how many rounds to test loads?
« on: April 11, 2010, 04:47:10 PM »
Gonna roll some batches of .223 for my recently acquired (broken in & scope sighted in) Handi (std contur, 1-12); using all commericial once fired brass, CCI primers & 3 diffrent styles of bullet- 60 gr V-max, 60 gr Sierra HP's & Midsouth 55gr Varmit Nightmares, all with Varget.

Also have some H335 & H322, but wann start at the top with Varget.

Anyway if I run 12 reloads for each bullet type, six rounds for two diffrent charges of powder, would that be enough indication of which is best? I know the Handi's get hot quick, so I'll do some other shooting between strings to allow cooling;
that's why I don't wanna roll 20 for each weight on each bullet; I'm not F-class shooting, just want as good as I can get with what I feel would work on coyotes & piggies locally. (central Tx)

thanks, and any favorite loads for the components indicated are welcome.

Offline PowPow

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 05:31:44 PM »
The ladder method gets me to the best answer for a given component combo with the fewest bullets. This is how i understand it:

Make 10 in ~1% increments to max load; 0.2 grain increases for Varget and 223.
Shoot the 10 bullets at the SAME target, recording the location of each bullet, either using a spotting scope or walking down and marking them.
Later, back at your laboratory, measure the center-to-center distance from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4....
You will see the gaps become smaller as you approach the optimum charge, then it starts to oepn back up.
Plot the gaps vs charge and you will see where the sweet spot is.

Then load 3 each at the sweet spot and .1 grain up and .1 grain down. Shoot those at their own individual targets and see which is best.

19 bullets to get to the optimum charge for that combo.

You could stop there and probably have 1/2" or less recipe, or you could make a bunch of the winner of that round and then play with the OAL.

Stick with one brand of brass per recipe. The only thing that varies is charge wt. Then OAL.
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Offline KansasPaul

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 05:48:02 PM »
This is a great topic - one that I researched over the course of the past few weeks and I stumbled on the "ladder method" after noting it in a forum on another site.  I had been working on developing a .223 load for an AR15 that didn't want to group. I can't tell you how many wasted shots I took, trying all kinds of combos 5 bullets at a time.  I finally settled on one bullet weight, one powder, one primer and in my case 20 rounds.  I numbered each round with a sharpie marker and had a corresponding target that I marked with a pen after each shot down range.  I'll never again load bullets in 5 round groups for load work-up.  The ladder method is the only way to go.

Paul

Offline PowPow

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 06:17:32 PM »
Yeah, I probably spent more on components than I spent on the gun before I read about it.

One other thing:
Using the longest range you can gives the greatest gap between shots, allowing for finer discernment of the best charge wt.
200 yds is better than 100 is better than 50. I only have a 100 yd range, and have had 3 adjacent shots measure 3 mm c-c.
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Offline necchi

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 07:17:38 PM »
I gotta +1 with those guy's.
 Wasted alot of bullets an powder loading 5 shot increments trying to find a good load. Then I found a read about "ladder" test's and it works. This one was a good read;

http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/laddertest.explanation.html#Laddertest

There are plenty of others, Varmet Al's is really good at explaining harmonic balance and what they call "nodes"

 Anyways to answer. No, 12 rounds with 2 charges ain't enough, it's about 35-40 to get it really dialed in sweet.
The first 20 in a ladder, then 12-15 in the node spread to find the best charge, then a few to zero the scope. I have the Handi 1-12 in a bull and I've got Nosler 55 BT doing 2" at 200 with Varget. I've had such good results with Varget in that thing with a few different bullets, I can't see a reason to change. It's my go to powder for my Handi 223 ;D
 I hessitant to share the load because of variables, but they'er comming in generally 1-1.5 grns short of max with a SR mag primer for best accuracy
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 10:16:19 PM »
I am not sure the 60 grain V-Max is going to stabilize for you, it is a really long bullet. I use them to reach the lands, when others will not. Only testing will tell you if it will or not. Varget is a good powder to start with heavier bullets (55 grain and up). Good Luck and Good Shooting
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Offline PawPaw

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 09:29:46 AM »
I gotta +1 with those guy's.
 Wasted alot of bullets an powder loading 5 shot increments trying to find a good load. Then I found a read about "ladder" test's and it works. This one was a good read;

http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/laddertest.explanation.html#Laddertest

There are plenty of others, Varmet Al's is really good at explaining harmonic balance and what they call "nodes"

