Author Topic: Getting a C&R Questions  (Read 1086 times)

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Offline mosparky

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Getting a C&R Questions
« on: April 12, 2010, 06:27:02 PM »
I think I might just go ahead and get mine this year with tax money.
 A few questions
 What do I do about a Bound book ? Does it have to be lined and collumed for the aquistions and dispositions ?
What qualifies as a bound book ?
Who is my CLEO ? city police cheif ( I do live in the city limits) or county sheriff ?
Perhaps someone from Missouri can help with this next one.
I recently heard that a permit from the sheriff for handguns is no longer required here. Just a NICS check. I'm pretty sure that with a C&R I don't need to go thru all that to purchase but what about when and if I transfer to my private collection.
 Are there any problems with listings on Gunbroker and such when they say C&R eligible ? should I verify or can I pretty much just take their word for it ? I've seen some that say they are eligible, but from the pics and discription, they are obviously altered from the original configuration. Scopes added, sporterized stocks, new stocks ect.
 I pretty much just want it for the discounts available, but there are a few guns out there I'd really like to have.

Offline torpedoman

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2010, 07:42:27 PM »
any notebook qualifies nothing special required. cleo sheriff in your county; in city limits may be chief of police. Anything older than 50 years is C&R.
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Offline mrloring

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2010, 05:24:31 PM »
This is the bound book sheet that I use.  I keep it in a three ring binder in sheet protectors.  The sheet protectors provide a handy place to keep the receipts.  

http://www.surplusrifle.com/graphics/boundbookpage.pdf

As far as the CLEO it depends.  Many people say "It is who would respond if you called 911".  In my area I send mine to the sheriff but they are NOT who would respond if I called 911.  My best advise is call them and ask who gets the letter from an FFL.  Leave it generic as "FFL" they may not be familiar with a C&R FFL.  All you have to do is send the letter, the rest is up to the CLEO.  


Offline NRAJOE

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 01:50:42 AM »
I let my C&R expire after 9 yrs last August....re-applied last Friday....I have a county Sheriff and a city Chief of police...sent the copy to the city police chief like all the other times.
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Offline mosparky

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2010, 06:13:01 AM »
Thanks for the responces. I guess I got a little confused. When they said Bound book, I'm thinking a book with a binding like a hardback or paperback novel, where the pages aren't easily removed without evidence that something had been altered. Then there was some mention of guns in my personal collection being sold after 2 yrs and I got to thinking my personal collection was something different than the guns on my A & D book, so I might have to enter them as a disposition to myself, then keep them 2 yrs before I could do something else with them. Now I understand the A&D form IS my personal collection  (just a list of arms I aquired thru channels other than usual paperwork).
 Then the Original Configuration clause got me. I guess that applies to arms that are on the list that are less than 50 yrs old.
 I wish they would publish a book that was dedicated to C&R rules only, instead of having it all cluttered with all the other classes of FFL.
 
 AREN'T THE M16/AR15'S COMING UP ON 50 YEARS OLD ???

Offline TribReady

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2010, 07:45:19 AM »
"Original configuration" will get into a lengthy conversation and disputes.  Look on here and other forums to see the trail of arguments. I've bought and sold "sporterized" milsurps as C&R, but it's up to you to decide on that.
As far as double checking what is listed here or on Gunbroker or somewhere, you can most often "take their word for it" and most times there's no question if there's a date stamp on the firearm. However, it's your license and your arse on the line, so I'd double check  ;)
I've always thought CLEO was the county sheriff, but I may be wrong. Can't hurt to let more jurisdictions know, but make sure to include the sheriff's office.
A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas Jefferson


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Offline mrussel

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2010, 10:24:49 PM »
Thanks for the responces. I guess I got a little confused. When they said Bound book, I'm thinking a book with a binding like a hardback or paperback novel, where the pages aren't easily removed without evidence that something had been altered. Then there was some mention of guns in my personal collection being sold after 2 yrs and I got to thinking my personal collection was something different than the guns on my A & D book, so I might have to enter them as a disposition to myself, then keep them 2 yrs before I could do something else with them. Now I understand the A&D form IS my personal collection  (just a list of arms I aquired thru channels other than usual paperwork).
 Then the Original Configuration clause got me. I guess that applies to arms that are on the list that are less than 50 yrs old.
 I wish they would publish a book that was dedicated to C&R rules only, instead of having it all cluttered with all the other classes of FFL.
 
