Author Topic: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery  (Read 2539 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« on: April 17, 2010, 08:37:47 PM »
     We hope to get enough ideas, suggestions and historical source material from the membership to help us build a Petard which will have 4 main characteristics:          

1)   It must be historical in form or shape
2)   It must be able to be carried by 4 men
3)   The Petard must cost less than $300 to build
4)   A suitable, historical, target must be made for the Petard

     Below are a couple internet images to get us started.  The basic shape and historical context is depicted in those drawings.







     The authentic, historical target is problematic in construction and cost, although, from our reading, these mortar-like, directed force, devices were used against locked gates and doors, large and small.  Our reading suggests that Petards were usually used against side gates or back doors, where your chances of being doused with boiling oil or molten lead, were less.  It will be interesting to make and fire a Petard, something that, most likely, has not been done in 200 to 300 years.

     And, for those who want a complete explanation of the phrase, "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his own petar", from Shakespear, this phrase, or the modern equivalent, "He was hoisted with his own Petard", is explained below by a Wiki contributor who had his act together when he wrote:  
  
"Hoist with his own petard"

If a petard were to detonate prematurely due to a faulty or short slow match, the engineer would be lifted or "hoist" by the explosion. William Shakespeare used the now proverbial phrase "hoist with his own petard" in Hamlet.

In the following passage, the "letters" refer to instructions (written by his uncle Claudius, the King) to be carried sealed to the King of England, by Hamlet, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, the latter being two schoolfellows of Hamlet. The letters, as Hamlet suspects, contain a death warrant against Hamlet, who will later open and modify them to instead request the execution of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Enginer refers to a military engineer, the spelling reflecting Elizabethan stress.

    There's letters seal'd: and my two schoolfellows,
    Whom I will trust as I will adders fang'd,
    They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
    And marshal me to knavery. Let it work;
    For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
    Hoist with his own petar; and 't shall go hard
    But I will delve one yard below their mines
    And blow them at the moon: O, 'tis most sweet,
    When in one line two crafts directly meet.

After modifying the letters Hamlet escapes the ship and returns to Denmark. Hamlet's actual meaning is "cause the bomb maker to be blown up with his own bomb", metaphorically turning the tables on Claudius, whose messengers are killed instead of Hamlet. Also note here, Shakespeare's probable off-color pun "hoist with his own petar", i.e., flatulate, as reason for the spelling "petar" rather than "petard".[3]

     If you have any ideas, please post them on this thread, because we sure did appreciate all the help we received on our build of the Paixhans Monster Mortar last year.  Also the KISS principle must be vigorously followed to keep costs down and shorten build time.

We want to get this project done by July 9, 2010, so, if the big balloon can't be brought down by those balloon-buster guns being made now, we might be tempted to use the Petard for a giant shotgun.  :o :o

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline 1Southpaw

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2010, 09:16:15 PM »
I need to read more slowly , I read     "Large RETARD to be Built ........... ":D

Really I did , and I apologize for thinking Mike and Tracy had finally went over the wall .   ;D
Left Handed people are in their right mind .

Offline dan610324

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2010, 02:48:14 AM »
it sounds like if its time to ask gary for a class in wax working  ;D
a bronze petard would look much better then anything turned with welded handles
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Soot

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2010, 03:36:23 AM »
This appears to be an early version of  "Redneck Locksmith"... Watch This!, or Ye Observe!

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2010, 05:11:57 AM »
This is to be made right after you finish the Brooks  , Right ? both of them ,right .

Did you clear this with Mike ?

You were are near a deadman after the monster mortar remember .
If he needs any help with your beating I will lend him a hand .

BTW thanks for lunch yesterday !
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2010, 05:14:28 AM »
Ummm............ does anyone see this ending badly? ............  :-\

The Archaic term "Hoisted by one's own Petard" Has had little real use in modern times for several reasons......

1 they were just as dangerous to the user as to the usee,

2 there are few forts and walled cities that need breaching

3 they don't shoot anything..... they were a basic shape charge used in tearing down a structure........

Advantages in using them in modern times...........

Nobody is shooting at you while you attach this to a gate with big iron spikes........

modern fuses are more reliable so one may not be blowed up by his petard.......

should make an interesting video............

