Author Topic: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...  (Read 1370 times)

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TM7

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April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« on: April 15, 2010, 03:23:41 AM »
and why you pay alot of tax......from Center on Budget and Policy Analysis.....fyi.....TM7

Tax Rate for Richest 400 Taxpayers Plummeted in Recent Decades, Even as Their Pre-Tax Incomes Skyrocketed


The effective federal income tax rate for the 400 taxpayers with the very highest incomes has declined by nearly half over the past two decades, even as their pre-tax incomes have grown five times larger, new IRS data show.[1]

The top 400 households paid 16.6 percent of their income in federal individual income taxes in 2007, down from 30 percent in 1995. This decline works out to a tax cut of $46 million per filer in 2007, or a total of $18 billion in tax cuts for these households per year.

To make it into the top 400, a household needed an adjusted gross income of at least $35 million in 1992 (in 2007 dollars) and $139 million in 2007.

The decline in effective tax rates at the very top is due in large part to the capital gains tax cuts enacted in 1997 and 2003. The top marginal tax rate on capital gains is now 15 percent, less than half the top tax rate on wages and salaries. The top 400 taxpayers derived two-thirds of their income from capital gains and qualified dividends in 2007.

Over roughly the same period, the top 400 filers enjoyed huge gains in pre-tax incomes. The average pre-tax income of this group rose by over 400 percent between 1992 and 2007, equivalent to a $275 million increase per person, after adjusting for inflation. In 2007 alone, average pre-tax incomes rose by 31 percent among these individuals.

In short, the top 400 filers now pay much lower effective tax rates on vastly larger incomes.

Capital Gains Tax Cuts Played Large Role
The low effective tax rate for the top 400 filers is largely due to the fact that capital gains and qualified dividends are taxed at much lower rates than ordinary income. In 2007, the top 400 filers derived 66 percent of their income from capital gains and dividends, compared to 22 percent for filers making between $500,000 and $1 million and just 2 percent for those making under $50,000. It is not surprising that two of the largest reductions in effective tax rates for the top 400 filers occurred in two two-year periods (1996-1998 and 2002-2004) that coincided with the capital gains tax cuts enacted in 1997 and 2003 (and, to a lesser extent, the dividend tax cut enacted in 2003). [2] Additionally, these households benefited from the reduction in the top two marginal income tax rates enacted in 2001.

Currently the top marginal tax rate on capital gains and dividend income is 15 percent, less than half the top rate on wages and salaries. The Obama Administration’s FY2011 budget proposes to raise this rate to 20 percent for high-income households, still well below the 28 percent capital gains tax rate enacted under the Reagan Administration and in effect for most of the 1990s. For dividends, at 20 percent the top rate would be roughly half of what it was during the prosperous 1990s. Under the Administration’s proposal, therefore, the very highest-income filers would continue to pay income tax at very low effective rates.

Top Earners Also Enjoyed Rapid Income Gains in Late 1990s and Last Expansion
Even as their effective tax rates were declining sharply, high-income filers benefited disproportionately from economic growth, other IRS data show. During the last economic expansion (from the end of 2001 to the end of 2007), two-thirds of the nation’s total income gain flowed to the highest-income 1 percent of Americans.[3] And between 1992 and 2007, the average pre-tax income of the top 1 percent of filers more than doubled, after adjusting for inflation, rising by 114 percent. [4]

The top 400 taxpayers — 3 out of every 1 million filers — enjoyed even larger gains in pre-tax incomes. Between 1992 and 2007, their average adjusted gross income increased by over 400 percent, after adjusting for inflation: from $68 million to $345 million (in 2007 dollars). Their incomes grew rapidly between 1995 and 2000, dropped during the 2001 recession, then rose rapidly again from 2002 to 2007.

Because of the steep reduction in effective tax rates for the top 400 households, their after-tax incomes grew even faster than their pre-tax incomes. Between 1992 and 2007, their average income after federal income taxes increased by 475 percent.

