Author Topic: new bronze  (Read 50053 times)

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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #540 on: August 24, 2010, 05:43:02 PM »
Dan - I get what you're saying, and I don't think the language is a factor.  I'm trying to explain based on a very limited understanding of dental casting what I think they're doing, and I may have skipped some steps that they didn't address or that I didn't get to.  What's more - they may have a different language for their school of casting that could be confusing things if their terminology doesn't fully sync with yours.  Unfortunately, all these things probably make more sense in the tangible world than in words, especially since not all of us have the same practical real world experience in casting - mine is extremely limited, while George, Gary and yourself have much more experience, though possibly some different experiences, all of which can cloud what is discussed at times.

For what it's worth, based on the little I have found concerning dental casting research (including the links I gave), it's quite apparent that they do use silicone for casting, though it's not that strange if you think about it - the primary restricting factor in using silicone in casting is the cost, but casting a tooth would require significantly less silicone than casting a cannon, and people (and insurance companies) are paying out the nose for it, so the cost is negligible.  It's also probably a much easier material to use on the human mouth than many other options.  Some of the details I gave were simple regurgitations from the sources I found (like the ring to restrict expansion on a mould) - not because I understood their purpose, but more because I though you may have insight into why they would do it.

I think George was seeing where I was going, though ultimately, this may be a fruitless sidetrack.  It does seem that they have done extensive research into creating the most possible shrink correcting process and materials in attempt to cast the closest possible duplicates of teeth.  I was thinking mostly that one of you guys with more experience in casting may be interested in looking at their research and findings to see how it may apply to your casting, because if you can reduce the net shrinkage in your casting, that's one less thing to concern yourself with in the modeling phase, and because you'd be able to make duplicates with the most minimum variation from the original possible.

Have a good night Dan!

Offline dan610324

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #541 on: August 24, 2010, 06:14:36 PM »
to duplicate an original with zero shrinking is no problem if you use a high quality platinum cureing silicone

the other 3% of total shrinking you just calculate in to the design of the master
so thats no problem

but I lost you totally when you start talking about "using wax rather than gypsum silicone"
you got to have mixed up someting as bad as it can be

I have no experiance about dental lab works , but some in the jewelry casting and a little more in ordinary bronze casting
you could try to use investment for the wax casting mold made with the master if you wish
or cast some bronze in a silicone mould
they aint changeable
but all 3 are needed

Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline GGaskill

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #542 on: August 24, 2010, 10:04:40 PM »
The CaSO4/SiO2/H2O product is a rigid material that is a one shot mould and can only have a wax pattern inside since the pattern has to be melted to be removed. 

Coincidentally, I had a crown installed in the last month and the dentist took two wax impressions during the process, one of the tooth being replaced and one of the matching tooth.  Both were done in warm (soft) wax so there wasn't much temperature related shrinkage since the temp change was low.  My understanding is that plaster casts were made in the wax impressions but I don't know what happened beyond that.  I will ask next time I see him.

No silicone rubber is used in the mouth to my knowledge because the setting time is too long.  The customer just couldn't stand to sit there with the stuff in his mouth for the 6 hours or more that would be required for the rubber to reach a permanent shape.  Also, the rubber has a tendency to get into every little crack and crevice it can find and I can see the mould being stuck in the patient's mouth; funny to think about if it's someone else.

The main reason silicone rubber is used is to make a mould to make multiple wax patterns to make multiple pieces.  The rubber is good because it has very low shrinkage and gets into all kinds of crevices, it is flexible so the patterns can be removed from it without damaging them, and it is strong enough to allow many patterns to be made.

The place where the CaSO4/SiO2 process would be useful is in investing the wax patterns so that the investment compensates for the shrinkage of the wax in the rubber mould.

GG
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #543 on: August 25, 2010, 12:32:59 AM »
I was starting to think that I had misinterpreted the compound.  It is more technically a gypsum silica water mix, which I mistakenly worded a silicone.  I suppose you're right about the cooling time with silicone rubber.  Thanks for cutting through my misinformation to get to the point I was trying to make!

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #544 on: August 26, 2010, 11:46:39 AM »
work is moving along again on this howie carriage


laid out with the bolts


drilled and bolted together .