At least we know in the video we will not hear .............." Mike hold my beer and watch this"   ;D

I have always wondered how far from the gate these things landed after being fired....... I guess we will find out.........
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline dan610324

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2010, 05:53:25 AM »
yeah the forces are equal
the petard is much more light weight then the door
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 06:11:10 AM »
The structure to hold it will be just as important, if not more so, than the tube itself.  It will need to direct the force of the blast in such a way that the tube will not take flight.  Notice how the images depict 3 completely different attempts to secure the petard.  I'm not sure which of these is the best, but it will be interesting to see your progress.  Perhaps you could try all the designs to find the optimal stand for it?

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2010, 07:02:40 AM »
 First of all let's dispatch some concerns that a Petard does not meet the definition of a cannon, but rather falls into the category of destructive device.  First, it is a mortar, not a long gun.  Second, it can be fired in Exactly the same way as a mortar can be fired, as a 'Blank' fire or a 'Projectile' fire.  Third, like a mortar, it is designed specifically to be fired with a projectile.  Fourth, being an ancient, mortar-device, it's projectile does not have a more modern spherical or conical shape, but, rather a flat, disk shape, so as to be effective in transmitting its projectile's energy to the target.  If you study the two images we posted, you will see mortars, their projectile plates and the targets to be struck very clearly.  The only reason we are building one of these ancient Castle Gate Busters, is because no one else has bothered to in several hundred years and we are curious to see how they work.

     1Southpaw,   When we are about to "go over the wall", we will let you know first!  Dan,   We wish it could be made of bronze, but that would 'break the bank' or use up all our money for this project plus some, probably plus a lot!  It has to be steel.  "Redneck locksmith"? Soot,  That is rich; you have a way with words!  Very descriptive.  RocklockI,   No I didn't get this project 'cleared', but it is strictly an "after hours" project, and will not impact the vigorous Brooke build schedule.  In fact tomorrow, Monday, I am putting aside all promotion and research activities to help Mike in the shop full time.  Now we can make great progress on the Brooke cannon build.  KABAR2, all I can say in addition to what I have already said in the first paragraph here, is that we are likely to hear the Longmont, Colo. flintlock rifle shooter and bronze cannon guy probably say, "Tracy, can you hold my beer?"  Mike and I are both working on him right now to fly in to some city close to Floyd, Virginia and join us at the shoot.  We have room in the Suburban to haul his Confederate Parrott gun.  After all, you can't really expect us to LIGHT THE THING, can you???

     Dan and Allen, we have always wondered the same thing, just how far will the door-mortar recoil??  I can't even guess, but hopefully we can find out.

Any suggestions on how to build would be appreciated,

Mike and Tracy

P.S.   Gulfcoast,  We appreciate very much your comments and suggestions.  Our research started almost 8 years ago when Mike and I were thinking of what else to do if we established Seacoast Arty., with it's, likely low numbers, of production cannon, Magnificent Seacoast Gun Series.  You are correct, the hooks and rope or bi-pod and ropes or whatever the support method, IS important, and will have to be tested before the target busting occurs.  Thank you!
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dan610324

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2010, 07:29:14 AM »
what size will it be ?
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Online Double D

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2010, 07:36:37 AM »
     
 
 
  Also the KISS principle must be vigorously followed to keep costs down and shorten build time.

 
Mike and Tracy

Not one to be tied down with tedious detail and ancient historical references; in fairness I did read the whole post again as some sort of recollection of past history seemed to be echoing in my head...the second read did it for me.   I edited your post down the the critical element.  Using the Magical, mystical , mythical search engine  GAGGLE.com I finally found the answer....

There was an ancient french family Folgre who conducted and constructed  petards using KISS.   Using the babelfish french to english translator I translated the french to english description and found- Folgre, anglicized to Folger pioneered the KISS concept petard.  The instruction were so simple that I made one this morning...I wanted to test it but the wife threaten injury to by back side if I did.

Here is what I came up with.



A bit of silliness on my part, but that really is what a petard is!