Although the 2007 data reflect the height of the last economic expansion, effective tax rates on the richest 400 taxpayers will likely remain very low after the current recession, largely because the portion of its overall income this group derives from capital gains has remained relatively constant over the past decade. In the last recession, this figure dropped from 64 percent in 2000 to 55 percent in 2002, before climbing again amidst further capital gains tax cuts and a strong stock market. If the markets rebound and preferential capital gains tax rates are extended, the very highest-income filers will continue to enjoy very low effective tax rates into the future, even as budget deficits become a more serious problem.

End Notes:

[1] The current IRS data series covers 1992 to 2007 and is available at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/07intop400.pdf. The original IRS study is Michael Parisi and Michael Strudler, “The Top 400 Individual Income Tax Returns Reporting the Highest Adjusted Gross Income Each Year, 1992-2000,” IRS Statistics of Income Bulletin, Spring 2003, Publication 1136. While consistent data are not available prior to 1992, David Cay Johnston shows that the effective tax rate for the top 400 taxpayers was 42 percent in 1961. See David Cay Johnston, “Is Our Tax System Helping Us Create Wealth?” Tax Notes, December 21, 2009, 1375-1377. See also David Cay Johnston, “Tax Rates for Top 400 Earners Fell as Income Soars, IRS Data Show,” Tax Notes, February 18, 2010.

[2] Both the capital gains tax cuts took effect mid-year. As a result, they had some effect on effective tax rates in the year of enactment, but their full effects were not felt until the following year; hence, the effects of these tax cuts are reflected in the data over the 1996-1998 and 2002-2004 periods. Reductions in marginal income tax rates enacted in 2001 and accelerated in 2003 undoubtedly also had a significant impact on tax rates for this group. See also Martin A. Sullivan, “Is the Income Tax Really Progressive?” Tax Notes, December 14, 2009, 1135-1137.

[3] See Avi Feller and Chad Stone, “Top 1 Percent of Americans Reaped Two-Thirds of Income Gains in Last Economic Expansion,” Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, September 9, 2009, .

[4] See Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, “Income Inequality in the United States: 1913-1998,” Quarterly Journal of Economics, February 2003. Their most recent data set is available at http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/TabFig2007.xls.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3090
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Offline Old Fart

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 06:25:14 AM »
I just wish someone would explain to me why my state tax fluctuates so much.
Last year we got back $800, this year I owe $600. ???
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 08:36:25 AM »
It sounds like pure class envy.
The top 5% pay more than 50% of the total taxes!
We need to have lower taxes so people can invest in the country and provide jobs.
If you think you can make a better mouse trap then capital is needed to bring it to market and if you tax the crud out of all the rich, Individuals and companies, then there will not be capital to invest in your mouse trap and provide jobs for people to make, sell and distrubite the product.  Our whole American system is based on people with what they think are better ideas to solve the nations wants and problems taking a risk to improve their lives and their families with blood sweat and coin.  The wish to have more of something is what drives people to do anything. 
We need to have a lower tax across the board and not have targeted tax cuts. 
A targeted tax cut is pure coruption.  If you live this way, or spend your $ with my friends you will pay less tax than the guy that is not making the person that contributed to my campaign richer.
We have proven again and again that socialism, and communism do not work and create shortages.  Limited government is what works and lower tax rates incourage growth in the economy that also increases the money headed to government for the manditory things government has to do as well as the fluff crud they are doing now.

Offline jimster

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 01:44:05 PM »
It's all about money...government has zero except what it can confiscate, it spends more than it takes in, ahead of time, picks who the bad guys are, capitalists of course because there IS NO OTHER MONEY. They tax the "bad guys", bad guys pass it on to everyone else, all the consumers.  Eventually, when the prices of the service and products get too high, the places that employ us no longer can employ us.  All because someone else wants to spend all our money, doesn't matter if you make 10,000 a year or you own a large company they will regulate and tax you so hard you won't be able to pay the wage you want, and yes...you are the bad guy now.  Now not only the government wants your money, but through the media they make lot's of people think your the bad guy. Your the "capitalist".  Now the government and a large portion of the people want your money.  