 Anyways to answer. No, 12 rounds with 2 charges ain't enough, it's about 35-40 to get it really dialed in sweet.
The first 20 in a ladder, then 12-15 in the node spread to find the best charge, then a few to zero the scope. I have the Handi 1-12 in a bull and I've got Nosler 55 BT doing 2" at 200 with Varget. I've had such good results with Varget in that thing with a few different bullets, I can't see a reason to change. It's my go to powder for my Handi 223 ;D
 I hessitant to share the load because of variables, but they'er comming in generally 1-1.5 grns short of max with a SR mag primer for best accuracy

Very interesting article linked above.  First time I've heard of this method, but it makes sense on lots of levels.  I've got a rifle that's giving me fits finding a load for it, and I'll be sure to try the ladder method next.

Offline necchi

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 08:16:55 PM »
 There's some out there that poo-poo the test, and at just 100 it's tuff to see a group or those 3-4 loads that are in a node.
 I use a 1/2 sheet of poster stock from wally that's 14x22" at 200 with a 1" dark dot in the middle. I start with the scope set so that they begin towards the bottom of the target, then watch'm walk up the paper. At 200 yrds you can really see when the gun is getting to what it likes.
 Sometimes .1grn increments, sometimes .2 depending on cal and charge spread. Don't worry about the horizontal placement, that's just the individual charge talking, it's the vertical levels to watch for.
Really helps narrow it down, some times you can see 2 distinct "groups"

 Here's my notes from a target, 120 seirra spitz in the 708 at 200 (target too big too post) and it's just my scribles so they aren't as good as the actual target.
 .2grn increments. You could see the first "node at 4-5-6,,then 13-14-15 came together again. With #20 the primer flattend just a bit. (1st pressure sign) I chose to load 13-14-15 too test in 5 shot groups each, load 13 gave me a 1.15" group at 100, 14 and 15 where bigger.
 I'll now load 41.2grns of RL15 with this bullet and mess a bit jump to see what I get at 200, total of 35 rounds fired to get the load. ;D I like the "ladder test"  ;D
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Online Graybeard

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 04:18:25 AM »
I've never read or heard of this "ladder" think anywhere other than here from a few posters. Dunno who invented it but if it makes ya happen then go for it. Me I'll do things the way I always have.

What the heck is this big concern over how many bullets ya shoot? I kinda thought that was the idea of having the rifles in the first place was to take them out and shoot them. So when did we get to the point where we want to minimize our shooting rather than maximizing it? Whatever cranks yer tractor I reckon.

For most any gun/caliber combination I will pick out two or perhaps three bullets (rarely even more) I think will be satisfactory for the tasks I plan to apply the gun to. This might be punching holes in paper only, picking off tiny varmints at long range, shooting big or small game or whatever else might be on the agenda.

I first up decide on a few bullets I know will give me the exterior ballistics performance I want. I then do a search of the numerous loading manuals I have and decide from them which powders seem to perform the best based on the load manual results. From that I will select one to three powders that seem to provide the best combination of accuracy and velocity. Generally speaking I have no interest in a load for a rifle at least that is gonna give me good accuracy but at a velocity well below the potential of the round nor do I want a combination that gives me super fast velocity with less than stellar accuracy. I want a compromise but one that gives me the best of both.

I long ago gave up starting at the starting loads as I'm not going to accept that level of velocity so don't bother. I will pick a starting point somewhere above that and for me it is most of the time along about the middle of the powder charge weight range based on the study of several data manuals.

I will load in groups of either three or five depending on the application for the rifle/load. If it's a big game hunting load then I use groups of three and if the application is target/varmints then I load groups of five. I will almost always load two such groups as I do not want some minor error of shooting or wind conditions to sway my result.

I will generally load two or three such groups at increasing charge weight but at this stage do not reach max recommended load as I've had to break enough down in the past when I did that so I no longer go to max until I've fired at least two preferably three less than max.

I shoot under as ideal of conditions as possible and put my all into each and every shot to make sure I do not indue error into the equation. I then analyze all the targets for group position in relation to aiming point and group size but also for the placement of bullets within the group. Two touching and one wide regardless of group size if it does it with both sets of that load tells me it's not idea regardless of the actual group size.

With three shots I'm looking for a more or less equalateral triangle and with five shots I'm looking for a group that is more or less round in nature. I'm also looking for as small a group as possible.