Offline Zulu

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2010, 07:46:50 AM »
How original do you want to be with the "support"?
Heavy timbers could run into some money.  If the petard was mounted on top of a 55 gallon barrel it could be moved with some ease into the firing position.  Then the barrel could be filled with water to give it considerable weight.  When fired, the worst that could happen would be the barrel falls over, but even that could probably be prevented with 2 back braces..  When finished, drain the water, unbolt the petard, and carry all back to the truck.  An interface mount would have to be devised to mount the barrel to the drum.  It might take a little thought but it could be done quite easily I think.
Zulu
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www.jmelledge.com

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2010, 09:25:24 AM »
This appears to be an early version of  "Redneck Locksmith"... Watch This!, or Ye Observe!

Ale was probably involved.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2010, 10:49:56 AM »
what would a little spanking do ??
fire it DD   ;D
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2010, 10:51:58 AM »
By Hoist they may mean raised to heaven   Literaly or religous wise ? Or both
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2010, 12:51:23 PM »
     Dan,    The size we are thinking about is between 100 and 200 pounds.  It has to be big enough and strong enough to handle 2 to 3 pounds of cannon grade BP.  The power ratio exhibited by ancient serpentine powder (mechanically mixed ingredients only) and modern, 'moist rolled, caked, crushed and sifted powder' is roughly 1:3.  So 2 Lbs. should provide the power of approx. 6 Lbs. back in the 1500s.

     That thing, Double D, looks far more dangerous than anything we can build!  I like your translation logic; it's very complete and totally dispels the notion I had about Folgre being the famous Coffee manufacturers.  You have given us evidence of the essential essence of the KISS Principle.  Bravo!

     The barrel idea is intriguing, Zulu, but we will probably try the very simple wood stand depicted in the second drawing.  Made of pine and painted all thread, it could be done for little money and little time.  However, with you being much closer to the nation's whiskey making region than we are, please keep your eyes peeled for a large used barrel for sale.

     Terry, as you well know, fighting men have used ale or spirits of many different descriptions to fortify themselves before and during battle over the ages.  This work, with all of it's obvious dangers, would have probably prompted a nip or two on the road to the Castle Gate!

     Dan,   Spanking is the least of his worries, because, unless I am turned around in my recollection, I believe THAT door is her kitchen door.  Hell hath no rath like a woman's, whose Kitchen you have destroyed!!  Double D, I would advise AGAINST firing that thing, but if you do and the kitchen goes the way of the door, I would do an inventory of gardening tools with sharp edges and all the kitchen knives you can still find, before going to sleep every night.   :o :o

     Gary,   I believe 'hoist' means literally, as in "Blown Upward", not necessarily to heaven, either.

Tracy and Mike
    
    
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dan610324

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2010, 01:49:07 PM »
it would still be interesting to see the result   ;D 
as long as I dont need to pay for the damages   ::)
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline BoomLover

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2010, 02:03:28 PM »
Mike & Tracy...your last picture looks for all the world like a Mortar, with the trunnions, therefore designed to be used for multiple purposes...fire at the wall as a mortar 'till you see it isn't working, then bring it up and mount it like shown on the stand...fire! And recover for future multiple use. Ingenius!  BoomLover
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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2010, 02:14:21 PM »
the first example of an EFP Explosively Formed Projectile  even if the "mortar" remains intact i would worry about the legality of if , other than that Must have video of it in action

i dont think the originals remained intact on firing i suspect shrapnel went in every direction  hense "Hoist on his petard"

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2010, 03:03:26 PM »
 
  is that we are likely to hear the Longmont, Colo. flintlock rifle shooter and bronze cannon guy probably say, "Tracy, can you hold my beer?"  Mike and I are both working on him right now to fly in to some city close to Floyd, Virginia and join us at the shoot.  We have room in the Suburban to haul his Confederate Parrott gun.  After all, you can't really expect us to LIGHT THE THING, can you???

 

Mike and Tracy

 

Well Roanoke Regional Airport would be the best bet to get him there....... the big question is price.... I checked with one carrier and they have
flights there from Colorado with a connecting flight. Just tell him not to say things like "Hi Jack" even if that's the fellows name.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2010, 04:30:39 PM »
I can't believe the petard was anything more than a onetime use weapon.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2010, 05:01:26 PM »
     I'm just going to post a few pics of items we have available to use and maybe that will spark some ideas as to Petard construction which will not cost too darn much $.  Please remember everyone that we only do things which are safe, sane and repeatable.  Belt-fed frog, if we thought, even for a moment, that what we were building was merely a one-use, fragmenting type device, we would stop immediately and discontinue all efforts along those lines.  When you see the pics, you will have a good idea what we are thinking of using.  repeatability is one of our Petard requirements, that means it has to not only be intact, but also undamaged and it will have a 100% chance of fullfilling that requirement or the whole project will be immediately halted.