And if the State you live in runs their government like this too....you really got a problem. There is a whole other government who will pick who the bad guys are...who do ya think they pick?  

Offline skarke

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 04:03:12 AM »
TM, you always are entertaining :D :D :D
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline BBF

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 06:36:39 AM »
TM, you always are entertaining :D :D :D

  Meaning what??
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline BBF

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 07:31:07 AM »
 Nothing or close to nothing  IMO. Backroom deal, calling in favours or some smuck of lesser statue gets the axe.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline skarke

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2010, 11:43:44 AM »
I don't always agree with TM, but I love reading your stuff, man.  You write with passion, and express your opinions well.  I personally think that our tax code has become the most progressive in the industrialized world, which is in my opinion very dangerous to our republic.

When people have no stake in what the tax rate is, then they have no problem supporting candidates most likely to give them goodies with other peoples' money.

I support a flat consumption tax, a balanced budget, a mandatory government reserve of 20% of annual budget, a maximum total government expenditure at all levels of no more than 25% of GDP, and all kinds of other kooky stuff like that.

That must mean that I am an ultra right wing fanatic ;D ;D ;D
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline DDZ

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 01:23:58 PM »

 The above report shows how the wealthy escape fair taxes
..TM7


Geeesh! TM do you really believe this? You could copy and paste a 100 pages of this stuff, but I doubt you will change peoples minds on how unfair our tax code is. What makes you think that the top 25% of earners paying 87% of the total taxes is not enough for them to pay? Especially when the bottom half don't contribute anything, and the majority of them actually get money from people that pay their taxes.
 It just doesn't make much sense to punish the achievers, or the people that have taken risks in building a successful business, that employs people. What incentive is there to build your business, hire more people, and make more money if government is going to steal it from you.
How can you say jobs are not created by rich people? Who do you think creates them Obama? wait, I could be wrong there. If Obama creates enough government programs that needs hordes of people to run them, then yes Obama created them. Just give everyone a government job, and make the greedy rich people pay their wages.  I don't know about you, but I've never had a poor person sign a pay check for me. Come to think of it I don't know anyone that works for a poor person.

Why even go to work? Heck why not just vote yourself some government lollipops, and make the evil, greedy, rich guys pay.
Ever read Atlas Shrugged?   
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Offline DDZ

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 01:30:47 PM »
I don't always agree with TM, but I love reading your stuff, man.  You write with passion, and express your opinions well.  I personally think that our tax code has become the most progressive in the industrialized world, which is in my opinion very dangerous to our republic.

When people have no stake in what the tax rate is, then they have no problem supporting candidates most likely to give them goodies with other peoples' money.

I support a flat consumption tax, a balanced budget, a mandatory government reserve of 20% of annual budget, a maximum total government expenditure at all levels of no more than 25% of GDP, and all kinds of other kooky stuff like that.

That must mean that I am an ultra right wing fanatic ;D ;D ;D

Come on Skarke, do you mean make everyone pay some federal income tax? How would we ever be able to vote money out of other peoples pockets?  You must be an evil right wing extremist!  :D
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline jimster

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 02:05:14 PM »
If anyone is thinking the wealthy "escape fair taxes"...they then must have an idea what fair is I would think. Debatable, tons of information out there on how much they pay, some are factual some are not.  I would tend to agree with the IRS who has already reported they pay the most.  So I was talking earlier on who the "bad guys" are...this is a prime example of the people picking a bad guy.  Anyone who is is wealthy (everyone gets to choose what those numbers are) and anyone who had done really well, seems to be the bad guys.  Of course the wealthy pay more taxes than anyone else, there is no other money the government can get.  How hard is that to figure out.  Regulations on businesses are the same as a tax, in most cases much more expensive...regulations are just another form of tax, all goes to the same place. The government.  What some people don't get is the one thing they can't legislate, is to force a business to stay in business while they run in the red.  They just shrink, or move, or shut down.  You would think government would figure out there is only one place to get any money.  Bottom line is, the majority of Americans are going to work for somebody, and not have their own business, so to keep thinking that places that operate in the millions and billions are going to flip the whole bill for a government that spends in the trillions...is simply insane and does not work out on a calculator.  So regardless if your a flaming 60's liberal or a "right winger"...if the math don't work, it don't work, how can there be any argument on what we need to do.  Get out of the pockets of all the people, which is really what happens when they "TAX the WEALTHY".  There is no way any government will be able to spend this much, and get the money from any of us.  It causes everyone to pick the "bad guys".  The bad guys will always be anyone with money, you tax them, they pass it on to you.  The root of the problem is government...not wealthy people.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2010, 02:42:28 PM »
Knew a Djiboutian Somali once that had a work ethic for a while. Worked hard for an NGO, made good $. Then I noticed he wasn't around, so I looked him up. Robleh, he says, I was the only one with a job out of 80 people in my family. And most of them sit around all day and chew the khat (narcotic). I got tired working hard to pay for everyone else's khat. So now I sit around and chew the khat, and let someone else work to pay for it.

Fair means equitable, so a consumption tax is the most fair. If you don't like to pay taxes, don't consume; produce.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 02:50:20 PM »
They should move tax day.
It should be due on the day of the year when you have paid all of your federal and state income taxes. think mine would be some time in the middle of July.  dding up all the sales (everything I buy), property( things I own and already paid a sales tax on but have to send more $ each year to continue to own it), income, payroll, fees (gas guzzler tax on cars and things like this), use (fuel, tolls, utility) , and sin taxes (added taxes on items like Guns, booze, and tabaco).  And this does not include the taxes that are built into the price of goods that the maker, shipper, and seller of goods and services of the items  buy.  I think my tax day would e in late AUGUST if  figured that into the equasion.  o almost 3/4 of the money I earn goes to the Federal, state, and local governments is some form or another.
 I think that would wake everyone up as to how much you really pay in taxes if you all of a sudden are told that your taxes are due on your tax independance day of May, June, or July.

Offline hillbill

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2010, 04:44:35 PM »
im a firm believer in a consumption tax. even the drug dealers and prostitutes would pay that. can anybody tell me why it wont work?im totally open to any arguement. inform me, please.now im not talking about a VAT taxe in addition to income tax, jus a pure consumption tax.1 2 3 go!

Offline hillbill

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2010, 04:53:04 PM »
TM7, now im unclear in how the wealthy could escape from a consumption tax?they consume more as in goods and services, the poor consume less as in goods and services.i may be wrong in this, educate me?without loopholes, the more yu spend the more yu pay? and trust me im not against rich people, ive never gotten a job from a poor person. well actually i have but it was just cuz id do what they were too lazy too. but it was kind of intermittent.please get me up to speed with facts and figures.haPPy hunting yuall!

Offline BBF

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2010, 05:41:07 AM »
I don't always agree with TM, but I love reading your stuff, man.  You write with passion, and express your opinions well. .................

That must mean that I am an ultra right wing fanatic ;D ;D ;D

In that case  " Live long and Prosper" :D ;D
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2010, 06:43:23 AM »
im a firm believer in a consumption tax. even the drug dealers and prostitutes would pay that. can anybody tell me why it wont work?im totally open to any arguement. inform me, please.now im not talking about a VAT taxe in addition to income tax, jus a pure consumption tax.1 2 3 go!
A consumption tax would work but only id you eliminate all other taxes.
Adding a new consumption tax on top of all the Income, Consumption, sin, and other fees that are already in place is just going to criple our economy.

Offline skarke

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2010, 11:47:04 AM »
I agree with TM7.  Adding another vehicle to tax Americans is getting just plain ridiculous.  However, I also, referring to the original post, strongly oppose capital gains taxes, ESPECIALLY if they are not indexed to inflation.  Why should somebody have to pay 15, 30, or even some proposals of close to 50% tax on capital gains taxes when there is no net gain in the real value of the asset?