Once the prelimiary firing has been done with each of my propective bullets I decide if any of them are worthing of repeating or if I should just move on up a bit higher in charge weight. Most times as least one of them will have given me accepatable accuracy especially if it's a hunting load for big game.

My acceptance criteria on big game is three shots must stay around and perferably under an inch at 100 yards for both sets of loads and then be able to repeat it when I duplicate it and try to verify results. For varmint/target loads my criteria is more stringent. It must put five shots well under an inch EVERY time I shoot it and it must put most under 0.75" every time I shoot with some in the half inch and under size range again all for five shots. For me the load is not worth using on targets and varmints if it is not capable of shooting a half inch and less for five shots on a fairly regular basis nor if darn near all do not stay under three quarters of an inch. If any go over an inch the load just is not consistent enough to use.

Most always I will find such loads with each bullet tested. At that point I have a decision to make regarding which bullet to make my primary load with. For a big game load that will almost always be made on how that bullet is expected to perform when it hits a big game animal. For a varmint/target load it might be determined by what I have the most of or can easily get the most of. Since they've each proven to be adequately accurate and I've yet to find a bullet made for target/varmint shooting that fails upon contact with the intended target that doesn't play into my decision making process on target/varmint ammo.

By the time I'm done with the process I've fired my rifle a bunch of times and have gained a clear understanding what kinda accuracy it will deliver and what stage of fouling the barrel performs best at and I know when that accuracy drops off so I know when it's time to clean the barrel and when it's time to leave it the heck alone.

To do less shooting with the new rifle means I really had no use for it and I should really move it along to someone else and find something that is of more interest to me. I kinda thought the idea was to shoot them at least that's what I get them for but then I guess some folks just think hey are purdy and wanna put them away in a safe somewhere to pull out once a year and look at them and aren't really shooters anyway but just lookers.


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Offline drdougrx

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 05:32:43 AM »
I use .5gr increments in sets of 6.  So, I select the bullet and the powder I'm interested in and then load 6 rounds at the minimum, 6 at min+.5, etc all the way to max.  I shoot each at its own target at 100 yards in three shot strings, moving from target to target as the charge increases.  When I'm done, I've shot 6 of each load at each target and can usually find a sweet spot. 
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Offline necchi

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 06:00:53 AM »
I kinda thought that was the idea of having the rifles in the first place was to take them out and shoot them. So when did we get to the point where we want to minimize our shooting rather than maximizing it? [/qoute]

With all respect dew,

 Well I think it started when componants $$ went sky high. Powder at $25-26, premuim bullets a buck apiece, etc,,,and the shoddy supply the past few years. It's gotten better, but in some places, a guy might have ta drive an hour just to find he can only buy 1 flat of primers because the store is trying to share the shippment with many.
 Yes bulk is cheaper, but us new loaders are still in that experimental stage and many times don't have the experiance or confidence to buy a $130 keg of one powder or a $75 box of 250 of a single bullet or $300 for a 10K shippment of primers. It's simply about the economics. Remember? Young folks starting out, money's tight.
 I've happily gone from buying a single box of factory ammo for $30 for my son to sight in his scope, (Oh boy, we better save 5 for hunting), too "let's shoot 30-40 rounds this weekend because you need work on trigger control"  ;D

Quote
I long ago gave up starting at the starting loads as I'm not going to accept that level of velocity so don't bother. .

 That's good too. And as I learn my guns and develop confidence, I am doing the same. But it go's against every book out there.
 I like the ladder thing, it let's me find a decent load sooner with my limited supply of components. I can then spend shooting time developing MY techniques and skills. After all, most guns shoot better than most people, and spending time shooting is the only way to improve, and I can tweek the load as I go.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 09:43:40 AM »
I use my 543 method when i get a new gun. I first figure what im going to do with it to narrow down a velocity range and bullet weight and design then i buy AT LEAST 5 differnt bullet 4 differnt powders and 3 differnt primers and then start mixing them up. Usually somewhere in the middle of it i find something good. You will do yourself a big disservice if you dont try differnt primers. They will effect accuaracy at least as much as the powder and bullet will. When i get a new gun i open a new section in my load records and start. All of this shooting doesnt need to be done right away. Get started and if you find a load that is good enough to get by on use the gun with it and play more in the future. I close a chapter on a gun when ive gone through all of the variations. If i dont find something by then im happy with i get rid of the gun. Like greaybeard said its all shooting so its all enjoyable.
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Offline 41 mag

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 02:56:03 PM »
To be quite honest, I do not generalize the number of rounds it takes to find the ideal load. Mainly due to as mentioned, when I purchase a rifle or handgun, it is done so because I wanted to shoot something different or wanted a specific caliber.

