Author Topic: Ultimate Pack Gun (Updated with Drawings) (Read 3083 times)

wreckhog · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2010, 07:43:02 AM »

Quote from: Rayzor on April 15, 2010, 03:31:42 PM

Ihave been thinking of building a shorty myself. But not with a folding stock. I can unscrew the barrel and have it in two pieces faster then my buddy can with his savage 99 take down model. The handi is shorter over all in two pieces then that rifle. I have been able to shove the rifle in my brush pack with room to spare. It would be even better if I had a peep sight rather then a scope though. Been thinking on what type of screw to use in the front so I dont need to carry a phillips.

Topper 158 with a snap on forearm. Coolest thing.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:43:30 PM »

I did some drawing and some photo shopping this weekend and here is the basic idea I have come up with. Lemme know what you guys think.

Extended - ~30"

Folded - 22.5"

Rayzor · « **Reply #32 on:** April 18, 2010, 09:07:37 PM »

Looks pretty cool. What are you thinking of making it out of? Like aluminum?

tturner53 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 18, 2010, 09:13:41 PM »

I got a youth model .223 for carrying to the range on my motorcycle. Broke down it fits in the saddle bags. The short LOP isn't that big of deal, unless you're really getting serious. I've put on a slip on recoil pad for bench shooting, lengthens it just right. It might be my handiest Handi and a great gun for indulging survivalist fantasies. I call it my single shot AR.

retrosub · « **Reply #34 on:** April 19, 2010, 08:57:19 AM »

Cool drawing. What do you suppose the packed-up length is?

What about making the buttpad removable, or have it swing into place? Would fit in a small scabbard easily if it was just a bit more streamlined.

Or, what about a stock that flipped up and over the top?

Like this: http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/12gaugepump.jpg

Matt3357 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 19, 2010, 11:06:55 AM »

I plan on making it out of thin walled chromoly tubing.

Packed up length measured with respect to the barrel being 16.25" long is 22.5" and 30" extended. I think I am going to put a small scope on it thought so the top fold design will not work for it. I did have another idea today though. It will pop out laterally and fold up to the side, lining the butt pad up with the frame and scope. I'll modify my drawing tonight to show what I am talking about. I think I chose a scope too.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/timberline1.html

Now if I can find one used.

Thanks,
Matt

mike@nds · « **Reply #36 on:** April 19, 2010, 11:09:55 AM »

I'd go with the Choate youth stock and Survivor forend.

Takes down quick and has decent ergonomics unlike most folding stocks.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 19, 2010, 03:30:57 PM »

Ok so here is my latest revision.

The stock will flip up and lock in place then flip back down and lock in place. Should be rather compact yet sturdy. I have a set of junky straight stocks coming in the mail this week for trial number one. With school nearing finals, I won't have a hinge until after then, but I will have materials and a final design by then.

Matt

Airsporter · « **Reply #38 on:** May 06, 2010, 11:49:56 AM »

Sorry to keep popping up here as a 'nay-sayer,' but are you aware that the ATF letter in this thread appears to be addressing the measurement of "NFA" firearms? That is, firearms already subject to the National Firearms Act. If so, they are subject to registration with ATF and a transfer stamp.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 07, 2010, 03:56:57 AM »

How is a new gun not part of the National Firearms Act? I am not sure what you are talking about. Are not all guns subjected to the same laws under the same act? How would it be any different than if I put one of the folding stocks on a shotgun? I believe the over the top style was posted in one of the older posts. I'm not trying to be arrogant, I just don't understand how the NFA would just apply to a few firearms, please explain. It's not as though I am manufacturing the gun from raw parts, I would just be adding a folding stock that is not easily removable without tools that would be over 26" extended, not sure of any other requirements that I need to meet.

Thanks for your concern, I for sure don't want to lose all my guns and go to jail for something as stupid as a misinterpretation of a very vague law.

Matt

Airsporter · « **Reply #40 on:** May 07, 2010, 09:47:48 AM »

The term 'NFA firearm' refers to those that fall under the specific definition of a 'firearm' in the National Firearms Act; and must be registered with ATF for legal ownership/possession. It's not the 'normal' definition of a firearm. This is the definition in 26 U.S.C § 5845:

The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels
of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26
inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3)
a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified
has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels
of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined
in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined
in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8 ) a
destructive device.

The only question is: On a rifle with the minimum 16" barrel and a folding stock, do you measure for overall length with the stock folded or open? I have regularly seen this answered both ways. I was once told by an ATF agent that if it can be fired in a normal manner, with the folding stock folded, collapsed, or removed, it will be measured in the shortest configuration. Then too, the Kel-Tec SU-16C can be fired folded and is listed at 25.5"! So .... $:-\$

I wonder if you could register a Handi receiver with ATF as an NFA gun, then use whatever barrel length/stock configuation you want/ Hmmmm.......

Spawner · « **Reply #41 on:** May 07, 2010, 10:06:40 AM »

Really glad I ran across this thread!

I just ordered a Sportster and want to put together a short .22 barrel and skeleton stock/forend to put in a pack and use with CB's/similar to quietly shoot grouse etc. when I'm hunting big game. I don't think it would be effective much past 30 yards or so and was planning on using the factory sights.

I'm not real familiar with the Handi's though and, like Razor, was thinking removing the barrel and packing receiver/barrel separatly. Seems like ATF SHOULDN'T have a problem with that (?) and it wouldn't be much of a problem to reassemble when I wanted to use it. Is there a problem I'm not seeing in that approach?

Matt, I'll be anxious to see your finished pack rifle. I hadn't thought about making a centerfire pack rifle for big game but you've got me thinking about it now!

~Spawner

Matt3357 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 07, 2010, 10:56:09 AM »

Wow, what a vague description that could be interpreted in many different ways. I know that you can communicate with the ATF by snail mail, is there any way to call and talk to some one about it that would produce the real answer? Surely someone has been to court over this and there is a solid ruling. Anyway to find out? I for one don't want to press my luck, but at the same time my curiosity has been piqued and if it is for sure legal, I will do it. Who can I talk to that will lay it down like it is?

Thanks,
Matt

wreckhog · « **Reply #43 on:** May 07, 2010, 03:13:59 PM »

Quote from: Spawner on May 07, 2010, 10:06:40 AM

Really glad I ran across this thread!

I just ordered a Sportster and want to put together a short .22 barrel and skeleton stock/forend to put in a pack and use with CB's/similar to quietly shoot grouse etc. when I'm hunting big game. I don't think it would be effective much past 30 yards or so and was planning on using the factory sights.

I'm not real familiar with the Handi's though and, like Razor, was thinking removing the barrel and packing receiver/barrel separatly. Seems like ATF SHOULDN'T have a problem with that (?) and it wouldn't be much of a problem to reassemble when I wanted to use it. Is there a problem I'm not seeing in that approach?

Matt, I'll be anxious to see your finished pack rifle. I hadn't thought about making a centerfire pack rifle for big game but you've got me thinking about it now!

~Spawner

Any time you remove the fixed buttstock on a 22" Handi without removing the barrel first, you are breaking the law. It can fire, it is a rifle, and it is under 26". Is that somehow more or less illegal than a folding stock? Fun huh.

TheCoachZed · « **Reply #44 on:** May 07, 2010, 03:33:09 PM »

buuuuuuuuuuuuy an AR-7.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #45 on:** May 08, 2010, 07:42:46 AM »

Wreckhog,

Yeah but at the same time that part of the law is taken care of because it is not "easily" removed without tools to take it below 26". With a folding stock, it would be just a matter of pushing a button or unscrewing a thumb screw. The ATF is so frustrating. I guess when I get ready to do this, this summer, I'll have to try calling the local office and see what they say. Anyone know if it is in writing if that holds up in court?

Thanks,
Matt

gcrank1 · « **Reply #46 on:** May 08, 2010, 07:52:11 AM »

Are you familar with,'we're from the government and we're here to help you'?
Or, to paraphrase Men In Black
'We at the BATF are under no obligation to provide you with consistant relies to your inquires, as far as we are aware. Any answer that you receive at any given time may, or may not be correct.'
I suspect its pretty much the same with the IRS.

Spawner · « **Reply #47 on:** May 08, 2010, 12:43:35 PM »

Quote from: wreckhog on May 07, 2010, 03:13:59 PM

Quote from: Spawner on May 07, 2010, 10:06:40 AM

... like Razor, was thinking removing the barrel and packing receiver/barrel separatly. Seems like ATF SHOULDN'T have a problem with that (?) and it wouldn't be much of a problem to reassemble when I wanted to use it. Is there a problem I'm not seeing in that approach?...

~Spawner

Any time you remove the fixed buttstock on a 22" Handi without removing the barrel first, you are breaking the law. It can fire, it is a rifle, and it is under 26". Is that somehow more or less illegal than a folding stock? Fun huh.