Also, reducing (eliminating) capital gains taxes for disposing of real capital (machinery, factories, property, etc.) where the proceeds will be used to fund acquisition of other real property (bigger, better factory) might be the strongest economic stimulator in the tool box.

Capital gains from speculation, derivatives, just plain gambling on currency and paper is a completely different matter.  While I think that paying capital gains taxes from inflation gains, even on these assets, is wrong, I really don't have a problem with (if we are going to maintain this punitive tax system anyway) there being an inflation indexed tax on these types of gains.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline skarke

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2010, 12:40:17 PM »
TM, we're on the same page, man.  Remember, proceeds from the sale of an asset after depreciation carries its own risk, separate from the appreciation of the asset.  All I'm saying is that people shouldn't pay taxes on assets realizing, after inflation, no real appreciation.

All this funny accounting to avoid taxes (options over salary, stock purchase plans, etc) upsets me jast as much as the next guy.

That is why, when I become King, there will be one tax, levied by the respective States.  It will be a straight sales tax (no gas tax, cigarette tax, property tax, etc).  The States in turn will be responsible for paying a bloc grant to the feds, based upon Census numbers of population of each respective State, which shall not exceed 15% of GDP.

States can levy any rate that they wish.  People (jobs, industry, etc.) will flock to areas of lowest government costs, as long as the "necessary evil" fulfills its basic function, and avoids anarchy.

Also, there will be an edict from the Monarchy that all branches of government will maintain a 20% surplus fund for governmental emergency, to be replenished after said emergency within 5 years.

Last, under the Kingship according to Dan, the total consumption of the Government at all levels will never exceed 30% of GDP, except in case of war.

Last, every living American will be required to learn one Patsy Cline song and one Merle Haggard song before graduating kindergarden.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline skarke

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2010, 12:53:20 PM »
Yea, but the singing sure would be purdy ;D ;D ;D
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2010, 01:06:28 PM »
Sounds all OKay to me Skarke....just remember to make that sales tax a little progressive....and give some real though about the danger of total and complete consolidation of wealth and influence in the hands of a select few.....not healthy for us (or them) in the long run....


..TM7
In true capitalism you have people moving around from the rich to poor and poor to rich and everywhere inbetween.
Actually the progressive tax system we have now insures the rich get to keep their wealth and keep more from obtaining it.  Also with the current tax laws that reward you for doing something or penalize you for not doing something ensures the rich will remain rich.
Personally I think a Flat tax with a very large deductible the only fair way.  That way the more you make the more you pay,  Same percentage but more volume.  Will also inspire people to reinvest in the country.  Also what is rich in one part of the country is not so rich in other parts.
If you make 50,000 a year in one area of the country you can own a nice house and have two cars.  In other parts of the county you are renting and driving a beater.  All depends on the area.
For example my rent is probably double your morguage for a small 3 bedroom 1400 sq foot house.   But you can not have a zip code by zipcode exemption.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2010, 02:01:31 PM »
The way the tax code is set up.  The very wealthy end up paying less as they are usually the reciepients of the tax laws.
While we do need some rules for the system, they rules should apply to all equally.  A flat tax does that best.
If you want to make it a scaled flat tax of 5% up to 1 million and 7% to 2 million and 10 % above then fine.  But the 14th amendment says what is legal for one citizen is legal for all. (in a nut shell)
But there can be not other tax code than what I just wrote.  These silly rules of do this, invest here, don't invest here, buy this have got to go.  It is social engineering. While Government has an interest in moving the economy one way or the other clearly the system has been courpted and needs to be rehauled.  Clearly there is a problem when the IRS help line says that they may or may not give you the right advise but if it is wrong you are responsible.  The code is too complex and needs to be simplified or scraped would be better and start over

Offline teamnelson

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Re: April 15....Tax Data the IRS doesn't tell you...
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2010, 09:26:08 PM »
Would not a tax on consumption be more "fair" than a flat tax on income? After all, the purpose of taxes is to cover the cost of public services, so those who consume the most should pay the most? There would have to be a floor minimum in that everyone draws from the pool of EMS, Fire, Police, Government, etc. Just a thought.
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