I have also found through the years, that most times life in general has a way of getting in the way of me sitting out on the range and working up a load the way I really like too. If I were retired or single, or didn't have a kid and grandkids, well it might be a bit different, but then I would still be riding the tractor, fixing fences, painting houses and such so either way it all boils down to time for me.

I completely understand about low funds, and apprehensions on purchasing bulk components, however in the time your using to conserve your funds, study the manuals, study the bullets, the powders, and categorize them into a small spreadsheet type files for your rifles. List the most often used across the board, which seem to keep with the bullet weights you intended to use and what OAL they used. Then look closely at the velocities produced by these powders, and what barrel lengths they were tested with. Granted this doesn't always mean a thing when it comes to your rifle but it does start to show a pattern. While your doing this also pay attention to powders that might be a good cross over to something else your loading. This also saves time and money in the long run.

Once you have your list narrowed down to the better of say three powders, and possibly two to three bullet weights, then your ready to get on with the loading. It's almost identical to what GB was speaking about. Ok so now you have a couple or three powders in 1# jugs, which possibly work for a couple of your rifles. They don't all have to but if two do then your that much more ahead. If more do then your really working things. IF you want to conserve components use the method above. Either way your off to the races, so might as well get a jump start. Since you have been studying the books, you should know the charge weight ranges for each powder you picked out. Figuring as GB does, works for me just as well as it does for him, but for you keep it how you like it and feel comfortable with. Load up your rounds and head to the range and test as noted above. You should hit a couple of good loads pretty quick.

Myself, I work it from a different angle. I hunt with my rifle, but I also demand the best accuracy from them I can possibly squeak out within the abilities of the combination. Part of this combo is me, and is usually the determining factor in the end. I do a similar accounting of powders which might give me the best overall loads both in velocity and accuracy.

I also look at the velocities and generally decide upon something based upon what the load is going to be used for and with what bullet. I know that a 100gr Partition from my .243 will do wonders at the top end of the spectrum, however the 95gr BT with the same load will blow a massive cavity out of a deer. So I would rather shoot the 100gr fast and drop the 95 down to around 2800fps where it isn't quite as destructive. By the same token, for the .270 I run the 130's at top end and keep the 150's down around 2750 simply due to they are used in the wood and the 130's are for wide open areas where shots might be a bit further.

So after deciding on the destination of the load. I fill up my Uniflow and start weighing charges of the powders I have chosen then recording the stem settings as min and max next to the powder being weighed. This lets me quickly set the measure up for several powders while at the range and not have to have my scale there to weigh each and every charge. I toss in between 20 and 50 cases, and enough bullets and primers to test for the whole day.

I set up my OAL based upon the mag lengths to start with, and work up from there. I don't worry about how close to the lands I am or even hitting them as most of my rifles aren't even close with a mag length case anyway. I start dumping powder and seating bullets. I run them across the chrono and check velocities on my way up. Generally I will shoot two to to three loads for each weight. This results in a target somewhat like this,


and my load set up looks like this,


While this may or may not be a totally acceptable practice among some shooters, it has worked wonders for me over the past 20 or so years. Saves me time and effort running to and from the range to load or pull rounds just to go back and try them again. This .243 was known to shoot a 100gr bullet very well. It put this 5 shot group together with the cheapest box of factory ammo I could find for it, the first time I shot a group with it. It has done it since several more times so I know it will shoot.


The loads I worked up were with the then new Hybrid-100V from Hodgdon. The barreled action had also been placed into a replacement stock just two days before with no fitting ir fussing about it. Just simply dropped in and snugged down. The results were found that it does need a bit of barrel channel work as is noted with the two bottom left groups and the two risen flyers in each. These were both the last two shots of each group fired in succession. If I let it cool they will all be together. There was also a seating depth change of .015 deeper which also closed up the group from the top row, L to R groups 3,4.

Have I tried any other powder with this rifle, nope and probably won't. It simply shoots just like I want it to and hits the 3100fps with the 100gr Nosler Solid Base just the way I wanted it to do. So with a few bullets and one powder, I found something we both liked.