At home with the howie on it .

Just a few more tweeks ..... aging and removing the zinc plating , cutting bolts to lenght ,then on to some iron work ,or maybe copper as I really enjoyed using it on my Morko shaft .


These wheels are 10.5 " Dia. I am thinking of 18 " what do you guys think ? I will be ordering the wheels soon .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Zulu

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #545 on: August 26, 2010, 12:10:02 PM »
Gary,
10.5" to 18" is quite a jump.  Before I ordered 18" wheels I would do a mockup like you did the 10.5" wheels.  Then you could see.
Carriage looks great!  I like complicated carriages.  Lots of things going on there.
Zulu
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Offline Double D

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #546 on: August 26, 2010, 02:09:16 PM »
Either the wheels are to short or the trail/cheeks are to long.  The carriage looks to low-flat.  Taller wheels might be what's needed....Concept looks great.

Offline dan610324

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #547 on: August 26, 2010, 02:14:16 PM »
it start looking really good
painted or stain and warnish??
do a pair of otheer mock up wheels before you order anything
but it will be something extreme to be proud of later
its an beautiful design
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #548 on: August 26, 2010, 02:39:44 PM »
I'm going with 14" wheels . I did not make mock up 14 " wheels I only raised the height of the hubs with blocks of wood under the wheels . Then just looked at the angle line between the trails and the ground .

Remember this will also double as a carriage for my 1838 "The Tater38" .

Gray
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #549 on: August 26, 2010, 02:42:16 PM »
Even just doing a "leg" that gives you the 9" radius from the axle would let you know how the carriage would sit with the 18" wheels.  I think that should be about right, but the only way to really know is to try it.  Nice to see you getting some progress on this!

What style elevation mechanism are you planning to use?

(You posted your comment that you did essentially the same thing as I was posting this.)

Offline Double D

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #550 on: August 26, 2010, 02:54:51 PM »


Remember this will also double as a carriage for my 1838 "The Tater38" .

Gray

That won't work

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #551 on: August 26, 2010, 02:59:13 PM »
I think it probably will work, but it may not look quite right.  How about a picture with the Tater38 in this carriage?

Offline dan610324

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #552 on: August 26, 2010, 03:13:55 PM »
lets see it gary
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #553 on: August 26, 2010, 03:17:14 PM »
I think it probably will work, but it may not look quite right.  How about a picture with the Tater38 in this carriage?

There have been other double barrel cannons...but I think the idea is to swap barrels...won't work.   A second carriage will be built.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #554 on: August 26, 2010, 03:27:26 PM »
Gary cant do that ...... ;)



Gary

The anchor monogram colors are out of respect for Sweden .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #555 on: August 26, 2010, 04:10:13 PM »
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=18317&mh=1

This is a link to a new swivel gun support system .   :D

Anchors away baby !

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Zulu

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #556 on: August 26, 2010, 04:19:52 PM »
Gary, You need that.  I'd say go for it! ::)
Zulu
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Offline Double D

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #557 on: August 26, 2010, 04:26:37 PM »
The 38 doesn't look right on that carriage, it looks like it is set up on a stack of wood on a wagon cart.  The howie barrel  with its dolphins and flourishs on the very same carriage looks awesome.

This carriage is just too fancy for the 38.  The 36 has some very clean straight lines and this carriage over whelms the barrel.  The carriage should compliment not overpower.  Wooden Front Pintle Barbette Carriage sound perfect for the 38.




Offline GGaskill

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #558 on: August 26, 2010, 05:09:19 PM »
Nice boat and comes with trailer.  I guess a fresh water boat isn't as much of a hole in the water as a salt water one.   ;D
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #559 on: August 26, 2010, 05:50:10 PM »
Nice boat and comes with trailer.  I guess a fresh water boat isn't as much of a hole in the water as a salt water one.   ;D

34 year old racer cruiser.  Looks like it is in pretty good shape. If it weren't so far away, I volunteer to work the jib.  Ready about! Hard a lee!!!