I didn't think I'd need to remove the buttstock...? What I was thinking was just removing the forend grip and barrel, leaving the buttstock in place...that should let me put them in even my small pack pretty easily (if I shorten the barrel to say 17")...would that work?

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #48 on:** May 08, 2010, 03:19:17 PM »

I bought a .223 lightweight barrel on a synthetic youth stock a while back, that's about the handiest little rifle I've ever handed.

I think you'll find that if you have a long gun that at any time will fire while it is shorter than 26" you have a problem.

Matt3357 · « **Reply #49 on:** May 08, 2010, 03:53:11 PM »

I keep hearing that, but I want to know for sure. I hate not knowing whether or not I can do something, I don't like not being able to do something that I don't know is even illegal or not. I will find out and I will do it if it is legal. I do not like doing things just because they "might" be illegal. I won't do them if they are, but it is my right to choose to do them if they are in fact legal. So, here we are again, talking about the ATF.

Any one have any designs for a hinge? I have a couple in my mind, but they will require machining, of which I do not have the ability. My idea is for the stock to come out the side and fold up beside the receiver and lock back into place. Any genius ideas to do this without alot of machining?

Thanks,
Matt

Spawner · « **Reply #50 on:** May 08, 2010, 06:48:16 PM »

Quote from: Matt3357 on May 08, 2010, 03:53:11 PM

...Any one have any designs for a hinge? I have a couple in my mind, but they will require machining, of which I do not have the ability. My idea is for the stock to come out the side and fold up beside the receiver and lock back into place. Any genius ideas to do this without alot of machining?

Thanks,
Matt

A plain hinge or a hasp would work with a little bending, filing/grinding and drilling.

Good luck with the finals!
~Spawner

EDIT: OOPS...missed the fold "up"...hinge/hasp would fold side...

tony212 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 09, 2010, 01:46:48 AM »

I've been thinking about something similar in a shotgun. Was thinking maybe an 18 1/2" barrel threaded for choke tubes, and maybe an ATI collapsable stok and Choate Survivor foreend.
Tony212

jlwilliams · « **Reply #52 on:** May 09, 2010, 03:31:02 AM »

As I understand it, the length is measured with the stock unfolded, regardless of the gun's ability to fire closed or open. Since there is so much rididng on it, it's worth writing to the ATF and asking for clarification. You may or may not get a quicker response by bringing the letter to the local office. Don't bet that any well intended 'free internet advice' is worth much more than you pay for it, my friend.

That said, let's talk folders. You may be able to make a good stock by using existing parts. Maybe, for example, get the metal off of a folding stock from a 10-22 or an airsoft gun. Some of the airsofts have pretty elaborate hardware and they are all over. You can pick up a used or damaged airsoft gun on ebay for low dollars and canibalise it. At that point, you are just inletting a stock and screwing parts to it. Maybe a M1 Carbine paratrooper stock type set up. I've seen pictures of guns people have dressed up with airsoft parts. Basicaly they cut an airsoft gun apart and clamshell it around a 10-22 or the like. You can make a really close enough looking Steyr AUG or other exotic looking piece for short dollars that way.

I think that your concept is great. There are tons of options out there if you want a folding autoloader, but not so many for manual actions. A bolt action or a Handi wounld really do what you want it to as an outdoorsmanand making it easier to have with you and less likely to alarm people as you go to and from the woods sounds good to me.

One last note, it's already been mentioned but bears repeating. A Handi with a $200 tax stamp and acompaying registration to make a legit short barreled rifle would be quite a handy Handi. Not so different from the old Stevens pocket rifles from the days before the '34 National firearms Act.

Airsporter · « **Reply #53 on:** May 09, 2010, 06:07:45 AM »

The funny part about this is that the original intent of the legislation was to outlaw 'gangster' weapons following 'the roaring 20's.' $200 back in 1934 was a lot of money for a stamp! Definitely intended to deter people from ownership. Adjusted for inflation, that amount would be over $3200 today. Fortunately, it has never been changed

jlwilliams · « **Reply #54 on:** May 09, 2010, 06:43:56 AM »

Right you are. The idea that a rifle with a short barrel is in some way more dangerous than a full sized rifle, or more concealable than a traditional pistol, simply defies logic. How a Broomhandle or a stocked Luger (both period available short rifles) is more dangerous than a 35 caliber Remington autoloader is beyond me.