Now will all rifles do this as easily, well it seems to be getting easier as I get older to get where I want to be quicker. I generally use this method on them all nowadays and it seems to come in pretty quickly. Sometimes I even have to change powders once or twice, but once you get the hang of it and know what your looking for, you can tell pretty quick if the load is going to get up where it needs to be, and either accept that area or drop the powder and start with another just that quick. I can vary the powder in small increments at the rsnge or simply do the rough in, and bring everything home and load up a box of tightly tweaked loads, and go back at a later time. However when I leave, I still have loads which are plenty good for any hunting I might do with the particular rifle I am using at the time.

Offline 41 mag

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 03:01:43 PM »
I forgot to add, once you get the hang of working up loads, and have a couple of rifles which can share components in one for or fashion, then you need to buy bulk in primers, powders, and bullets when ever you can. This will minimize subtle changes in LOTS from one component to the next which will have you scratching your head on why this load shot so well last year but isn't worth a crap this year.

It is also nice when you have a good supply of a great bullet, and the manufacturer decides to drop it from their line. It is happening more and more over the past years, with bullets getting more and more premium the standard cup and cores, which has and still kill just as clean and quick are being dropped due to better paying premiums.

Good luck with your loads, I hope you have found at least something here to hep you along.

LAter,
Mike / TX

Offline burntmuch

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 03:20:37 PM »
Some great reading guys!!. Especially for a fairly new reloader, like myself. Just a couple weeks ago I learned about what different primers will do for a load. Ive got a rem 700 vls that wouldnt shoot my reloads under an inch CTC. I tried different powders & bullets. It would shoot factory corlocts into 1/2 inch group , Lake city M118lrs into smaller groups. But my reloads sucked. All I could find was remington primers. Finally got some CCIs. Groups shrank big time. Under or at .7 CTC. So Im on myt way with that one.  I usually load 3 or 4 different charges. 6 rounds per charge. But My 100 yard range is behind the house. If I had to drive to the range I load up alot more combos at a time.
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Offline mjbgalt

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 03:25:44 PM »
here's what i do:

i check at least two manuals for each load for a bullet.

i seat it at SAAMI OAL.

i start about 1/2 way up in the range of loads listed. no reason to start at minimum because i am not going to be happy with the velocity even if the accuracy is there.

i stop about 1 full grain from max in the books. i clearly mark with black permanent marker, the grains and powder type on the case. it comes right off in the tumbler. for instance, i would write "35.5 V" so i know that one has 35.5 grains of Varget in it.

i work in 1/2 grain increments, and load 5 shots per 1/2 grain increment.

if i have reached the 1 grain below max with no pressure signs and no accuracy i will try thee max load, looking for that accuracy.

however, about 97% of the time i find an accurate load this way. i load 5 because i used to use 3 and it was nagging in the back of my mind that if a group wasn't good....did i pull one? is it the load or not?

in this way i avoid having a ton of loaded cartridges that didnt group.

as always, find your own way but if you like, try mine and see what you think.

obviously, if one or two of the groups shows promise i load that combo again and try on a different day.

if it still shows promise but isn't quite there i simply seat the bullet out a bit. since i started at standard length i have some room to move the bullet out and get closer to the rifling.

i use remington 9.5 large rifle primers and remington benchrest small primers. i typically use winchester brass and sierra or nosler bullets. this is not random, they just work best for me after trying a lot of different stuff.

i can get almost every rifle i have owned into the 3/4" or less att 100 yards range.

the ones i cannot, either leave or get bedded and floated and try again.

hope this book i just wrote helps!

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Offline saddlebum

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Re: how many rounds to test loads?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 03:45:32 PM »
I go about it alot like GB with some exceptions. I research and narrow it  down to one bullet and one power and one primer. I too start at least half way up the load chart to save time. All of my loads seem to find their best accuracy very close to a max listed charge weight. I load 3 rounds per charge weight and 3 or 4 different charges. I too use .5gr increments. I always seat the bullets so they are as close to touching the lands, without touching, as possible when loading. Then go to the range. If it's windy forget it. Usually the groups get progressively tighter until I go one charge too far and the group spreads or get high pressure signs. If the tightest group makes me happy then I'm done. I do enough research beforehand on components that I get what I'm looking for the first time, usually. I'm talking about hunting rifles and loads here and if I get .75" or less at 100yds I'm happy. If not I go back to work and see if I can fix that.
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