 AREN'T THE M16/AR15'S COMING UP ON 50 YEARS OLD ???

 My understanding is,ANYTHING you aquire that is a C&R MUST be logged in the book. Its not that you "used the license" but instead you "are licensed". If its not a  C&R presumably it does not count and it does not have to be entered. Thats an interesting question though,because what is and is not a C&R can be up in the air. Clearly a brand new Taurus revolver is NOT a C&R and anything over 50 years old IS one. Heres what the ATF website says.

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?

    Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

       1. Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
       2. Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
       3. Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

  A Charter Arms 38 special revolver made in the 60s is NOT a C&R. The one that shot John Lennon,as macabre as that is,probably would be under the third definition. What happens if ATF disagrees. If its a grey area,then you could of course purchase it using normal procedures,background checks ,shipping to a FFL dealer etc. The issue that I wonder about is logging. As an example,I have a old Sears JC Higgins model 21 shotgun. It has couple of Quail crudely engraved on it as well as two peoples names,Clark Mangum and Jerry Mangum (both have the same last name). To me this means nothing. Suppose for some odd reason,ATF examines my collection at my home (I understand that usually,its done at their office) and notices the shotgun. The agent says,"oh,that shotgun belonged to noted artist C Mangum,who painted hunting scenes involving ducks and in fact,that very shotgun,with the quail engraving appears in one of his paintings being held by his son Jerry. Thats a C&R as per defintion 3,why didnt you log it in your book?" I of course am thinking what the heck,how would anyone other than a art collector KNOW anything about who this guy was?

 I agree that such a situation is implausible. I can just imagine that someone had a bone to pick for some reason though and was "looking for an excuse" to make your life miserable,like say,God forbid,you sold someone a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle,and he turned out to be a nut that committed some terrible crime then killed himself,leaving a lot of very angry Los Angeles police with no one to take it out on,except perhaps the guy who sold the gun.

Offline mrloring

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 11:35:54 AM »
Suppose for some odd reason,ATF examines my collection at my home (I understand that usually,its done at their office) and notices the shotgun.

Q: With a C&R license, CAN or DOES ATF come for inspections to your home?

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.

Don't show them the shotgun. You only have to show them the firearms aquired as a licensed collector.





Offline mrussel

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 06:48:51 PM »
Suppose for some odd reason,ATF examines my collection at my home (I understand that usually,its done at their office) and notices the shotgun.

Q: With a C&R license, CAN or DOES ATF come for inspections to your home?

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.

Don't show them the shotgun. You only have to show them the firearms aquired as a licensed collector.






 That was sort of my question. I understand that you ANY C&R firearm acquired, is acquired AS a collector. You cant decide "Im going to acquire this as a collector and put it in the book,but this one I will buy in a private sale at a gun show and not put in the book and this one I will buy from a licensed dealer and also not put in the book." If its a C&R and you acquire it when licensed,my understanding is,it goes in the book. My issue is that there are some weapons out there that might be C&Rs or might not be.  Its sort of the flip side of acquiring a C&R rifle sight unseen and finding that its been altered and thus not really a C&R at all,and that you just had a gun shipped illegally to you. In this case however,you would have purchased a weapon you thought was NOT a C&R and yet if they decide it IS one,then you've just violated the law by not logging it. I cant imagine it happening often,but I can imagine if they were looking for an excuse,someone might decide to start looking real hard for anything you did wrong to make your life miserable. I wonder if there is any legal protections against this happening.

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: Getting a C&R Questions
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 03:36:47 PM »
I'm not letting my C&R FFL03 license expire again.  In my new town the police chief is a woman and she thinks that no one should own guns besides LEO's.  This surely puts me in a bad position to get any legal class 3 weapons in the future to play with(full auto).  I really don't think they can stop me with any license but they can break my nuts for sure.