     Dan,   Nothing will be damaged unless it is the target.  People and property will have absolute safety, or it's a NO-GO, Period.

     Would everyone please read what BoomLover wrote?  That is exactly what we are talking about.  Proven, reusable, multi-purpose and safe if ordinary precautions are taken.  Does any one know any federal cannon rule which specifies how far away from the target your mortar/Petard has to be?  I didn't think so.

     KABAR2,    Allen, we will remind him not to use words on the hearing list.  It's like a watch list, but is different.  I once knew a class-clown that got in big trouble for saying the words, "Explosive Peanuts" when a ticket agent asked him, "What's in the jar, Sir?"
Word meanings ARE important; they were even important 40 years ago!

Mike and Tracy

The Chamber-piece of the Monster Mortar is available with a little dis-assembly.



The tube of the 1797 is available.


What say you?
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2010, 05:05:47 PM »
I'm waiting for the comparison in effectiveness.  (Between SA's model and DD's model.)

In the army we had green bag powder and white bag powder - the green bag shot further.

DD's looks like red bag. 

OK, now DD.  WE MUST SEE PICTURES OF SMOKE AND FLAME!!!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2010, 05:09:30 PM »
M&T,

If the chamber is used you could use the existing bolt holes to attach a collar to which
would allow mounting to your target will it hold enough powder?


Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2010, 09:40:15 PM »


Douglas; I like the concept of the 'Mocha Mine', but it looks like you've got enough fuse there to jump in your ride and make it all the way to Ernie's place before it went off.  :D
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2010, 02:43:05 AM »
All I know I'm not answering that door! :o
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2010, 04:57:57 AM »
For the record that is the door to my shop, not to the wife's kitchen..you think I am stupid or something?  I don't mess with that women! She does to many things to make my life pleasant and is fully schooled in dispensing misery.

And,  it's a theatrical prop; longer fuse greater drama!!!

Tracy,  based on the line drawings, I do not think the petard was robust enough survive more than one shot.  Sometime back right here on this board some one posted pictures from the Royal Artillery Museum at Woolwich pictures of several petards...I thought, but sure can't find with search.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,75368.0.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard



There I no doubt in my mind that a mortar or cannon, can be used as a petard, and survive the blast, it was was done.

But I am not convinced that a petard built to petard dimensions would surive...so convince me!

Offline Soot

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2010, 07:06:47 AM »
It appears these thing were used as late as WW2.
I found some more pics, this one is 19th century via Wiki.

Another Wiki pic here
Obviously created before the technological advance of fence climbing, or working with the theory of " It's better to blow something up than it is to walk around"

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2010, 07:59:51 AM »

.. The Chamber-piece of the Monster Mortar is available with a little dis-assembly.

.. The tube of the 1797 is available.

What say you?

Wait, let me see if I am reading this correctly. You will destroy one or the other or these pieces in the process?

I say stop now.

I too am of the opinion that the petard was not reusable, and that a reproduction based on your specifications won't last long, if it even survives the first shot.

Mines are not reusable, bombs are not reusable. I liken the petard to these devices.

This is a lose-lose situation.

Of course if I'm reading you wrong, nevermind.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Large PETARD to be Built by Seacoast Artillery
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 09:39:16 AM »

.. The Chamber-piece of the Monster Mortar is available with a little dis-assembly.

.. The tube of the 1797 is available.

What say you?

Wait, let me see if I am reading this correctly. You will destroy one or the other or these pieces in the process?

I say stop now.

I too am of the opinion that the petard was not reusable, and that a reproduction based on your specifications won't last long, if it even survives the first shot.

Mines are not reusable, bombs are not reusable. I liken the petard to these devices.

This is a lose-lose situation.

Of course if I'm reading you wrong, nevermind.
I believe you are right if built like the originals the wall thickness seems rather thin but the blast will be wanting to travel
the path of least resistance which in theory should be the wooden door/gate......

I sugested using the chamber with little modification as due to it's mass it would be reusable, and could be returned to
it's original use when done.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium