Author Topic: Ultimate Pack Gun (Updated with Drawings)  (Read 3080 times)

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Offline Matt3357

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Ultimate Pack Gun (Updated with Drawings)
« on: April 14, 2010, 07:46:32 AM »
Anyone ever thought of cutting a barrel down to 16" and adding a folding stock?  The stock would have to be custom but not too out of line.  I would guess that it would be around 20-22" folded and with an ultra light barrel weigh around 3 lbs.  Not too shabby for a multi-barrel platform.  Let me know what you guys think.

Matt
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Offline Daman

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 07:51:05 AM »
Sounds interesting. Personally not for me since I have a pistol grip shotgun, a 22 pistol that shoots like a rifle, and my Topper 30-30 or 22 Hornet either one is only 34" long and just over 4 pounds. I think it would be neat for some of you guys who backpack in the mountains or something like that.

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Offline retrosub

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 08:05:44 AM »
I think the Federal minimum overall length is 26", but it varies by state, I'm in California and I'm pretty sure it's 30". If the gun can fire at a length under the minimum, I don't think it's legal. So if you have a telescoping stock and it's 26.5" fully extended, it's probably not legal if you can collapse it shorter and still fire it.

You could make a quick-release forend and then just put the barrel on when you take it out of your pack. Sounds like a fun project. What caliber?

Offline Matt3357

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 08:14:08 AM »
Everything I have read, (If it's on the internet it's true right?) is that the overall length of 26" is measured with the fold-able stock extended.  It can't have an easily removable stock and still be able to fire however.  I have not found those exact words on the ATF website, but that seems to be the general consensus of everything I have found.

Matt

Oh and  I was thinking of doing it to a 22lr sportster.  But it could be done to anything that the stock to handle.  That would be your limiting factor.  Ideally do it to an SB2 frame and find a versa pack barrel, could have it all that way.
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Offline uncyboo

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 10:22:17 AM »
No folder....yet. 7mm-08 cut to 16 1/4". Total length is 32". It gives new meaning to "Handi". It does take some getting used to, as there is so little weight up front. But it is very, very fast to get into play.


Offline Kal52

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 11:53:56 AM »
this is my plan, 30-30 with 16.5-18" barrel, BC stocks, not sure on optics or slings yet

should look like this, have all but the cutting to do.

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 12:02:18 PM »
Choate sells folders for TC. Kinda heavy. Extended vs collapsed is a state thing. If you think about it, taking the buttstock off a Handi violates federal law the second you do it with a 22 inch barrel mounted.

Offline Airsporter

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2010, 01:24:00 PM »
Everything I have read, (If it's on the internet it's true right?) is that the overall length of 26" is measured with the fold-able stock extended. 

I don't think so!  If it can be fired with the stock 'folded,' that is how length is measured.

Offline Matt3357

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 01:31:30 PM »
Then what about fold-able stocks on any modern gun.  AK's, SKS's, 10/22's, TC's.  Please state your source.

Thanks,
Matt
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Offline Curt Dawson

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 01:49:12 PM »
Uncyboo; I have the exact same rifle in 45-70.

Offline uncyboo

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 04:41:18 PM »
Uncyboo; I have the exact same rifle in 45-70.

I almost traded this barrel away a couple weeks ago. I reconfigured my Handi stuff and am now glad I didn't. Thinkin' about loading up some 100 grainers and taking it gopher hunting next time I'm in Montana. Will be really "Handi" from the truck.

Offline uncyboo

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 04:43:17 PM »
Uncyboo; I have the exact same rifle in 45-70.

Maybe you should respond to bikerbean's thread asking if anyone has cut down their 45-70...

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 05:08:20 PM »
Then what about fold-able stocks on any modern gun.  AK's, SKS's, 10/22's, TC's.  Please state your source.

Thanks,
Matt
You are correct per the ATF. States can be different.


Offline Matt3357

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 05:14:36 PM »
Thanks wreckhog,  I sent them an email just now asking the same question.  Apparently they did not consider that issue when they wrote the original laws.  I have to check with IL laws, but it seems they have not considered the issue either and the same law applies. 

Thanks,
Matt
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 05:26:30 PM »
Michigan comes to mind as a state that goes with collapsed OAL length.

Offline retrosub

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 09:23:38 PM »
Putting the legal length stuff aside, what's the lightest weight barrel available? A larger caliber should make for a lighter barrel (same profile, less metal inside)? I have a 12 gauge shorty 18.25" rifled barrel and I'm amazed how light that barrel is, much lighter than my 30-06 if I cut it to the same length. What's the most effective caliber in a short barrel?

It would be really neat to have a titanium receiver, but since that's unlikely, what parts can be switched out for lighter pieces? I can imagine using aluminum or titanium for some of the internal pieces. Maybe some weight can be trimmed off the frame. Not so much that it's unsafe, but there's always wasted metal somewhere.

That 7-08 is really cool looking....

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 09:36:37 PM »
I have a Hornet with 16 1/4" barrel and the API collapsible AR type stock,very handie

Offline Matt3357

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2010, 04:31:57 AM »
I was actually thinking about doing this to my hornet.  It is too old to add barrels too and I was planning on cutting it down anyways.  Sounds like a perfect fit.  What about optics?  I was thinking about getting a set of quick disconnect rings and one of those 2-7 power Redfields for $130.  Should be low profile and easily removable should you want to pack it separately.  Keep the ideas comin.

Matt
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Offline retrosub

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2010, 04:53:14 AM »
On my 18" rifled slug barrel I have a Simmons 2.5 x 20 scope with 6" eye relief, it does not extend past the hammer. This is nice because I can remove the barrel and pack it in a backpack and it's not much longer than the barrel alone. The scope is very compact and light, if you go with a take-apart job instead of collapsing stock, consider a similar scope.

Since you're talking "Ultimate" what about turning down the barrel and then wrapping with carbon fiber? I've built spearguns out of carbon fiber, it's very similar to working with fiberglass. Spin the barrel slowly on a spit and wrap with carbon, just like they do for making composite alum/carbon kayak paddles. Or maybe use nomex or kevlar fabric first, that may work better against heat, then wrap with carbon for stiffness.

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 05:37:56 AM »
My 12s are the lightest. More so since they are the longest.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 07:06:50 AM »
One of those new little red-dot rigs would be the smallest/lightest affordable I would think.
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 07:21:15 AM »
Notice that the length folded and usable is 25.5". Perfectly legal in most states.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16c.htm


Offline Matt3357

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 08:03:46 AM »
I like that design a lot.  I don't want a pistol grip and a fold under design could be made very compact on a handi-rifle.  Anyone got a hinge design they want to share?  That I think is going to be the biggest hurdle.  Even if I could come up with a design that doesn't "snap" into position.  Maybe one you have to turn a knob to release.  Might have to go with a side folder if a decent butt bad is wanted.  For a light weight caliber you might be able to design a simple stock like this:

http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/images/VZ58102-800px.jpg

Matt
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Offline Default_Required

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2010, 09:14:48 AM »
 A youth length stock with a good eye relief optic i.e. holographic, red dot, pistol scope scouted. might serve well with the shortened barrel and clear up the choice of folding stock and still be very light and compact . I tried one of the ATI colasping stocks a couple years ago and it did what I wanted it to do , Of course that stock configuration may be the most cost effective and practical for a real light/short rifle, Then say a heavy and akward home designed swing style stock.

 As for the lightest caliber choice, the larger bores are going to win that one I would think. A 44 mag or 45 colt maybe the ideal one for the short and light rifle , weither the total over all weight is signifigantly lighter then a 243/223/22 hornet light contour youth style barrel chopped down to 16 1/4 may not be negligable enough to matter. I think that is when you need to ask what caliber for what type situation you foresee using / needing the super light shorty for.

 You may find that your ideal short and light rifle may be filled better by the Kel-Tec sub 2000 ( rifle folds in half and can fit in a good sized range bag of lap top case) rifle line in the 9mm or 40 cal options , with magizine choices to match your side arm , Unless you are just commited to the H&R platform ?

 That might be an option worth investigating.

Offline Airsporter

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 12:35:42 PM »
Then what about fold-able stocks on any modern gun.  AK's, SKS's, 10/22's, TC's.  Please state your source.

With all due respect, ATF is all over the map on this stuff.  I had one ATF agent tell me a dealer can not ship a handgun to another dealer by US mail.  That is pure bunk.  Anyway, as they say in Britain "you have been warned."

Offline Matt3357

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 01:14:58 PM »
Duly noted Airsporter. 

Thanks,
Matt
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Offline Rayzor

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 03:31:42 PM »
Ihave been thinking of building a shorty myself. But not with a folding stock. I can unscrew the barrel and have it in two pieces faster then my buddy can with his savage 99 take down model. The handi is shorter over all in two pieces then that rifle. I have been able to shove the rifle in my brush pack with room to spare. It would be even better if I had a peep sight rather then a scope though. Been thinking on what type of screw to use in the front so I dont need to carry a phillips.

Offline Kal52

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 04:01:43 PM »
you can find the the answer to that in the FaQ i believe, Ill have to check
here it is! http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=40611212
or you can go the survivor forend.
or you can get yourself a swiss tech micro tool, I loved mine until I lost it in a move.

Dave

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2010, 04:17:21 PM »
Go to the hardware store and get the right thread screw for your's only with a std slot rather than the Phillips, then you can use a coin.
IF you are really cheap you can slot yours and touch-up blue and it is good for either.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline Rayzor

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Re: Ultimate Pack Gun
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2010, 04:38:03 PM »
That little knob looks like the ticket. I wonder how far it sticks out when its tight. Thanks for the link, this I gotta try.