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #560 on: August 26, 2010, 05:54:00 PM »
Fresh or salt - it's always better to have a friend with a boat than to own one.  Still, sometimes you just need something that will let you mount your cannon properly, and if you''ve got to do it, it had better have a sail.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #561 on: August 26, 2010, 05:54:46 PM »
oh yea they are all holes but I love sailboats , Mike and Tracy have almost convinced me to move her down to houston and impose on Zulu for storage . I'm not gettin any younger and any fool azced dreams got to get realized ,or at least put in motion for dreamage sake .

I've owned an airplane ,several boats ,lots of guns ....(some of which may be for sale soon)  :D

anyone want to buy a dead 401 ?  :D

I'll let her go pretty cheap about now !  ::)

Tracy wants to see the water side of some forts ,the tour boats dont go there .

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #562 on: August 26, 2010, 06:29:33 PM »
Perhaps you can give those forts a proper salute by sea? ;D

I've done a bit of salute firing from sailboats - it's always fun to man a couple cannon and some small arms on a 40 footer against a docked frigate, or to wake up a sleepy town before storming the beach! ;)

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #563 on: August 26, 2010, 07:35:36 PM »
Gulfcoast !  ;D

Let me ask you a question .

I am supposing there are marinas all along the gulfcoast with berths or moorings for transient boats aren't there ? showers and facilites ?

Gary



"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #564 on: August 26, 2010, 08:39:56 PM »
I don't know specifics (not having a boat myself), but there are plenty of places you can park your boat all along the coast.

A few year's back the HMS Bounty was moored at the St. Pete Pier, and we swept in on it with 2 cannon and about a dozen small arms, and invaded the Pier (in full privateer garb).  Put on a good free show for the patrons of the Pier for about an hour.  Unfortunately, the Bounty's captain wasn't there at the time, so the crew wasn't permitted to return fire, but everyone still had a blast!

I don't often get the opportunity to shoot from boats because I lost contact with the last person I knew that had a suitable craft for shooting off of, but if you want to sail your boat here from Colorado, I'd be glad to be a deck hand and contribute some powder and "devices" to the cause.

Here's a couple pictures from one of our more recent events that can give you an idea of how we have fun.

One of a few ships we had crews on shooting at us
http://www.tampajason.com/images/Fort-Myers-683.jpg
My friend Jerimy and his carronade (the sister to mine)
http://www.tampajason.com/images/Fort-Myers-603.jpg
Part of our line
http://www.tampajason.com/images/Fort-Myers-762.jpg
My "Barney" taking a break on the dock
http://www.tampajason.com/images/Fort-Myers-646.jpg

Offline Victor3

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #565 on: August 26, 2010, 09:23:58 PM »
"No silicone rubber is used in the mouth to my knowledge because the setting time is too long."

 I saw this on my dentist's shelf a while back...

http://www.dentalmadespa.com/?q=en/DENTAL_MANUFACTURER/DENTAL_VENTURA_DUPLICAST

 I noticed it because we use the exact same product at work for making impressions of internal features of machined parts for inspection purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_(dental)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline GGaskill

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #566 on: August 26, 2010, 10:54:41 PM »
Even a 25 minute unmoulding time would be too long for most patients.
GG
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #567 on: August 27, 2010, 11:04:09 AM »
today i roughed up the hardware and deplated it

this is what i used


here they are in the background bubbling away



here they are back to steel .


Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #568 on: August 27, 2010, 12:01:03 PM »
     Nice looking bare steel hardware, Gary.  doesn't that acid etching agent work great?  We figured if vinegar didn't work for our steel's 'furnace finish' scale, we would use that Muriatic etch!    Looks like we have a shanty-town thing going on in Mike's back yard.  Our friend Bruce the artist is grinding seriously on that old half-scale Napoleon we were given.  Now that he found his 7" angle grinder he is really removing some metal!  It looks a lot better than it did 3 days ago. 

     Gary, I love your carriage and think it is perfect for the howitzer.  They are very compatible.  Leave those bolts a little long in the area where that miniature pony fanny will be and you can spare the lash as you ply the back-roads looking for targets of opportunity.

Great looking carriage, Gary!

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline RocklockI

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Re: new bronze
« Reply #569 on: August 27, 2010, 12:11:29 PM »
I believe its an 1841  :o

the copper work starts tomorrow , wheres that nice sheet of copper you had Tracy ?

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.